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I have no idea why I'm bothering, but you choose to pick on Jones of all players? He is far and away our best player this year and has been superb. The one holding the ball decision that was payed against him yesterday was a complete disgrace. As are you.

He was lamentable yesterday. No intensity whatsoever. I read in the "optomists" thread that he's one of the positives to have come out of the year. I couldn't disagree more. We're desperate for a quality key forward, which is why Jesse Hogan is a must, and we have a former no. 1 draft pick who's 196 cm's and about to end his 4th year. Watts trained all preseason as a forward, but after a poor start ended up at Casey on a wing. Finally the club decided to send him back to play a sweeper, or intercept role. He spends his time guarding smalls. It's actually pretty embarrassing. He's a tall Bryce Gibbs. To be a quality key forward you need to have courage in the air and intensity. Watts has neither. Jeremy Howe has courage in the air. Mitch Clark has courage in the air. Watts doesn't. I don't expect Watts to split packs, as it's clear he's not that type of player, but I do expect intensity, courage in the air and a player that embraces physical contact. Watts hates physical contact. Watts will probably play 200 games and many of them will be "nice", but he's a disastrous pick one. Did I want him at pick one ? Absolutely. I was wrong. I know they'll be the cries, "but he's only 21" and "talls take time", which is all very true, but I've seen more than enough of how he plays to know that he doesn't have the competitive streak required to succeed as a key forward. I watched him play for Casey Seconds years ago and the alarm bells started ringing. Even then he would pick and choose which contests he was prepared to enter. He plays the game on his own terms and won't remove himself from a very defined comfort zone. If those in charge at Melbourne don't trade for Jesse Hogan in this year's mini draft they're nutjobs. He's 17, 193/4 cm's, and already 91 kilos. He'll be 19 for the 2014 season and will impact straight away. He has explosive pace off the mark, he splits packs, he loves physical contact, he has courage in the air, he's aggressive, he's a great mark, and his playing style is similar to Jonathan Brown. Put simply, he's everything Watts isn't. Hogan at CHF and Clark at FF will dominate backlines for years. You only had to see Walker and Tippett to see the value of two big key forwards.

Bailey was flawed and was not going to get a contract extension in 2011 for 2012 and beyond. The manner of his sacking was poor but ultimately it was the right decision. But the smouldering wreck he had taken from him was no worse that the smouldering wreck he inherited at the end of 2007. Worse still its clear that Bailey played to the company line and sacrificed the W/L for draft picks and the future FMD, this year there is a boom recruit (Clark), a competent head of FD (Craig). Money spent on development of players and what have we done? After following this club for 40 years, I am struggling to remember a worse standard of football than this year. The performance and our lader position is an embarrassment. We beat 3 development teams and one Victorian team that treated the game like a bye. You cant gloss it, MFC have gone backwards big time. In the past 2 years, Bailey had 8.5 wins. I cant work why the tawdy revisionism and denigration of a past coach and his record when the current scenario is so putrid. Neeld's year has been so bad that he cant afford to shred the MFC brand any further with development which is clearly needed. Next season he needs to coach with a short term horizon and a not a long term view if he is to survive. We have alot of younger players that still need time to mature. You cant rush it. Given we so poor under the existing coach, I cant fathom the need to continually skewer Bailey

maybe rangey could start up a poll on this yes/no/not-sure ?

Some of you clowns amaze me. Newsflash: bar the expansion sides we are the worst side in the competition. Jones aside (& Clark for half a season), nobody has lifted their game at all this year. Nobody. By that measure nothing on the list is that 'special'. The stat about his lack of disposals made me giggle, barely any of our players average 20 or more disposals. I see Trengove as a potential Jimmy Bartel, plenty of dickwits were writing him off as too slow in his 3rd season too. He was even dropped to the VFL & mooted as potential trade bait. The kid had nothing special. 3 premierships, a Brownlow & Norm Smith, 7 years later for 'nothing special'... JT is arguably ahead of Bartel at the same stage of his career (albeit playing in a far worse team) I have high hopes he can achieve nearly half of what Bartel has by the end of it.

I don't think you fully appreciate the task that Mark Neeld has been given. For Chris Scott, his task was to take a dual premiership team choc full of talent and experience, and tweak their fitness training and to get them playing less down the corridor. Mark Neeld in contrast, has had to spend his first preseason giving the players a training programme that will 'GET US' to AFL standards of fitness in 2 years. That's coming from Dave Misson, one of the most highly credentialed fitness trainers in this country... He has had to actually teach the playing group 'defensive principles' that have been ingrained in other playing groups for YEARS. Due to the fact the playing groups level of fitness was not AFL standard, and getting this aspect on track was given priority, time normally spent on 'teaching structures' and 'gameplan' was neglected until the start of the season. He has inherited an extremely unbalanced and inexperienced playing list, with senior players who have been found wanting under a tougher regime, and youngsters who have not been properly developed previously. The group of players 25 years+ are widely regarded as the worst in the competiton with the least effective leadership of any AFL club. The fact we appointed a 20 year old as a captain should illustrate this point if it wasn't already obvious. Players are clearly playing 'tired' because most of them are still adjusting to the spike in expectations required from a fitness perspective, and this seems to have had an adverse affect on performance in games to some extent. Aside from these hurdles, Mark Neeld has been charged with changing the ENTIRE culture of the football club. I've heard from various sources that opposition perception of the 'Bailey gameplan', was that it was good for 8-10 wins a season, but wouldn't hold up to being a 'finals football' gameplan. We could smack teams off the park when they weren't switched on with one-way flair heavy football, but when sides structured up well against us, and didn't allow us the time and space to operate, we had absolutely no counter. So essentially, it was a gameplan ineffective against good sides, which is surprising considering our 'giant killing' status between 2008-2011. You are being unrealistic.

agreed, if he found bailey hard, well just imagine misson/neeld

I voted that we got it right between these two due to the fact that there is no way Natanui would still be here if we had drafted him in 08. As well as that Natanui is a supreme athlete but average footballer; poor skills and still struggles to read the play. However if it was Watts vs other players of that draft of course we could have got it right-er or wrong-er, just like every draft.

The mother of all Miss Understandings.

"Much disrespect shown to Brad Green by playing the Adelaide theme song while he was being chaired from the ground. Thanks MCC" Posted this message on MCC Facebook page last night and received this reply. Melbourne Cricket Club Hi Kathleen. Thanks for the feedback. We agree with you. While the scoreboard operators were right to play the winning team's song after the game, which is the directive from the AFL, the decision to play it during Brad Green's departure from the field was inappropriate. We'll be discussing this with them in our event review.

Yep and after all these years I've decided to go home to my wife. I'd take a second rounder.

I saw a team which has strength, size, speed and skill. Adelaide is what Melbourne should be aspiring to. Even Adelaide's quickest players, such as Dangerfield, have legs like tree trunks. No wonder Watts, Frawley and Tregove were smashed. Comparatively, they've got legs like matchsticks. And now I think I understand why Mark Neeld brought Neil Craig to Melbourne. Only three Melbourne players were physically the size of the Adelaide players - Sylvia, Sellar and MacDonald. None of them had their primary development years under Dean Bailey and his fitness team. And I thought Sylvia and Sellar could hold their heads up high. Sellar is not the most skilled player but he at least matched his opponents for physical strength and won many contested marks because of it. Two more years of pain while we build up the strength and size of our players should put us in a much better position.

I'm not saying anything or Range Rover will start a poll on it.

any chance of a public apology from the MCG over re-starting the Crows song while they chaired Green off? or am I the only one who cared? Good to see them pitching in for the farce that this year has been for us I guess

Given the product the guy is trying to sell, he's done an amazing job to get any money from anyone! Fair crack mate.

PS. I'm only posting this because I think it's funny. Not because I believe anyone is 'evil'

Desk manufacturers of the world rejoice !

What if Twisties were made of Lego?

Look, I'm a very open minded person and I'm just waiting for you to persuade me with a good argument. The "he's injured" explanation isn't perfect, but it's at least grounded in logic. Fact 1: He wasn't slow last year or the year before. Fact 2: He's slow this year. Something's changed between years 1 and 2 and year 3, so anyone who thinks logically will want to understand what's changed. Potential causes? I can't see any other than injury, body not yet up to the increased workload, et cetera et cetera. Your argument seems to be: "it's not injury, it's some other thing that I don't know what and anyone who can't see that sleeps with a teddy bear by their pillow". It doesn't stand up to the reasonability test. Unless you can give me something to go on, you can't expect any points for credibility from me, or anyone else wading through the pages of this thread just waiting to be convinced.

Good job Ben, let's focus on everything that Watts in not. Did he have a say in the type of player we hoped he would become? All he can do is play the roles he is told to play, lift the weights he is told to lift, and eat the sh!t that he is told to eat. He could do all that, and do it well, yet it STILL wouldn't satisfy you because he may not be the KPF that you wanted him to be. Get over it. Neeld will drop him if he thinks is form deserves it.

For mine, its not so much about the fact that he actually left. Ward, Ablett, Harbrow etc all did the same.....and if someone dangled 6 mill in front of me Id find it hard to say no to as well. So, I don't blame him for taking the money and going.... as tough as it was to lose a no 1 pick. Its the system etc etc. we got compensated well. What I really do still feel [censored] about is the WAY he left. Its not even the "He lied to Jim" thing...although that sucks too. But by what he said and inferred (and by what he DIDNT say and thereby allowed to be inferred) was that he left because of our "culture", because we sacked Bailey, because he didn't believe we would ever be successful etc. None of the other teams that lost players got tarred that way...we did because of how he ( read his management team) handled it. All he had to do was say the money was irresistible, sorry everyone Im out of here. MFC great place...hard to leave..part of my heart etc. Instead of that, he tried to protect his arse, make himself look like a golden uber professional and make the club look like it sucked. Thats the road he chose and the pain he left behind him and why its left an ongoingly sour taste. I think we did well out of the trade but the slur he left hurt us.

Reading this thread is like watching the extended edition Blue ray box set of "The shire" with interviews and the director's narration included.

How bout a poll voting on ranga's we took and ranga's we missed out on? That'd be good.

I'm still spewing about missing out on Casey Sibosado.

All you have done is throw up a bunch of names without showing relevance to the players in the missed list. You have also looked at it from a worst case perspective. For example We missed out on Riewoldt because we chose Frawley. I would still take Chip regardless of the quality of Jack. Instead of Mclean (Gysberts) and Sylvia we could have taken any of Farren Ray, Kepler Bradley, Kane Tenace, Raph Clarke, David Trotter or Ryley Dunn who were the next 5 chosen. The 5 after Dunn were Pattison, McQualter, Wood, Willits, Polo, Would you give up Nathan Jones for Birchall, Hurn, Varcoe or Douglas? Granted they are quality but I dont think I would trade him for any of them. For the team you say we missed I could give you a team of players you would be ecstatic we missed instead. We have made some poor choices but so have every club. You could argue the flag favourites in Hawthorn have missed more with first round picks than most.

I know CEOs take longer than ruckmen to develop but when is he going to put on some weight. Talk about skinny project sign-ons!

but can he hold down a KPF role?

RR started it because the commentators were ejaculating all over their microphones during the game on the telly. Yes looks great flying through the air, missed two easy set shots and handball/kicking effiiciency was 53%, but hey he's the Messiah Again he has a big guy called Cox sharing the ruck duties and there was no Darren Jolly Yes he will be a really good player....but the overkill bores me

Because he coached a group of young players & taught them nothing about tactics, accountability or work rate. He was a supposed development coach yet hardly developed any players to the standard they should be at. He may have got the team 8.5 wins last year but it was evident from the results against West Coast, Western Bulldogs & Geelong last year to name a few that he had NFI idea about what he was doing.

FFS talk about comparing apples with oranges, Range Rover have I missed the declaration on first prize for starting the most number of threads for the season. Similar to the Hodge/Ball/Judd draft of 2001 everyone will be a winner

we are all forgetting too that there was a HUGE go-home factor with niknat

Hypotheticals... Fun. As underwhelming as Watts can be, I am not that enamoured with Natinui. I am intrigued to see what Watts could be, and I know that as we get better he will get exponentially more useful. He will be a valuable player in an era that I see skills playing a huge role in.

Even that guy was crucified less than Watts...

This is why nobody is taking you seriously in this thread. There's a very plausible reason why he's slow this year and wasn't in his first two years - injury - and you reject it without offering up your basis for doing so or any sensible alternative. Then you're all bemused because nobody can see where you're coming from?

Rangey, with regards to Trengove, on 25 July in the Josh Caddy thread you wrote, "I'm putting his 2012 down to learning how to play a defensive style of game that will make him a more multi-dimensional player moving forward." What's happened in the last 4 weeks ? For what it's worth I tended to agree with you. Firstly, he hasn't played mid all year as has been asserted, he's also played as a defensive half forward. He is clearly minding a man at the stoppages as the coaches work on his defensive game. I suspect they'll free him up next year and this has been part of his learning curve. At state screening in 2009 Trengove ran a sub 3 second 20 metre sprint, which means that fully fit he's certainly not slow. There's no doubt that he's lost some zip, so I'm confident it won't be a major issue going forward. But in the main I trust my eyes. In his first two years I saw him play sone terrific footy in patches and I don't suddenly forget what I saw. Also, with regards to the Caddy thread that I just referenced, you were the author. If you don't mind I'll quote you once more, "I'm a big fan. A hard, tough, skillful mid who can kick goals. Has an apprenticeship working with Bluey McKenna and Gary Jnr under his belt and should be primed as he enters his third season of footy. I reckon we should go hard at him and trump whatever the Bomber and other clubs can offer the Suns (bar our picks 3 and 4 of course). 3,4, Caddy, Viney ... Now THAT would be a game-changing draft result for the MFC." I'd like to point out to you that in a bad year Trengove is averaging more disposals, more marks and more tackles. Trengove's first two years absolutely cream Caddy's 2012. I have no doubt that Trengove will become a gun mid. As others have mentioned, it's easy to forget how long it took most of the gun mids of today to play consistently at a high level. I've also read on this thread that Trengove is 21. He turns 21 next week and played the entire year as a 20 year old.

Yeah, and the other thing is that we need to draft kids who are physically able to compete at senior level in season 1. Too many players we've used early picks on were simply not physically ready for AFL football. Morton, Bennell, Watts, Blease, Cook and Gysberts, etc. Some still aren't ready years on.. Neeld made the comment that it's getting more and more difficult for young players coming through to adapt to the physical requirements of AFL football. I suspect we're not going to see too many skinny kids drafted under Neeld's watch..

In the state draft testing Trengove recorded a 20m sprint time of 2.97 seconds. Whilst it's not a top 10 score, it's certainly at the pointy end. Here's some of the other 20m sprint results as a reference. 20-metre sprint (seconds) 1. Ayden Kennedy 2.88 2. Dustin Martin 2.89 3. Andrew Hooper 2.90 4. Sam Reid 2.92 =5. Sam Shaw 2.93 =5. Kane Lucas =5. Gary Rohan =8. Lewis Jetta 2.95 =8. Dylan Grimes =10. Robbie Hicks 2.96 =10. Jack Fitzpatrick =10. Bradley Sheppard =10. Travis Colyer The bottom line is he's lost speed, that can only mean he's injured or his body isn't coping with the additional training load this year.

What 'good for you'?? You pious and sanctimonious keyboard champs who berate ppl for not going to the game clearly don't understand that some have busy fulfilled lives.. Great you could go. And I'm sure you missed your mothers funeral to attend a high quality important game on a Sunday arvo. Well done champ;

Lets ignore the fact that he has obviously carried most of the year and is third for disposals and as far as I understand leads our defensive acts but clearly one of our worst this season.

Sylvia was exceptional today. He tweeted that he wanted to stand up for Brad's last game and he did. I am a strong Sylvia supporter and have shown it on this thread, but today is what I want to expect weekly. He is a class player but he needs to understand not to kick up the feet now, have a few beers and pats on the back but to get to recovery tomorrow morning and do exactly the same next week.

That's a shame - just when the club needs more support than ever.

I don't know why some flogs get concerned by where 'some' recruiters rate a player. Fyfe was pick 20, but where would you have him now ? Beams was pick 29, but where would you have him now ? Hannebery was in the 30's, but where would you have him now ? Redden was in the 30's, but where would you have him now ? Shuey was 19, but where would you have him now ? Yet dickwads argue over whether Viney is 6-10, or 5-15; and if he falls outside our range whether we'll say bye ? You're delusional. Viney will be at Melbourne next year no matter what pick we have to take him. And he's worth it. The guy is a leader, he's as manic as Joel Selwood, he hits targets, and despite the views of some fools he's quick. We're lucky he's ours - even if you don't recognise it. Our first decent F/S since Barassi and supporters are happy to let him go. FM.

Jeremy, in a season where my 3 kids and I have been to 10 games, watched 2 wins and suffered through many many defeats, often downcast by 1/2 time, YOUR marking has been a highlight. But not only the many speccies, but the around the ground, your strong marking shows your ability. You can be a star and with a big 2013 pre season, you are a key to our MFC success. With more goalkicking efficiency, a 50 goal year is not beyond you. Thank you.

Stop feeding him the broken hearts of Melbourne supporters.

I read your whole post but felt it necessary to only quote this. Dean Bailey epitomised unaccountable football. Daniher had his favourites but he still held even his mates accountable for not performing. Bailey essentially let players get away with murder because they were young and inexperience. 2012 was indicative of a group with no real direction. When you come in and tell a puppy how to act like a dog, you're never going to get a mature hound right from the get-go. That's the reality. This year was awful. It was essentially our insight into just how bad this group was managed and trained: once someone came in from a working system, the players lost the plot and suddenly didn't have the capacity -- physically and mentally -- to play top-level AFL footy. If ever we needed an insight as to how far away this club was, it was to see it get plummeted by a top-4 side, two weeks out of finals.

Take a look at his second half of the year and he has actually been pretty consistent. Neeld highlighted as much in a recent press conference and like it or not, he spent the first half of the year regaining fitness after suffering broken vertebrae. He is one who does appear to have taken Neeld's message of hard work. Trade talk is ridiculous. How shite for how long do you want us to be? Trade away one of our very few with any real talent. Please. A full pre-season with no injuries and under Neeld i believe Col will flourish.

No excuse for the result, but can someone point me to where the rules of the game are written down. I need to go and re-learn them because I didn't understand half the decisions today.

Okay he was great today, however the rest of the season he has been okay but mostly uninspiring. I'm sure a lot of people will claim injuries or what not but after seven years of the same sort of stuff (uninspiring with the odd blinder of a game) it has to stop. If Colin can put his hand up and say "from now on, I am prepared to take a leaf out of my mate Jonesy's book and give 100 percent every damn week", I would say absolutely hold on to him. But the fact is if he is around next year (even next week) he will return to his usual self, uninspiring and lazy with the odd flashy touch here and there. I would probably have to agree that he is almost the most talented on our list but all talent and little drive leads to not much on the field. What it seems like is that he loves the idea of being a footballer. I think Col would benefit us the most by being traded out of the club. For one, he would have value I think and could develop into an important part of a strong team, with strong leaders and individuals to influence him, which he doesn't have here and I think has been a big influence on his attitude over the years. Moreover his attitude here is probably not beneficial to the younger guys coming through on the list. So basically I think it is time Col and the club parted ways. It is amazing how some people are defending him after one quality game. Being the best on the list as some people are saying, you'd think one 34 disposal game isn't enough to justify that tag.

Reckon you might regret that comment one day...

I agree. No-one here would have a problem with Tom taking the coin either. But, he lied to a dying Stynes and I think it goes down as the lowest thing a player has done in a few decades, if not ever.