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This line has always grated on my nerves, though I could never put my finger on why. I think I've worked it out. These young players have never known anything else other than playing football. They go from being at school, training in the afternoon and playing footy with their mates on the weekend, to ditching school and just stepping up the training. At what stage do they get to learn about hard work and professionalism? In any other industry, there's no such thing as a professional 18-21 year old. Other 18-21 year olds are either still studying, or undertaking an apprenticeship or traineeship, and very few of them will have taken on their chief hobby as a career. I don't think I started to resemble a professional in my field until I was 25. This just shows why it's doubly important for leaders of the club to show the way. They must show the young players how it must be done, and pull them in to line when they step out of it, and show what it is to be professional. Otherwise their career will just be a permanent extension of their time at school, kicking around with their mates. I think in writing this post I've almost convinced myself that the minimum draft age should be 21 too.

And some supporters are happy to pass on Viney if the price is too high when he's a leader and the one guy that will wring every last effort out of his body to be the best he can be ? A guy that has dominated every competition he's been in til now since he was 9 years old ? A guy that played in a premiership with Trengove and Tapscott at school when he was 14 and they were 17 ? A guy that in his last game for Casey had more hard ball gets in his second full game than any other player on his way to 24 disposals ? This club has finally been kissed on the dick to get him.

Who has treated him with disdain? I hope you're not referring to the MFC, the club who showed faith in him by bringing him to the club, the club that's paid him extremely well for however many years he's been there, the club that elevated him to the vice captaincy (only to for him to make a mockery of it with his booze fuelled buffoonery), the club that selected him in 19 games this season for absolutely bugger all return. Let Brent Moloney start taking responsibility for Brent Moloney.

Rangey's 2013 R1 side: Backs: no-one Halfbacks: McDonald Mids: Jones Half forwards: Howe Forwards: Clark Rucks: no-one Interchange: no-one Coach: Neeld

Here it is... An all-round impressive lad. Let's hope that the likes of Clark are a sign of things to come at the MFC.

Since when does the number of posts affect the legitimacy of the point being made ? Extraordinary post.

The recruitment of Clark was amazing for a number of reasons. But what gives me the most confidence about it, is that clearly Neeld and co. can spot talent. Many scoffed when we chased him, many things were said. But he has turned out exactly as Neeld and co. wanted

It's been a bit of a pattern recently Chook, but that's almost word for word what I thought when I heard those quotes from Green. Jarka may be right about leading a horse to water, but I'm of the view that most young people in an environment like that would listen if told by senior figures to pull their heads in. Especially if it was regularly being reinforced by the rest of the leadership.

Let's see ... - Jamar for Spencer because Jacobs spanked Spencer last week - Fitzpatrick the goalkicker in for Green forward - Tynan in for Strauss back - they're vying for that role. "Strange and dumb" for you - but makes sense to me.

Have a think about the positive side of this crap for a moment. I have no idea whether it's true, but if it is, it's now history and can't be changed. 'Witch hunting' is pointless. The positive view is that there might be far more upside in the current playing group than many of us thought. Get rid of the poor influences, change the poor attitdes, introduce some new blood, and demand high standards. If Neeld can do this (and I believe he is the man for the job), then the future may not be as bleak as many around here are forecasting.

Im affraid what youre not quite grasping is that under Bailey weplayed a poor type of football quite well ( at times ) this gave us the equivalent of false positives as outcomes. We had reached our known Zenith...and eventally also found our Nadir !! Under Neeld we are attempting to play a much better brand of football but arent able to do it very well to date resulting in the losses we have witnessed. The paths taken are diametrcally opposite. One will eventually lead to sustained success where as the other was a recipe for prolonged mediocrity verging on delusion.

Love Jordie. Plays for the jumper and gives his all, but very limited footballer. I'd consider keeping him as a depth tagger in the next few years. Currently though he is a walk up starter due to our ordinary midfield.

He went for a swim in his piles of dirty [censored] cash.

Has Jones? What tripe. You are losing some fans of late, RR. I would get off the net, go outside for a couple days and try and see the forest you are in. Jordie Mac is doing fine.

All I can say is ... pass judgement on Neeld in year's time. Even then, don't expect miracles. Neeld is teaching these Dean Bailey downhill skiiers how to climb Everest and you expect him to do it one year? They haven't even reached Base Camp yet. THat comes when Neeld gets to re-shape the list this post-season.

I hope Neeld cuts a frigging swathe through the list. Cut the ones with inferior talent and trade the lazy pricks. This club has had the worst playing culture in the AFL. I feel sorry for supporters that get emotionally invested in this rabble. The good news is that Neeld, Craig and co have had 12 months to formulate a plan to finally get players with talent and leadership into the club and [censored] off the dead wood. It can start with a third round pick for Moloney as compensation for FA. I look at the Brisbane Football club as an example. We have virtually the same number of 100 game players. We have virtually the same number of 50 game players. Yet they'll finish on 11 wins. And this despite the fact that they had to embark on a major rebuild from 2006 after their premiership era. They have only 3 premiership geriatrics remaining on their list. What right do they have to be better then us ? FFS, our best player even came from them. The reason they're better is that we've had one mid who has had a good year and they've got Rich, Rockliff, Redden, and Black. The first 3 have played between 50-100 games. Our only decent mid that has played 50-100 games is Trengove and he's had a disappointing year. All four of their best mids have averaged over 21 possessions per game. Grimes has played a mixture of back and midfield, but hasn't had a preseason as a mid. And they've got a far better playing culture with Brown still leading the way. MFC = terrible culture, no stars, poor recruiting, and the worst midfield in the competition. Thank God this year and era is over. I consider 2013 a fresh start and an opportunity to start getting thigs right.

I think this has been a flow on culture issue from the past culture that grew from the late 90's, with that footy dept, our spoilt core players, & a keep on the track at all costs so don't tackle or chase attitude. It's seems it's been adopted by the younger players on easy money. IMO the tail has been wagging the dog, & the Tail is still trying to hang on to power. This is why we need to clear out the old passive guard of our club and bring in some vets with intensity & a strong desire for doing the hard yards & implementing the successful attitudes. I know the Coaches will be trying to shift the culture but you also need some players to come in & command respect,,, & to instill the winning ways into a soft group.

No...I WILL blame the players. They are supposed to be professional full time footballers, and if this is true each and every one of those involved must go.What an absolute total stuff up. Is this why 22 looks as if he can't give a stuff this year? Send a rocket up where it hurts , Neeld and Missen. Those who don't like it, pi$$ off now.

I find it amazing that a former captain would talk about his team-mates' lack of professionalism as though he had no power to change it. If it were me, I'd be saying "When I became captain of the Melbourne Football Club, I took it as a fantastic opportunity to stamp out any hints of unprofessionalism within the playing group. It took time, but I knew it was my job to guide the rest of my team-mates and improve their perfomance as much as I could my own." Brad Green = Not a Leader.

Pity Green wasn't harder on the list when he was playing. Love Brad, but he is not a natural leader. Wise but not a leader.

"Jurrah his family came first then footy" The big boss, AD said the same thing about family the other night "Old Dee", I guess it's all over for him too. Gillon gets the gig. Sheedy said the same thing yesterday on the radio in relation to Mark Williams, family comes first if he wants to move back to Melbourne for family reasons we won't stand in his way. Will never coach again. Mick says about family coming first but I'm guessing he will be a bit more selfish than that and will coach despite them not wanting him too. I know things haven't been great with Jurrah but I really hope he and the club decide he has a future at Melbourne. If he comes through the other side committed to football then we will have a very special player. That commitment should not preclude him from putting family first as I'm sure we all do.

I heard they used to knick behind the bushes for a smoke and a beer then catch a cab up the Anderson St Hill wearing false moustaches and suits.They would get to a house and change into their running gear and then spray water on themselves and jog up to the finish line pretending to be puffed. Then they'd all go back and plan how to throw the next match. It's nearly fact-I heard it in a pub from some bloke.

Is that sort of like saying - " I'm not gay but I've kissed a bloke who is" ?

I know it's stating the obvious, but Clark's been worth every dollar of the investment the club made, despite the season ending injury.. Some of our players should just watch the big man in action to learn what the term 'ultra-competitive spirit' means.

sad news indeed... or as Maynard G would have said, "wow, that's rough Riff!".

Would love a list of the top 10 aliases and/or posters with multiple posting names. Perhaps we could do a poll?

Given that the Board were about to sack Schwab last year, what has Schwab done since then that could possibly justify giving him a three year contract now? A number of people have commented here about how Schwab appears to have taken the criticisms levelelled against him on board. He has stayed right away from matters football and has been very impressive in dealing with the raft of problems which this difficult year has presented the club. Given his patchy record, how does it benefit the club to give Schwab a three year contract instead of a standard ongoing employment contract with a notice period? Yet another loaded question because you presume his record has been patchy. Given the level of satisfaction with his performance during the notice period, the Board has deemed him worthy of a term of three year period. Further details can be obtained by sending a respectful letter of enquiry to the Board or asking the question at the AGM. Now that HSOG has been provided with a response, could somebody please close the thread?

mckenzie bust his chops every game. if we are talking about proffesionalism, he has it in spades. Not the most sjkillful bloke going around but as suggested, he is one of the best shut down players going around. the job he did on goddard earlier in the year was sublime. the problem in the midfield is class. get a few like that in there and jordie can focus on what he does best.

Jordie's not part of the problem he's part of the solution.

Surely you are kidding.

I'm leaning towards believing it simply because most of the team is weak and unfit.

The fact that Magner and Sellar were recruited was, in part, because both demonstrated the opposite of this culture, as in hunger, humility and a commitment to do the work required to prepare for the AFL.

I understand that last year (and in previous years) MFC did not have enough support staff to properly supervise the weights sessions. However apparently one of the benefits of an increase in support staff is the ability to keep a watchful eye on the various training sessions. Neeld, Craig and Misson are not fools and I'm sure they are accutely aware of what's going on in and around the club: who's pulling his weight and who isn't! We shall all have a very good idea of who's a slacker and who isn't by the end of November!

Not only is this agenda boring, it is so effing moot. Scwab has got three years. Why hasn't Gardner and his pals stopped this evil? You can have your 'facts' and your 'righteous indignation' and you can continue to howl at the moon. What good has it done? Gardner is poison to MFC supporters after his 'assertions over tanking' a few months ago. Who will lead your charge, hazy? Who will lead the revolution?

This is completely and totally unsubstantiated, I haven't seen the topic starter come back on and 'justify' some of his/her comments, as another poster said, the topic raiser seems down on everything Melbourne, and it did open the door for some of his/her fellow naysayers on this board to join in.......unless you are there everyday what would 'we' know....they don't pump weights every single day.......and last time I looked Cronk is a Storm player not Demons, so how would he know what sort of daily program each player has.......this is rubbish perpetuated by the usual suspects

MM is going to take Carltank to the cleaners. My guess would be he agreed with the Wobbles not to coach this year and has been paidout on the agreement. That would last until the end of the season, let me see oh yes October. So he is not talking to anyone (officially) until then. Meanwhile the Carlton who have not spoken to him and have nowhere else to go just have to sit a wait whilst MM works out just how big his paper bag will be. They have not thought through just how much he will cost him directly and indirectly (arizona, facilities, new coaches, and players). Eddie will slowly increase the pressure, first Judd, then MM is a stress ball, next shouldn't the tanking inquiry extend to Carltank, followed by they are asking all their mid tier players to take a haircut to fit more in the cap.All the defensive stuff he needs to do to spike Cloke and MM taking other wobbles assets. In the words of paul Keating Eddie is looking forward to doing him slowly. The upside for us is they need to clear the way for cloke someone has to go and that opens up the trade table a bit more.

Has anyone thought that maybe Greeny as Captain last year aware of the unprofessionalism at the Club should have stood up to those who were unprofessional. Why complain about it now when being Captain you are charged with the right to pull those players up or at least show by his own actions. Unfortunately maybe Greeny was too weak a leader to do the former. If that is the case then the 2 Jacks are going to find it difficult to change the attitude of any senior player with a soft attitude. It is slowly becoming all so clear how massive a job Neeld was handed at the beginning of the year. Not only were we seriously unfit but worse some of the senior players were leading the way with the bad attitude. You cant blame the younger players when they see players who they should be looking up to doing what they were doing. Neeld is like a breath of fresh air and it will take time to clear the stench.

Watch their websites tv and they are the same. All clubs' players stuff around in the players lounge when they're not doing sessions.

The storm used to train at Princes park sharing with Cartton, & there training maentor taught the Storm & Judd some jiujitsu moves and holds & chokes & wrestling moves. Cronk would know how AFL players need to workout for endurance & power. It would be similar to Billy Slaters workouts. He runs a fair bit & is very fit. so when he says he noticed how we go about it, since we are now nearly a year into sharing AAMI stadium & facilities with them. He would have noticed. Honesty isn't our enemy, slackness is.

Gys was spotting for him .

All except Scully are on record speaking about MFC players lack of profesisionalism..... All of them are in the industry so yea I will listen to their comments and formulate an opinion on that.... You can choose to bury your head in the sand and call this a beat up - but maybe just maybe our ladder position is in indication of how poor of an attitude this list has and their attituted is a reflection of the output on the field. Kind of ironic they are near GWS and GC isn't it who have such low experience and condition for AFL standard.....You seem to be blody happy with the past few years efforts by the boys - we'll i am fuckin not....... There is an old saying hardnut - where the is smoke there is fire - make all the smart ass comments you want but our recently retired club champion hasn't stopped talking about the lack of professionalism at this club

stuie wtf..?? wonder what everyone felt about you when you had 28 posts no need for the personal attack! i actually believe him because you only have to look at our performance on the field and brad green coming saying some young players dont put in the hard yards. even jmmy stynes knew our players were too lazy.

You'll like this from Knightmare Deers. "I really value what Viney brings to the table. He strikes me as a culture changer. He is one of those few rare guys who from season one will really strike fear in the minds of the opposition and I expect with his attack on the ball and agression that it will really influence others to follow his example. He is one of those types where you want him on your team and his competitiveness and hardness rates up there and in my view exceeds that of Joel Selwood and Luke Hodge. I have plenty of faith in Viney and have seen more than enough of him over the past two years to be sold on his game. But it's these intangibles that really puts him ahead of the others in my mind."

I'm pretty certain that I am emotionally, physically and spiritually in love with Mitch Clark. He is the bestest thing to have happened to our club in a shitload of time. Just please please please let his foot heal properly!

To be honest I'm all but lost for words. How could this have been so ?! Any wonder theres been the need for such a steep learning and re-education curve. Im dumbfounded

I caught up with an old mentor from my Carey Grammar days today. We spoke at length about school footy and in particular young Jack. What I loved to hear was that he indeed went out of his way to get under Wojcinski's grill. What jockey-sized schoolboy tries to rough up a disgruntled 31-year-old Geelong Cat and (psychologically) succeeds? If he falls to a second round pick then I'll be thrilled for the FD. Having said that I'll be equally as happy if he is taken at pick 3. "Culture changer" is an apt description of Jack. But he can't do it alone so that's where we need to get 3 and / or 4 + 13 right.

Thrilled to see Fitz in the side. I really hope they use him as a forward and not just a backup ruck. He's worked really hard at Casey, his game is improving and he deserves the chance. Also, watching Tynan play last Saturday, he looks to have a really good build for an AFL player. He's bulking up nicely and I think he may turn out to be a bargain given he was taken in the third round. I think playing Jamar is basically self-defence. If we go up against Freo with Spencer in the ruck they will demolish us.

Bit of symmetry for Josh Tynan playing the first and last game of the year. Gysberts is interesting, would have thought he had done enough to deserve a call up. Hopefully Neeld is just putting high demands on him to lift in certain areas as I would hate to see him traded. Big preseason for him coming up.

Bloody Jordie. He's keeping all the Cotchins and Fyfes we have tearing it up at Casey out of the side. Land sucks sometimes...

Just when I thought we were running out of players to bag, up comes Soidee with McKenzie; perhaps we could start a thread bagging Clark for his less than stellar second half of the season, or Jones for constantly falling one or two short of the 30 possessions per game mark.