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Hey Jack. The centre of Australia is a troubled space, now more so than ever in my time here. I dont want the broader issues and incidents I discuss in the following post to reflect on Liam and the incident that he has alleged to have been a part of. Nor do I wish to suppose to have any specific knowledge on the Yuendumu situation. But perhaps some of the following can provide some context for understanding the reported events on Wednesday night and the commentary that has flowed since. The incident earlier this week, allegedly involving possibly this countrys most famous indigenous person, seems to have (momentarily) thrust some attention upon the difficult lives of Aboriginal people in Central Australia. The popular media has suggested that this incident was cultural. It also seems to have been suggested that our inability to properly comprehend this incident stems from our disinterest and our collective failure to understand Aboriginal people and their culture. A part of this I agree with, I see something a little different however in how the incident itself has been reported and interpreted. This incident, as we know, was part of an ongoing feud. It has been suggested that those involved were part of a legitimate attempt at ritual retribution. I think it is important when interpreting the events of the week to have some historical understanding of payback and how it has evolved into what it is today. Historically payback in the Western Desert occasionally involved groups of males (ritual avengers) who sought out specific individuals deemed to have caused wrong to a family member of theirs. They were not random acts of violence. When the guilty party was located a confrontation, either by ambush or in special circumstances, a mutually organised event took place. In some instances during post-contact times payback evolved into a highly organised, strictly governed sequence of events (more like a performance or ceremony) that was minutely controlled by a group of senior men. The physical act, of the spearing in most instances, was always performed by the appropriate avenging family member who was either experienced in such acts or was closely instructed by the afore mentioned senior men. This was often to ensure the wound was not fatal and to satisfy those seeking retribution by way of the temporary affliction of pain and crippling upon the wrong-doer. I have witnessed a recent (8 years ago) version of such events. It was attended by the entire community, it occurred in the middle of the day and in a neutral part of the community. It all transpired under the close surveillance of an experienced team of members from the Northern Territory Police force. Medical staff from the local clinic were also on hand to tend to the resultant wounds after the procedure was complete. At no stage did this event stray from its intent. It saw a partial end to the ill feeling between the two families involved and the same process settled a number of other ongoing disputes. This is not to say however that the original act of violence or sorcery was forgotten or forgiven. Often the ramifications of such incidents last and manifest themselves in other ways. Such carefully organised events are unfortunately rare. Current acts of payback in the town camps of Alice Springs happens on an almost weekly basis. The disturbing, almost guaranteed ingredient these days however is of course alcohol. There has been a strong tendency, over a number of decades, to attempt to excuse pure drunken violence as cultural payback. It is problematic then when Wednesday nights incident, which it must be said, was typical of the norm in Central Australia, is reported, interpreted and then understood as some sort of traditional or culturally sanctioned right of passage. There is a vast irreconcilable difference between the strictly governed form of retribution described previously and the alcohol fueled free-for-all that is currently commonplace. Whilst I believe there needs to be an acknowledgement of Aboriginal law within Whitefella law, which I extend to include controlled retribution, I do not accept the oft presented and disturbingly popular consideration that the violence as it occurs almost nightly in Alice Springs is cultural. There must come a time when racial politics must step aside and yield to reason. Make no mistake, I believe Liam was/is highly obliged to play his role as a well regarded member of a family involved in a complex dispute. The words in the previous sentence may sound pithy, but the heavy expectation upon family in Central Australian indigenous culture is impossible to fathom from the outside, where I consider myself to sit. Liam is expected and obliged to express his feelings about the death of his kin. Violence, it is said, is an expression of feeling (this comes from an excellent book on a neighboring cultural group the Pintupi). Liam is obviously attempting not to shirk his responsibilities in two worlds with two differing peer groups. Because when its all over and he returns to the Western Desert with a premiership medallion around his neck, he must face his family and stand as the true Warlpiri man I expect he is. I try to remind myself that every football career is a relatively short one and that football is just a part of his life. This is a bitter pill to swallow if you are footy mad and not understanding of Liams extreme circumstance. None of this explains why he was at Little Sisters and he put himself in the circumstance he did. None of this excuses his actions. It is devastating and together we feel it. The one thing I take solace in though is Liam himself. Some thought Rudeboys fantastic biography on Liam was premature and a few never bought into Brett Badgers assertion that for Liam the journey to game number 1 was greater than the journey to game 200. Ive met Liam a few times, but dont know him from a bar of soap. What I do know though is where he has come from, my wife grew up on a neighboring community Even if you saw it with you own eyes, you like me, would still fail to fathom it. The Liam Jurrah effect in Central Australia is palpable. Kids want to be him and wear our colours because he does. These kids have had a magnificent role model, which for me is what makes this week so difficult to swallow. Cars parade around the desert emblazoned in windscreen-wide Demons stickers. A relative of his I know well, whose name is spelt slightly differently due to a bureaucratic misspelling, desperately wants to change his name by deedpoll, so proud he is of his nephew Liam and his relationship to him. I suppose my motivation for writing this post is multi-pronged. I hope the complexity of Liams situation is a little more exposed and that understanding may come from it. I also want to respond to the concern some posters share about the circumstance of people in Central Australia. Because this is the guts of the pain and confusion we have felt this week. Liam has made a series of bad decisions to be in the position he is. But I encourage you all to stand by him and our proud club on our collective learning curve. When he returns to play the game he loves consider for a moment not just the journey Liam continues to travel upon, but the journey we, as his supporters, do as well. ---- Indigenous disadvantage in this country is a real thing. I cannot begin to discuss this issue here as it just doesnt feel right. But remember this; Liam comes from a chronically underfunded community where there is almost zero opportunities for long-term meaningful employment. His family have probably never had the opportunity to own their own home. The Fedral Governments Intervention saw all Aboriginal men throughout the Territory cast with the suspicion of being drunken pornographic obsessed pedophiles. Just look at the big signs as you enter any and ever Aboriginal community here. His families income is managed by the government who tell them where they can and cannot spend their money. Some non-indigenous people who live on Aboriginal communities and receive government assistance are exempt. Why? Because their not indigenous. How? The Howard government suspended the Racial Discrimination Act in this country. Rudd and Gillard have upheld this since. Imagine how you would feel. -------- Earlier this year a 9 year old girl hanged herself in her home community on the Anangu Pitjantjatjara Yankunytjatjara Lands in South Australia. 9 years old. Also in Central Australia, a coroner earlier this week described the body of a domestic violence victim as having injuries consistent with what one would expect if the body had fallen from an aircraft in flight. On Tuesday in Alice Springs a woman from a community 380kms west of Alice Springs had her throat slit. Her husband is being sought for questioning as the prime suspect in the case. But perhaps what has motivated me to share my thoughts with you today is what I woke to this morning. Just last night a dear old friend of mine was violently stabbed to death in a camp not far from Little Sisters. He too was from a remote community and was the victim of a family dispute fueled by drugs and alcohol. His own brother is wanted for questioning. His mother inconsolable, a family devastated. My concern, which I cannot answer, is why is this happening and why dont you as Australians know and hear about it like I do? --- For me Jack, Demonland (& Demonologys) proudest moment was when we bought his debut guernsey and gifted it to the community of Yuendumu. I am assured it does stand as the beacon we wanted it to be and always will. I know Liams Grandmothers acceptance of our gift was a proud moment for those present. It showed that people understood, even way back then, what a special person was in our midst. There have been questions asked during this last week of what one can do to understand, to help or assist. I might suggest some websites below of organisations that rely on the support of good people. Mt Theo http://www.mttheo.org/home/ Western Desert Nganampa Walytja Palyantjaku Tjutaku Aboriginal Corporation http://wdnwpt.org.au/ The Central Australian Aboriginal Alcohol Programs Unit http://www.caaapu.org.au/ The Ngaanyatjarra Pitjantjatjara Yankunytjatjara (NPY) Women's Council http://www.npywc.org.au/index.html Drug and Alcohol Services http://www.dasa.org.au/

Mark Neeld's game plan involves a strong defence, using the boundary, not over finessing, winning contested footy, going long to a contest in the forward-line when appropriate, a strong forward press making it difficult for the opposition to get out of our forward 50, but it also involves spotting up short targets with run and spread, which is what we failed to see the other night. Right now the players are still in the embryonic stages of learning their roles and fine tuning a new plan. They're also in the process of getting better as footballers. There's nothing wrong with the game-plan. And rather than a full press, or zone, we saw them go man-on-man in one of the quarters at Casey, which indicates they're learning multiple ways to play. We'll have some set backs this year, but we'll also see some really strong games of footy. I'm excited by the journey we're about to undertake and far from disillusioned by one game of footy, albeit a disappointing one. Alastair Clarkson won 5 games in his first year and finished 14 of 16. He only won 9 games in his second year. It took him 3 years to play finals. He's about to embark on his 8th year of coaching. There were calls for his head early in his career. How about we have a little patience while the players learn a way of playing footy that is going to stand them in good stead for a crack at the finals in the not too distant future.

I expect Malthouse and Neeld would talk a lot. And, not unsurprisingly, Malthouse's views on Watts seem to mirror Neeld's initial impressions of him. And before everyone puts the knife into Malthouse, I understand he was very supportive of Mark Neeld in his application for the MFC gig and that he thought the Dees would be a great place for Neeld to end up. Personally, I'm strongly of the view that Mark Neeld is the best thing that's happened to the Dees for many years. And, at least in part, that is due to Mick Malthouse. So, he can keep tearing strips off us - our performances in recent years don't deserve anything better than that IMO. If we're going to succeed as a club, it's by facing facts - not by burying our head in the sand. On field, we've been soft - and this needs to change. Success won't otherwise come to us, and Malthouse simply seems to be pointing this out. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Mick would love to see the Dees flourish this year under Mark Neeld. And that's not going to happen without players like Jack Watts developing a killer focus and ambition on wanting to succeed.

Thank you so much for that Fork, it is greatly appreciated. What a fantastic insight from someone who knows alot about the sort of issues people like Liam and his people have to deal with. And may I offer my deepest condolences on the loss of your friend. I hope that somehow some good can come of all this mess for all and everyone concerned, although to people like myself it is hard to see how. Such a complex issue, if only we could find the answers.

I do a little bit of coaching (school kids and senior women) and the one thing that I've discovered over the journey is how important 3 or 4 players can be. We can talk about structures and tactics and development and culture and go round and round and round. We can compare ourselves to other teams and compare our young players to others. Over the past three years (and arguably the last 40) it has been blatantly obvious that we've been 3 or 4 players short of a decent, competitive week in, week out team and these 3 or 4 have been experienced, hard-bodied leaders. Add Mitchell, Sewell, Hodge and Franklin to the Dees and our younger players would walk taller and play accordingly. Our midfield rotations would have genuine depth. Our lesser midfield lights would receive less tagging attention and our key forwards would get lesser defenders and our defenders would have more confidence to take the game on and support their team-mates. In short, pressure would be taken off the youngest third of our list to lead the rest. An example would be provided on and off the field to follow. We simply don't have that experienced core. The football department admitted as much when they appointed a 20 year old and a 22 year old as co-captains. The addition of Clark is bloody important. Couch and Magner will give us grunt and competition and depth but the reality is, we'll lack the midfield class until Gysberts, Strauss and Blease all mature (physically and mentally). For mine, Trengove must become elite and Grimes will need to stay relatively injury free. Add Viney and an experienced midfielder with our compo picks and the worm will start to turn quickly. If Jones continues to improve and Sylvia finally has the break out season we've all been waiting for then within 2 seasons we'll have the experienced, match-hardened engine room that we crave. A midfield group of Trengove, Gysberts, Jones, Grimes, Blease, Viney, Sylvia, McKenzie, Bail and let's say for the point of the exercise (Jack Redden/Patrick Dangerfield/Dion Prestia trade with compo picks). I'm not convinced that Moloney will be good enough in a couple of seasons and I'm also not giving up on Morton. If a Tynan or a Taggert or a 2012 draft pick can be added successfully to this group then we have the 12 that we'll need. We'll also have a good mix of experience. We know that our bookends are pretty good. It's all about the midfield. It looks like we've got the grunt - now we need to get the games into the above list and hope that the better kicks develop the engine and the attitude to compete consistently. We're 3 or 4 players away - the question is how many of them are already on our list?

Being overseas I only heard it on radio, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but they said we won just over 1/2 the contested possessions & it seemed the difference was that we then bombed it to another contested situation, whereas when they got possession they more often passed it to a favourable uncontested option thereby maintaining their possession. I've heard/read/seen nothing indicating that's not the plan under MN so far & I love his initial tough focus on winning contests, but really hope he introduces a phase 2 to his new style that involves all manner of passing to team mates, maintaining possession, providing & honouring leads etc.. ...better ball use once we win that contested situation. Cheers

I have brainwashed the hell out of them. Sometimes it did include fudging the scores a little bit when I would get home from the G. A 6 year old and a 2 year old don't really understand rebuilding phases and a developing list.

Can't say I disagree with anything that Malthouse has said in that brief analysis. In his first sentence he says there is not a lot wrong with Melbourne, encouraging in itself. Then he explains some reasons why we havent been performing & that he expects Neeld to get the best out of us. He then goes on to say what it will take for Jack to become the player we aimed him to be when he was drafted. If anything he has given accurate constructive criticism & analysis.

Sorry billy but I'm absolutely astounded that you've made a call (let alone start a whole new thread), about the performance of one of our Captains after one NAB game against arguably the best team in the league at the moment. And on top of that you've blamed Mark Neeld for poor decision making in giving him the nod. Good luck with this one mate.

It's important to note that the club captain was chosen through a rigorous process involving the coaching staff, key administrators and the entire playing list. Ipso facto, virtually anyone who knows anything within the club has glowingly endorsed Jack and Jack to be duel leaders. Whether we on the outside believe Trengove can't perform as a leader due to his inexperience, the coaches and players have stated in clear terms that "he will be the leader of our club." Who are we to know better?

Neeld will make plenty of mistakes What i dont understand is why is someone counting ?

one g healy's comment about all this is made on opening his"sports tonight show" that all the media hype on this STINKS of false accusations. without facts. seems to me something was NOT right in all the articles from the outset. as it is not in his nature ! & as such something did not sit right & a trial by media.. who want nothing more than a soap opera again the absurd bedside questioning of uncle and alike. jumping to conclusions & not listening to liam that he is innocent !! healy mentions that in his culture he is automatically responsible as an elder of his people but that he did NOT have any weapon in his hands nor was he drunk "AS HE DOES NOT DRINK". he actually pulled a 13 year old inside a house to be safe away from all the mess going on outside.. healy mentioned this as a probable fact ! so his take will almost assuredly be on the coach..

An enlightening post Fork. Thanks also for the links to organisations that address some of the key issues that you have outlined. Provides a constructive way to assist the people of communities like Yuendumu. WJ could Fork's post be turned into an article or highlighted in some other manner. Too important to be buried in a Demonland thread.

Was the first banned ?

Are we all? It is only the 5th day and I am starting to tire of it. like TS last year it will be a big distraction for at min. of the next 4 months. Our season will be sealed by then. It could again drain the club as in 2011. During that period He will probably not play through injury. So we have no input from him on the field and all the distraction of the off field stuff. Is the value there. Having said that we bought him to the outside world and we should support him. But there is going to be a high cost to that i fear.

The thing that has struck me in all of our NAB Cup games is the preoccupation with defending space is making our players much more conscious of the opposition and less inclined to create our own play. In the games that we looked good in the last two years (albeit usually against inferior sides), we had a free-flowing, creative, attacking style, where we used the corridor. Neeld observed that we were a good attacking side but crap when the opposition had the ball. We all saw players like Sylvia, Davey etc. fail to apply defensive pressure and bemoaned our lack of mental toughness. Hopefully they will begin to blend the two together. Solid, tough, relentless defence, and free flowing attack when the opportunity presents itself. You can see that players are not playing on instinct and have not internalised the new program yet. I certainly hope that there is more to the Neeld game plan than "boundary hugging". It's very predictable and almost as horrible to watch as the Ross Lyon style. Already the good teams like Hawthorn have added new dimensions. Of course they have brilliant kicking skills that we don't. It does highlight the need to get Blease, Strauss and Tappy back into the squad. Grimes, although not super accurate by foot, is handy because he runs and breaks the lines. On another note I think we really missed Green and Petterd on Saturday.

So true, and that is a big problem. At Hawthorn a young player can come in and have Hodge, Sewell, Mitchel, Buddy there to guide their progress, at Melbourne they are on their own. The coaches are going to have to be the ones to turn it around along with the young leadership group, they are going to have to stand up.

What gets me is we won the contested possessions & clearances, yet still get smashed. Last year, when we got smashed, it was because we got smashed in contested possessions & clearances. This year we've found another way to get smashed. To me, a one-dimensional game plan is one -dimensional, whichever dimension it involves. And it will always be smashed by a multidimensional game plan like we saw on Saturday. I'm just hoping that Neeld is smart enough to add other "dimensions" over time. Maybe he will. But that's exactly what I hoped about Bailey.

Your kidding right. As Melbourne supporters starved of success We want him to tear the competition apart. He has all the tools . I bag Bennell , doesn't mean I want him to dudd out. I'd love him to step up aswell. I want them all to get their backsides into gear. Hear the noises they're making at the Toigs .... That should be us .

This is a post I put on another thread in answer to Malthouse saying we are not that bad but that we need a good game plan. "If you get down to the basics, that first line says a lot. If you leave aside Buddy and Rioli we probably have players as good as many of the Hawks. Why then do they thrash us? Because they play ultra disciplined football to a strong game plan. Every one knows the plan and knows what is needed. Is Bruce a superstar or Cheney? No but they were contributors and played well because they played to the game plan. Do you have to be a champion to know to run and make position for the next kick when your team has the ball? Do you have to be a champion to know to make each possession of the other side a hard won contest? Break down the game and see where we lost. They contested hard at the stoppages, which either gave them possession or caused us to fumble. Once they had possession they ran to create position and short kicks to a clear man enabled the set up for a goal. What did we do? When we got the ball we either fumbled from the pressure or just bombed it forward to Clark etc who was usually up against 2 or 3 Hawks. Why is that? Because their game plan dictates when they don't have the ball some drop back and others attack the ball carrier. All the while Birchall is left all on his own to sweep up. The first thing I would do when playing them is man up Birchall. They are not unbeatable, but to beat them you must be disciplined and play to a strong plan. Hopefully Neeld will instill such a plan and discipline in our side. Those not willing to adhere and give their all can play at Casey. " What I was trying to get across is that except for a few players, we are not too different to Hawthorn. I don't believe that they are an 80 point better side than us, but that they play an 80 point better game than us. There is a difference. I believe they are very well coached and that all players are totally disciplined to play to the game plan at all times. If I was out there and ran to position and we had the ball I would probably get a kick. I am 60 and hopeless. The point is they can deliver the ball to exactly where there man is. We have had trouble with this for years. There are two aspects to this, first a a strong game plan and disclplined work ethic and second, decent disposal. I have harped on about our poor disposal for years and I recall hearing we would be drafting skilled players. I don't see the good disposal yet. Maybe it will come in time.How many times do we see a Demon make position and the ball is kicked at his ankles or over his head or 20 metres away from him. That sort of disposal will never allow you to be a good side. The other aspect is the plan and players discipline. When we tackle hard and put pressure on we look better.Unfortunately we only do it for periods in a game. That is not good enough. Did the Hawks let up on us. No and it was only a bloody NAB cup game. I hope that when we come to grips with Neeld's plan and work out who is prepared to play to it and give their all to it we will see better results.

My kids would.

I think he's very accurate in his analysis, but also seems to be obsessed with JW. I think his obsession shows that he thinks JW could really be something, and is just trying to light some fire under him. Here's to hoping that Neeld can toughen him up and make him elite.

That's a pretty strong message to Craig and Neeld and Co Neeld has made it very clear that no players will get special favours. In principle that is fine .... but no two people are the same - and coaches must retain a measure of flexibility if they are going to get the best out of every individual. There is a lot at stake for the club here and the new Football Department needs to close whatever gaps in its support network have emerged

That wouldn't stop any recording being used in Court. Nor would it stop evidence being given of something said by anyone who heard it (journo, cameramen, soundmen, anyone else in the room...) whether it was on camera or off camera. Also, I should clarify that the danger is not confined to talking about the case. Something said about an apparently unrelated topic might, for example, be inconsistent with what has been said to police. What if the following happened: "Police: were you carrying a weapon? LJ: No, I couldn't wield a weapon because my wrist hasn't healed yet and I wouldn't have the strength." "Eddie: Liam, how's the wrist? LJ: coming along well, thanks. I started weight training last week." Sorry to go on about this but you can all probably tell its a topic close to my heart!

Quality post Fork and worthy of an article on its own if you would like to rework it into that form. I think your post, the output of Martin Flanagan and this article on the Drum by Gerard Whateley A remote concept serve to help us outsiders grasp some sort of understanding of the problems of communities such as Yuendumu. There is one aspect which I diverge in opinion from that of Whateley in that this "was never a football story." To be certain, it was a rare glimpse into Indigenous Australia but I really believe it remains very much a football story as well. Absent football and the tragedy would remain but it would never have made so clear the message we've received in the past few days. The fact that it is a football story has raised the public's level of awareness to a point where if anything can be done externally to help these people there is more chance now than ever before. Unfortunately, I personally have no answer to what is a good outcome for this situation or how it can even be achieved.

Wouldn't a better instruction be to position himself somewhere where he can positively impact on the play?

It hasn't really been said up till now and perhaps it's because of the complexity of the issues involved or that it smacks of excuse making but the matter has been raised in a way on the club's site. Mark Neeld said after the game that the drama surrounding Liam Jurrah won't affect his team in the lead-up to round one - Jurrah drama 'won't affect' Dees I sincerely hope that to be the case and understand that the Jurrah "drama" is a matter of far wider importance than the sport of football but the events of the week would almost certainly affected the team dynamic last night. Just as many supporters followed the events from Alice Springs as they unfolded on Thursday and Friday, the players would have been no different and many would have been closely and emotionally involved. These things inevitably affect the team dynamic and it's understandable that in the early days after the event it's going to have an effect even if only subliminally among some of them. Hawthorn was the better team last night. Far better. But the Melbourne team that ran out onto Etihad Stadium did not appear to be fully focussed and the fact that Hawthorn had 6.2.38 on the board before Melbourne scored bears testimony to that fact. No excuse but I wonder how Hawthorn would have performed had it been one of its own much loved team mates who during the week was locked up in a Northern Territory gaol and facing serious criminal charges? Just another challenge for Mark Neeld and the football department.

Thanks for an insightful analysis. I've always been a Gysberts fan, but I have to say that his terrible form is the mystery of the preseason to me.

Mick Malthouse is right...that first 2 lines nail it. There’s not a lot wrong with Melbourne, except they have played without a modern game plan that resembles finals football. Their new coach Mark Neeld will kick their backsides raw. He’ll toughen them up, he’ll discipline them and he’ll have a game structure that is tried and proven.

I agree and it was i think his first game of the year. Even JC would struggle get saturdays night's team off the canvas. What worries me is he is probably going to have to carry more than 50% of the load. It is a very big job for someone so inexperienced, especially if we have a year similar to 2011. Poor kid will on his knees by mid year. Imagine having to shoulder the job through a few more of saturday nights results.

There was nothing sinister in it. It was simply Eddie asking Jurrah if he still wanted to play footy, to which he replied that besides family, footy is the most important thing and that he wants to continue living his dream. His grandma then spoke of the importance of Liam playing footy and what it means to his community and other indigenous kids living in remote communities. They mentioned nothing of the case at all. Had to turn it off as soon as Scully's face appeared on my screen. Kid makes me want to projectile vomit while throwing sharp objects at the TV. A lying, manipulative, heartless [censored].

Hear you go 'old dee', a modern day Bex formula. http://www.organicsa...capsules120.jpg & a good Lei down. But be careful when your getting Up.

Whats an iPhone?

After such a bad loss in such an important game I feel we should sack the coach, FD & captains. They have had plenty of time to correct the problems of the last 5 years. It's time for them to go. We should also trade in all our picks for the last 5 years for picks in next years draft.

You are probably fairly close to the mark Bing and my comments may be negative but I am very tired of being positive when the results consistantly show year in year year out that we are an ordinary side. Flat describes it and the problem will not go away, Jurrah will be a constant sourse of negative vibe all year. Just as TS was last year.

Don't blame the umpires for yesterdays loss. Blame being second to the ball & poorly exexuted tackles. Frustrating i know, but reality. I want to know what this club was teaching the list between October 2007 until late last year? Kicking & handballing skills are not gameplan, they are fundamentals to Aussie Football. Mark Neeld will earn every cent if he gets these boys firing.

How can one post be so right and so wrong at the same time? No issue with your assessment of where we are at. I agree that Hawthorn were terrific to watch in the manner in which they worked off the ball, and their defined gameplan is way ahead of ours. But to give some significance to a NAB cup game and to go further and say that a pre-season game is the most revealing since 186 is just ridiculous. Do you really believe that Carlton won't score in a second half against Brisbane this year? Or lose by over 10 goals? Do you really think Geelong will have the first 9 kicked on them at Skilled against anyone during the season? How about Richmond? Will GWS get within 3 points of Collingwood? What did our win over Collingwood tell you? Are we better than them now? Or is that just NAB Cup? There is no doubt Hawthorn is ahead of us. But let's not get too excited about a pre-season game.

Indeed, but a journey that must be had - the problem is the talk, the vitriol, the promises.......none of our latest draftees (with the possible exception of Howe) hit the packs with any conviction and resilience. That sh!ts me.

While Howe looks a good talent, it's insulting to put him above Robbo. I'd say it's a safe bet he'll never kick as many goals as Robbo ever did. He was a great servant for our club, is near the top of our club goal kickers list, and literally won us games off his own boot and helped us into finals series'. At this stage, Howe is a kid who has done nothing, so to even compare him to Robbo is insulting. It really irks me when supporters talk up current players and put down past players like Robbo, Yze, Bruce and the Daniher era etc. Those players took us to our best period of football in decades. The current batch have taken us to nearly our worst. While some of them look to be good talents, that's all they are at this point until they prove otherwise. It's been too long without finals, and it's getting tiresome supporting a weak on-field club. I'll always stick by them, but it's hard to get excited by them at present.

I am so relieved we managed to land Mitch Clark. Without him, and Neeld's other new hard, mature-age recruits (not to forget Neeld himself and his new assistants), we would definitely be looking at another 2011 this year. And the Hawks' Matt Suckling, a low end rookie draft pick, is the type of player I think we have been hoping Jamie Bennell would/will become. Buddy Franklin is also the arsiest player I have ever watched play the game.

Did anyone think that we would improve out of sight over 6 months with a new coaching staff. I know it's footy talk bout it will take time . 2013-2016 is our time to shine for i am hoping to build up to that and see improvement. I know I sound like a footy player talking to the media but I think it's the truth but it doesn't mean I am not frustrated either.

The decision to leave Davis on Hale was a mystery to me. From the first minute of the game I was puzzled as to why Sellar wasn't playing on Hale. Wasn't that why we recruited him? Didn't he play on Dawes last week? It can only be that Neeld saw it as an important part of Davis' education. I do think that Davis shows a lot, but last night those two were out of position in my opinion. I estimate that that decision cost us three goals (in spoils on Hale). We have to get some speed in the middle. I would persevere with Blease, Bail and Nicholson... in fact, in the current rotations, one of the trio has to be in the square at all times because the others are pedestrian. Blease's time has arrived IMO. Watts isn't doing well in one on one's but, JC, he is a classy finisher... Get the ball in his hands inside 40... He is so much better at this than Dunn, Martin, and Davey. Clarke and Watts should never be near to going for the same ball. For me, the Bennell experiment down back is over. We didn't have a crumming forward last night (another glaringly obvious deficiency as the players took up their positions for the first bounce). I have been a Davey fan throughout his career, love him, but the leg injury has the better of him. Bennell should be used to add ocassional bursts in the square and he should be taught to arrive, front and centre, to every Mitch Clarke contest. We will be better for the inclusion of Petterd, Tapscott Green and Grimes.

NAB Cup results this round Adelaide 138 vs Collingwood 61 Richmond 108 vs Geelong 49 Brisbane 104 vs Carlton 40 Yep that logic stands up well. Not saying our performance was acceptable, Neeld made that clear in his press conference but give it some context. Neeld also made it clear that he chose to stick with the zone because that is how we want to play. Do you seriously think that if that was mid season he would not have changed to man on man?

If any have watched Neeld's press conference it is blatantly obvious how much he hates losing and hated last nights performance. If that was his attitude to the press the boys would have been left in no uncertain terms where they went wrong with their attitude and application of game plan behind closed doors. It was a poor showing but give it some context. We started our best player from last week as a sub, subbed off our best player of the NAB cup with a dislocated finger, played Davis on Hale all game whilst our best backmen rested the second half. Neeld could have gone man on man to minimise the damage but stuck with the pressing zone as that is what will be our plan A and it needs to be learnt. I expect we will show consistency this year in beating the sides around our level however we do lack the polish required to challenge the better ones.

I try not to get worked up with the nab cup but im getting tired of sticking up for our team. When we are thinking they are starting to look good and doing all the right things its a new year we can only get better and the club says get on board we have done this and that. But then we have a lose like this again and all my passion and effort i put into the club feels like here we go again and i feel like s%%t. Melbourne have got to stop games like this we cant just say were young its o.k to go down by 120 points then win by 80 points we look like we are so weak to other clubs and i hate it because i dont stop loving this club i keep going and cheering and helping as much as i can. But this crap has got to stop you cant keep doing this to all your loyal fans i feel our team thinks its fine and has been breed like a bunch of women under bailey. Im sure neeld will save the younger guys but the old so called leaders will never change they dont even remember what winning is all about. Sorry guys i have had a few drinks and had my say and my cry but one thing is for sure we need to move some big names on to trade for some real mids and right now other then Clark.Watts,trengrove and frawley all names should be up for trade to get the job done god im drunk goodnight. P.S Thanks scully you little pr%%k

Centuries to Cowan (what an amazing two seasons he's had) and Ponting (his three scores since being given the axe from the ODI side have been 75*, 130 and 111), WA dismissed for 241 in the second innings. Tassie's total for outright victory is 21 - pretty sure they can manage that Jackson Bird's figures for the match were 11/95. You'd think the bowler would win the MOTM award - not that any of you care Oh, and some guy from India retired the other day.

count me in - especially Matthews. Played hard. Played fair. Played unfair. Either way he never uttered a word when he got pay back.

I didn't see anything wrong with it either, it wasn't personal, he expressed an opinion and was fairly measured. Do we need a new thread?

Ha ha ha, Melbourne will not land Pendlebury. No way in hell.

Big fan of Willo. Loved his trademark mark, feign the give off handball, then slip the man on the mark to slot it through. How that must have annoyed the bloke running past in the clear yelling hands! hands! lol