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He has the ability to win possessions & consistently rack them up wherever he has played which is not a bad place to start when becoming a good footballer. It's more about attitude, application & leadership with Grimes. Brett Kirk didn't have any elite traits either, look at the footballer he became.

He is going a lot better than given credit for, but he was down on Sunday. Averages second most uncontested possessions to Jones at nearly 14 a game, so that tells me he is working hard to spread and get the footy. He makes mistakes but he is a neat player who has a great attack on the ball, and has a high footy IQ.

Hardly "End Of." This could work really well. Fitzy and Spencer are developing but may not make it, and I love Gawn, but after two knee recos he's a bit of a gamble. I love the idea of Jamar in the ruck, Clark at FF, and West alternating between forward and back up ruck, it would leave Clark as a full time forward which would be invaluable to our setup. Surely the one thing we learned from the weekend was we need more depth players and less development players?

Those capable of being developed into a premiership player, or are core: Clark, Jones, Trengove, Howe, Watts, Frawley, Rivers, Grimes, Jamar, Garland, Jurrah, Tom McDonald, *Sylvia, *Moloney Players with question marks, are depth, or have skill issues: Bartram, McKenzie, Bail, Nicholson, Martin, Jetta, Joel Mac, Magner Too early to call: Tapscott, Blease, Gysberts, Strauss Sorry, but I just don't see it: Dunn, Bate, Bennell, Morton, Spencer Time has passed them by: Green, Davey Others such as Taggert, Tynan, Cook, Davis, Gawn, etc. are development players and I'll leave the Rookies. * some will have these two in the ? category and I have no problem with that. I have 7 players in the "time has passed by", or "sorry" categories, but those in the "?/depth" category wouldn't feel safe - depending on contract status. Also, I don't believe Davey will be going anywhere, even though I've placed him where I have. I think he'll get his final year in 2013. And Magner will obviously also get another year. If every player was out of contract I reckon there'd only be a about a dozen players confident of their short-term future. I have to say that I'm disappointed to list Morton where I have, as I still see talent and upside. But I too have given up hope. He just doesn't have the capacity to win the type of contested footy that players are exposed to in finals. Every player on the list should be measured by their potential to influence finals. If you can't perform in finals you're about as useful as a cold pie. By my assessment we don't have one A grade player. Clark was having an A grade year, but I don't give an A grade rating on one year, let alone half a season. We have potential A graders - Clark, Trengove, Watts, Frawley, Howe and we need to really get some wins in the draft/trade table at year's end. Essendon have shown that things can change quite quickly and I'm relatively bullish about our future. But I always am.

I have this aversion to spending #4 on a ruckman when we are crying out for midfield strength and speed.

Hahaah this is hilarious. Talk over the last month about how much weve improved, how things are finally moving in the right direction, and then a loss interstate without Jones Clark Jamar and Tmac and all of a sudden its going backward and time to sack Neeld. Talk about knee jerk

I didn't think we were that bad today. I thought we had a crack for most of the game and didn't give up. Did anyone expect us to win with the players we had out? Throw Clark and Jurrah into that forward line, Jamar and Jones into the middle and I reckon that's already a 6 goal difference. We were even in the clearances, won the contested footy and even won the inside 50s (an area we were extremely poor at in the first 7 or 8 games). The difference today was the Lions ability to move the ball really quickly and accurately from half back to the forward line (our defensive pressure was not good enough in this respect) and the flip side being our slow ball movement out of our backline. This meant that Brisbane were able to get it in quick to an open forward line whereas our entries were slow and laborious allowing the Lions time to get players back to crowd our forward line. To me all this highlighted is what we already know - we lack crumbing forwards who can apply defensive pressure to opposition defenders and we lack class and pace in the midfield which greatly affects our ability to move the ball forward with pace and precision. Midfield class and pace is what we've talked about all year so it's no surprise. We obviously need to address this through the draft. But I was happy that we matched them inside the contests and got the ball forward enough times to kick a winning score. I'm not at all worried about that result as we were well below full strength and it will be a different team when we play them next time.

I think he's lauded for his courage, honesty and toughness. The younger brigade of players really respect him and I reckon he's a hard nut. We need him in our team.

I'd delist you on that effort. Delist McKenzie LOL When he's been passed by better players I might open my mind to the possibility of delisting him, and when that happens I'm sure he'll have a disappointed smile on his face, nod his head and take it on the chin. Until then, he stays. He's harder at it than any other player on our list bar none.

No. Cam was a bit hasty because he saw what he believed was the writing on the wall and left of his volition when he could have remained a one club player. Now he's a three club player - Melbourne, Hawthorn and Box Hill. He's past it now - we could do with one or two experienced players but they need to have some life in the AFL left.

I'm not a doctor Jaded but I've heard that it's not as bad as first thought. A week or two perhaps. In the meantime, Troy Davis was on the verge of selection a couple of weeks ago and, though his form has lapsed a bit at Casey, I think it's time for him to get a run.

What this discussions suggests to me is that there are some who get what Neeld is trying to do and what he's dealing with, and there are some who don't. Neeld was very honest with the MFC board during the recruitment process for the senior coaching position when he said this year would be painful. He said it would be as painful as it was for Al Clarkson when he took over at Hawthorn in 2005-ish and for Damien Hardwick when he started with Richmond in 2009. He's been spot on with that assessment. Those expecting an easy progression into the finals this year were kidding themselves. Neeld knows the list isn't as fit and strong as the benchmark teams in the comp yet, and that it will be 2014 before they reach the benchmark. They need several preseasons to make it happen and Dave Misson has a big job to do. I reckon this at least partly explains why MFC players can't spread from the contest as quickly and as frequently as other teams and they repeatedly get beaten down the field, week after week. It might be that their training loads are still very high in order to fast-track the fitness development, which takes away from their abilities on game day. That's just speculation on my part, I wouldn't know for sure. Neeld is also using every game to check out what his players can do. With half of the list out of contract at the end of the year, he's got a great opportunity to do a thorough cleanout if he wants to. He and his crew must be looking at who is worth keeping and who is not, so why not thrown them around in different positions? Why not play Spencer, Bate, Dunn and other players on the fringe to see if they can do something? Also, the MFC list is still one of the youngest in the comp and a lot of the younger brigade have been hampered in their development by injuries and an absence of 200+ game players to set the standards for them. Neeld and co are still trying to get them all to TRAIN at AFL standard, let alone PLAY at AFL standard. Don't underestimate how important that is. Neeld is in standard-setting mode for an inexperienced group, not trying to put the finishing touches on a finals contender. Neeld knows the team was playing a style of game under Bailey that was fundamentally unsuited to modern footy, which emphasises contested ball, pressure across the ground and proficient midfield clearance play. The Bailey style was good enough to beat bad sides but it was routinely torn apart by good sides that were physical, applied solid pressure and ran hard both ways. There are many players on the list who know only the Bailey way, so Neeld and his coaching panel have a massive task in reprogramming them to play a contemporary brand of footy. I suspect he is introducing elements of the game plan bit by bit so that the players digest it. It takes time to make it all stick, it might take until the final year of Neeld's contract until we see the fruits of this labour. Tossing out Neeld now and replacing him with Roos or Malthouse as some have suggested in this discussion would be a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Those tried and trusted coaches would be implementing the same basic things regarding training standards, contested footy and around-the-ground pressure that Neeld is attempting to implement, so why get rid of Neeld? It would set the club back even further. I believe he is doing what is necessary over the next few years to put the club on the path towards playing consistent finals footy, which is what we expect of him. Mark Neeld and his regime therefore should be judged halfway through 2014, not now.

Your only joking right? Kosi is the biggest spud this side of Bate.

It's ridiculously early for this kind of stuff but here we go anyway . . . I'd be keen for a scenario like the following to unfold: Toumous (pick 3) Boak (trade pick 4) Prestia (trade pick 13) Viney (second round F/S) I'm very confident that the MFC mind games will work. Gold Coast and GWS won't nominate Jack in the first round and we'll grab him in the second round. Toumpas fits the bill. He's fast, dynamic and finds the footy. He's got a good motor and uses it pretty well. I think Boak is worth pick 4 and I think we'll need to use it to trump other teams. Gaff, Morabito, Hartlett, Morton and Leuenberger are the last four pick 4's (outside of Hoskin-Elliott last year who has only played 3 games). Boak was taken the pick after Leuenberger in 2006. He gives us instant experience, leadership and hard running. Prestia seems to be the forgotten man. He's been averaging about 20 touches until he nipped his hamstring this year. He's small but uses it well and is a committed tackler. He'd be entering his third year of footy. I love the look of Viney. I'm a little concerned by his size but the one attribute that most overlook on here is how well he reads the ball around the stoppages and once he gets it he rarely fumbles. The kid is a competitive beast. Pick 30 will be a steal. 2013 midfield would include Boak, Jones, Gysberts, Grimes, Howe, Trengove, Viney, McKenzie, Prestia, Toumpas, Blease, Sylvia, Taggert. That's starting to look like a midfield with a bit of depth and potential. Add Strauss, Tapscott and Tynan and Morton (I haven't given up) giving us further run and we might just be able to turn this around more quickly than many here expect.

my last say on the matter. we want to make sure people feel welcome to post on this site without fear of retribution. there is a manner in which people can respond to opinions they dont agree with and i think at time people step over the line. respect everyones right to have their opinions and respond with the same respect.

We lose pick 12 and a player ? For West ? Hooley Dooley..... Is it a full moon ?

well i don't give a flying f*** what other clubs do. I just want to see my mfc always in the red and blue (no white) If it was just a question of common sense then i wouldn't be supporting the demons you have no idea of emotion tradition passion and loyalty....it's not something you can bottle hose end rant

I really would hate it if we have to use pick 3 on Viney and use pick 4 on Boak. To not get any of Stringer, Toumpas, Wines would be painful to watch.

Mods - can we PLEASE get a thread pinned outling the rules of the F/S process?

Some well balanced and thought out posts on this thread. Refreshing reading after I was pretty p*ssed yesterday. One thing that does do my head in is that we never seem to kick to a forward on a lead, it’s always long and high to a contest. Mitch was able to deal with this okay, but 9 times out of 10 this is a defenders dream and the ball is smashed to the boundary. Whatever happened to leading hard and putting the ball into space to run into? Essendon are doing it beautifully at the moment and Hurley is reaping the rewards.

What I find curious is that: Bailey plays defenders in the forward line (i.e. warnock vs Tigers 2009) = tanking Neeld play multiple defenders in the forward line = building versatility

We will play finals in 2013, Neeld and Co are just working players out, throwing different challenges at them to see how they respond. It would have been easy for Neeld to switch Dunn and Watts back to the forward line but he didn't their education on certain aspects are more important, same with Howe we could of left him deep forward but his education as a midfielder is a priority. Look at our best 18 posts from the start of the year I had our forward line as Green Clark Martin Howe Watts Jurrah, Only Howe and Martin spent limited time up forward.

A love a littel humour on monday morning. Magner is a first year player. He , unlike others has managed to keep his job. Hes been asked to not only play a hard game ( but he likes it that way it seems anyway ) he has taken it upon himslef it seems to attempt tostep upa littel even before hes had a chance to consolidate his abilities at this level. He earns his possessions, he doesnt shirk contests. Hes far from slow, open your eyes ; hes taken down a few unsuspecting opposition during the year. What he is...is all but alone out there at times and doesnt have a lot of his compatriots presenting in positions that make the meerist of sense. This guy is a genuine uncut gem. Another preseason and more games under his belt and he will be amongst the first picked week in week out. This guy actually WANTS to play.

Sheedy is trying to avert the disaster that's befallen the GC Suns in their second season. It's a good move because they can't rely on their veterans such a Cornes, Brogan, Power and Junior to give them the sort of back up support supplied this year. I suspect also that they can't go out and buy too many expensive players either as the day will come when they have to negotiate new contracts with some of their younger breed of promising young players who are doing well enough to start asking questions about their contract values compared to the millionaire on the list who isn't exactly performing all that well.

I don't see how this post is backing you up in any way. Yes, West Coast have better depth than we do. And? Petterd is out of form, Morton has consistently failed to deliver, Bennell hot and cold, Gys coming back from injury, Tynan a first year player. I'd say that Jones, Watts, Clark, Magner, McKenzie, McDonald and Grimes have all performed consistently and continued to develop since Neeld took over. Not dignifying this anymore. The fact is there is a general consensus that we're onto a good thing in terms of our head coach. If you think Neeld is an abject failure after half a season, go chat to David King about it.

This is an embarassing post. Fact of the matter is our team was gutted before the first bounce and at this stage we simply don't have the personnel to cover such crucial losses. The team was making notable progress up until this week and I think most supporters acknowledge that as well as the size of the task Neeld has ahead of him. I'll be watching the rest of this season with one eye open as I'm expecting a few more days like today. A clean out will be occurring at year's end and it is then we will begin to see Neeld's rebuild start in earnest.

Dumping our captains after one season sends a great message to the playing group... not!! Particularly so close on the heels of the dumping of J McD and Brad Green. In my opinion, and speaking as a Nathan Jones fan, I think that regardless of his qualifications, replacing the current captains would be entirely counter productive and what little morale there is in the playing group would be lost.

Picket is a 'Ology refugee and a senile 'juice' fool who is somehow related to MN. Ignore anything he says on the subject

I still reckon kicjing to posession far outweighs high balls knocked over the boundary. In one instance you HAVE the ball and options ahead. In the other your HAVE stopped play, killed momentum and given them time to man up and structure before a throw in which is 50-50. Seems dumb at best and defeatist at worst.

What is he supposed to show? Or are we about to get the Niknat again, who is a one off freak....suggest as somebody else has said, go to youtube look up Cox and Sandilands and have a look at their early games.....Cox nearly killed a spectator at training one day who was standing about 30 metres to the left and behind of the goal when Cox took a shot and nearly took his head off. I also quote Ben McEvoy and Sam Jacobs, a year or so ago they were exactly like Spencer.....time time time...Jake has had a year out of the game

Number one - I don't see how this is a clash strip. It is still a red sash with a dark alternate colour. Number two - I think this will clash with the Saints jumper even more so than their usual jumper (given that it keeps the red and then blends the two other St Kilda colours together).

I think as the game plan comes together and players gain experience it will certainly improve - I suppose you'd have to say it's an issue for the coaches as I'd assume they're the ones who map out the program. As far as I understand the sports science side, I don't think it's a matter of just doing more sessions. Improving kicking and hand balling requires, IMO, conditions that mirror match-situations. Going forward it will be Neeld et. al.'s responsibility and players who don't improve won't have responsibility to improve, it'll be a requirement that if they don't achieve they'll be cut.

Does a lack of personnel affect the selection and match-ups in a game? We won the contested possession, clearances, Inside 50s, and had as many tackles as them. We didn't spread, and we didn't kick into the forward line well (or have a functioning forward line). We didn't play poorly, but had a poor result. I don't know why the 17 year old draft is relevant here? I just want the best list management outcome from wherever we finish the season - that might involved the 17 year old draft. Or should we just leave that business to other clubs? Whatever It Takes...

B59, I'm all about the longer term view, and can only put my faith (hopefully it's not blind faith) in to Neeld and co. But, at the risk of speaking on behalf of some supporters, all we want at the moment are competitive efforts. I'm sick of hearing press conferernces from players after a loss saying "we didn't spread". This has been obvious all year, and while the players are totally aware that this is a problem, why the hell aren't they doing something about it? I strongly believe that Neeld made some poor decisions yesterday, with the first being obvious at the opening bounce. Why was Martin first ruck and Spencer in the forward line? Spencer is a ruckman (apparently), it was his first game in a long time, why start him forward? Moving Watts to Brown was obviously for Watts' development, but why? Brown's that "gorilla forward" that some teams have, Watts won't be one of those, and will not be a "gorilla tamer" if he has a career as a defender. Playing Garland and Rivers forward has been somewhat of a success story in previous weeks, and is giving both players the opportunity to learn to play a role that in future, we may need them to pinch hit. From a development point of view, I don't know if there is a strong need to play them there for the rest of the year, and as soon as we saw McDonald go down yesterday, I think that it would've been better from a structure point of view to move at least one of JR or CG back. To Neeld's credit(?), he wasn't reactive in his moves, but I'm just not sure if that was the right decision. Stupid turnovers has nothing to do with players developing in their roles. When I saw Grimes kick it on the full because he elected to kick with his non-preferred when he had ample opportunity to kick it with his preferred, that sort of stuff just kicks me in the guts. This has happened umpteen times this season from a variety of players, and I'm continually amazed that these errors are being made without consequence. The thing that concerns me the most about this season is the fact that, taking away the 2 franchise clubs, we are on the bottom. No one expected GC or GWS to be in a position other than where they are, so basucally, we're the "unofficial" wooden spoon-ists. Neeld has openly commented that he has told players that when we've played well in the past, we've looked amazing, but we're putting that style of play on hold to work on some of the basics. This is a very dangerous path to take, but again, I'm putting my faith in his decisions. At the instruction of the coach, we've shelved that run through the corridor, we've shelved that creativity and dare to take the game on, I just hope that when the players are asked to take it off the shelf that they remember how to do it. I'm amazed that we lost by 10 goals - it should've been more, and I'm more amazed that people on here are happy to accept it and write it off as development. Like Big Jim (I think) said in another post, I'm sick of draft picks. I'd rather be wondering who is left toward the end of the first round rather than wonder who we are going to take with pick 3 - at least that would mean we're finishing higher up the ladder. Then some more educated posters on here are hoping we get involved in the mini draft this year, which will mean we're picking up a 17 year old who won't be able to play until 2014 at the earliest. End rant.

I heard a rumour from a VIC native re: Sanderson received an offer from Adelaide, but wanted to coach Melbourne because he thought highly of its list. Schwab suggested he take the offer. Or did I dream it up, my memory is hazy, but it was a VIC native....

If it wasn't for a 1st and 2nd year team in the league we would be stone cold last, without a win and absolutely no prospect of winning for the remaining of the year. I'm not sure how it can get worse than that??? I am convinced Melbourne supporters have accepted mediocraty

Reading this thread just blows my mind. You blokes are unbelievable. You are all just a bunch of Dorothys - just click your heels three times and a decent team will pop up from nowhere. If we delist all the players mentioned in this thread we will stay down the bottom for another ten years - you can't just draft a new team from nowhere - it evolves over time. With a new coach we need time to let the team develop. With this in mind Bate, Morton, Pettard, Moloney and Bartram at the very least must stay - all mature bodies, all played 50 - 150 games. I would argue that Green and Davey should too - I think we all agree that we moved Juinior on to soon and these blokes are in the same catergory. Patience Grasshopper Patience

Watching the game today I had a revelation that a large proportion or majority of our list are not good enough to be consistent top 4. I'm not talking about needing another draft of kids to come through and getting games into our kids. At the moment it is more a question of who stays rather than who goes. Some guys like Trengove, Watts, Tapscott and Howe have time on their side but havent as yet shown they can be top shelf players. Others like Spencer, Bate, Dunn, Moloney, Bennell, Sellar, Jetta, Martin, MacDonald etc are complete spuds who will be lucky to be on an AFL list next year although Sellar perhaps "could" be a role player. I'm not a fan of Jamar and the fact Jones is our best midfielder says a hell of a lot. We have kids like Gysberts, Strauss, Tynan, Taggert, Cook who still haven't fired a shot but who knows if they will come on or have what it takes. Then the older guys like Green, Davey, Rivers are either past it or will be by the time we finally get a team together who can play fInals let alone finish top 4. Who knows if Gawn will be able to make a career for himself, Fitzpatrick has looked way out of his depth in the two games he's had and who knows what the hell has happened to Petterd this year. All in all we need a complete overhaul of our list - there are roles for guys like Bartram & McKenzie but you can't have them in the same team as Magner, Nicholson, Bail etc. Pen in guys like Clark, Frawley, Jones and the kids like Trengove, Tapscott, Watts etc and try to build a team around that. Most of the rest of the list all need to be chopped - the fact that most of them would struggle to get a game at GWS or GC should tell us something.

When we play Bate, Dunn, Spencer, McDonald all in the one side, we will never really have to tank. Apologies to any other spuds I missed.

Wacko it's quite simple mate, we are just a very average football team. Look at the success 4 yrs of tanking has brought us! No need to go down that path again. We will finish bottom 3 even if we play at our very best for the rest of the year!

Yet another apologist post rpfc - your so-called detente included a bye and a win over a group of inexperienced kids - I am absolutely confident MFC supporters want real success and not the rubbish in your last para - wake up! Given the reasonable talent/quality of the MFC list (albeit inexperienced in some cases), this probably is the worst year for some 40+ years. Of course overnight success was never expected, but just a small amount of improvement might be a reasonable expectation! Just who is suffering delusion?

We could delist about 12 players easy from this MFC team. You just cant carry this many spuds at this level. We are in some real trouble if we dont make finals next year IMO 6 years with no finals is just shocking after the picks we have had. This draft is going to give this club one last chance with this list. Mark neeld has a big job coming up and i am sure he will show no mercey as this is his once in a life time shot as coach. I think there will be one or two big name moved on at years end. I have a bad feeling that blease will not be with the dees in 2013. Im sick of looking forward to draft picks. Cant wait for the day i just go to the footy and know my team has a chance to win every week again. Its been a long hard 6 years for every demon fan.Its time for the MFC to do something for its loyal fans. just bloody start winning Melbourne

Another emotional, ludicrous thread after a heavy loss.

It really really upsets me that of all the experienced, highly paid players at our club, who have all had absolutely woeful games/seasons/careers, supporters choose to single out and humiliate Spencer. He is a child, he hasn't play in 2 years, and he is coming back from a knee reconstruction. Newsflash: he isn't our problem.

Mckenzie - learn to kick.

Worst. Thread. Ever. And I've seen a few.

Amen! Clark would have made a huge difference today. Of the options available; a million times Jones. No contest for mine. Would've loved to see TMac continue on Brown too though. He probably would've been smashed, but the experience would be valuable.

Big bloke coming back from a knee reco. He did some reasonable tap work. Give him a go.

I have had a total gutful of Madman McGuire. His egotism, bullying, ranting and red-faced narcissistic psychosis is an embrrassment to anyone who likes to talk, comment and interact with footy. As Gina Reinhart is to publishing Eddie is to footy - a total [censored] and the industry is embarrassed by him. He spoils my enjoyment of reading articles, listening to SEN and all the other footy stuff I enjoy. Eddie - no one gives a rats tossbag about your war-chest, your "big club here at Collingwood", your attack on Fremantle, or any other load of loud mouth carp you wish to vent. Just go away and leave us all alone, we are sick to death of you.