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Yup - all our players want at the end of their careers to be "one club players" and we envisage that this will be the case.

I certainly hope he's not getting paid for that! Disgraceful!!

I don't share the angst on this thread regarding the comments on Watts. It's understandable that supporters want to defend their own, it's a natural emotion, but I too despair at Watts intensity and lack of physicality. But I am patient. My own eyes tell me that Watts has a long way to go, so I'll hardly be outraged when Malthouse, Carey, Wallace and others make similar observations. And do supporters really think they know more than football people that have played in premierships ? You're delusional if you do. Tim Watson referred to Watts as a "floater" and that Koutifides was similar when he first started out. He thinks Watts will work it out. So do I. Everyone knows Watts has talent, everyone knows he was drafted when he was still at school as a 17 year old, everyone knows he's a skinny tall, everyone knows that skinny talls take time, and I donk think anyone is "writing him off". They're simply making judgments that he's about to commence his 4th year and right now he doesn't show the urgency required to play as a key forward. They would have all seen the pace, the kicking skills off both feet, the unbelievable hands/ability beneath his knees, the smart decisions he makes, etc. But they'd also note the half hearted one arm marking attempts, the decision not to comit to some packs, the passive tackling efforts, not always displaying the work-rate required, etc. Watts may have a really good year. I expect he'll have a better year than last and continue to show improvement. But I won't be up in arms if I hear, or read warranted criticism. Whether he likes it, or not, it goes with the territory of AFL footy, especially if you're a former no. 1 pick. Just as I won't complain if Watts is massively praised this year I won't complain if observations aren't as glowing. I'd be hypocritical if I did.

Training commenced around 9.50 am today, running laps and doing the same sort of drills that has been reported over the last few weeks.It finished around 11.55 am. There was an air of excitement there today, both from a confidence boost after last Saturday and Ron Barassi was there.Ron was doing some training due to Sixty Minutes doing a doco on the great man to be shown later in the year. He seems to have a great rapport with the new football department and in particular Neil Craig.(age may be a factor though).He said to me that he had never ever seen so many coaches in his lifetime coaching at the same time (reference to our coaching panel). Ron mixed with the crowd and had a photo shot with a class of school children who were at training for the event. Missing were Liam Jurrah and Michael Evans. I'm told both were back home .Jurrah, we all know ,whilst Evans was given a break to go home for a week or two.Max Gawn showed his face for a few minutes. All others were there as far as I could see. Luke Tapscott, Jack Grimes, Leigh Williams and Jake Spencer were the only ones I noticed who did not do full match day rehearsal. Grimes and Williams are expected to join next week,Tappy a couple of weeks away whilst Pencil looks great and is not far way as well. Ricky Petterd and Jared Rivers left early, both looking sore. I spoke to Ricky and he said he had mild concussion from last Saturday and had a few sore spots but would play this week. Nathan Jones left a few minutes after these two and said he would probably play a this week.Grimes, is busting to play. Trenners is really excited to strip this week also. Players who caught my eye at training were Josh Tynan, seems to read he play brilliantly, Davis, hard nut who also reads the play very well and Kelvin Lawrence. I wouldn't be surprised , based on training today that he strips this week. However, the real star was Jack Viney who could play now and be a sensational star, straight up. If you have any questions, I'll try to answer you. GO DEES.

We all have had bad days and nights, that is why I got suspended trying to protect WYL that's life.By the way I can cope.I am just a battler like Joel,we get there in the end. .

I have no problem with balanced criticism of Watts but what Malthouse said in my opinion was not balanced. Suggesting that he lacks ambition -pffft. Hey Mick - you certainly spent a fair bit of time defending Travis Cloke in his early days when he couldnt get within a kilometre of the ball. I think we all have a fairly good handle on the progress made last year by Watts I think most of us have fairly sensible expectations of what we wants this year - take last years good form and use that as the benchmark - kick more goals, impose himself on more contests. But I also think most of us ( I hope ) understand that he is a 20 year old kid still feeling his way and as long as we see constant improvement then thats fine.

I think both depth and Elite top 5 are important. Northey (i know -different era) - got the best out of a workman-like outfit - we had depth within the team in that the difference between the first and last picked was marginal. We suffered from a lack of a couple of superstar hence never taking us to the ultimate. You could level the same argument about Daniher. I then look at StKilda and how they boasted Lockett, Loewe(?), Harvey and Burke in their line up and knew that they would never win a premiership because their last 5 picked would have struggled to get a game in any other team. The Saints talent fell away dramatically after the first 10 picked. However - it is easier to lift your bottom 5 players to be really good contributors than to lift your top 5 players into an "elite" category (in my opinion depth will only get you so far - you need the superstars to take you to the top)

well, some of us are busy... and don't have the time... traditionally, I have 11 people I sign up each year, and I see a window in April and another in July... get off my back, you bastards... I have been financially suppoting the dees since 1969 (when I got my first job), so i don't need you jonny-come-latelys to tell me my duty... bugger off... regards to all (and bugger off)... rollo

Know this is completely off topic however I wanted it on the main board and furthermore it's something that was bought to my attention is really something everyone should view. It goes for 20 minutes but as a 21 year old male very rarely are you moved by videos but this was extraordinary. This was put on youtube today and has just over 250,000 views. http://vimeo.com/37119711 Please watch it and thank me later. Furthermore, please mods leave it a day than take it down. Cheers.

I've just got my Skype going for the first time. WoW! Sensational... A neighbor helped me set it up. It's easy. I'm going tho setup a couple of accounts, a personal one & a footy one.

Not sure if this is related but my cousin posted his new remote that he received from Foxtel on Facebook.

I always find comfort in the old saying that it is always the darkest before dawn. I86 was certainly the darkest and most humiliating moment for the club that I could remember. Much soul searching and swift changes have occurred since then and the season proper has not stared yet. There seem to be a different attitude around the club and with supporters. Just a few things I have noticed. Though it is still preseason there seems to be more competitiveness around the club. Never been so difficult to identify who could be our best 22 at round one. The new coaching regime seem to have sown the seeds for genuine work ethic and discipline amongst the players. There seems to be less spin and excuses coming out of the club and less tolerance for them from supporters. The inadequate leadership group has been banished. Different attitude amongst many supporters with a significant reduction of the passive acceptance of mediocrity as in the past. Any other opinions?

Do tell more JCB...i had no idea....PM me the details...i owe you a beer mate.

Well my mate is cousins with him and just moved to Melbourne. Sorry about spelling iPad auto correct

I can confirm that all going well- that is correct, although it maybe the weekend.,this is what was mentioned today at training.

I questioned today at training - Why are you using these sponsored Hankook footballs still.The answer came back,we have new ones put away, just waiting for the new announcement.I asked when? reply- very, very soon.Therefore sometime in 2012 hopefully.

Complete opposite? lol BJ is right, don't derail the training thread. Start your own and ask the question.

I strongly believe he will be back well before 10 weeks time.Looks if he could join main group soon.Did ruck work against Jamar & Fitzy today

Yeah, can't disagree with you there, but still don't think I'd have him in my top 5. I actually think I'm struggling to sneak him into my top 22?!

Please dont start this again on this thread

Yes, particularly clubs with players drafted from other states. Gold Coast and GWS have recently referred to it as being part of their player retention policy. Gary Ablett was a high profile case last year. West Coast has given Luke Shuey plenty of time to come back to Victoria in the past (when he’s been injured and for other personal leave), and he’s publicly said he owes the Eagles for the support and flexibility they’ve shown him.

A 28yo Colin Sylvia, closely followed by Mitch Clark, Jack Watts, Jack Trengove, Jack Grimes and add the Collingwood gun midfielder that is out of contact this year

This is full of subjectivity like "lacks intensity" " doesn't show the urgency". I prefer facts to perceptions. Back up this with some relevant stats please. As regards the supposed expertise of "Malthouse, Carey, Wallace and others" dont forget they are in the media business and it is in their interests to be provocative. They arent accountable for when they get it wrong. They have to fill air and they do and a lot of it is drivel. I saw enough last year to be satisfied that we have a good player in Watts. Just because a guy doesnt emote like some others (or beat up on his girlfriend for that matter) and therefore doesnt fill some alpha male sterotype doesnt mean he isnt passionate about the club and about winning and doing his part. Although I havent played in AFL Premierships (yet) I dont defer to some of the neanderthals that get media gigs on the basis of past glories. Neither should you.

If Matthews said "Watts isnt a child prodigy" - then I have no problem with that - Franklin and Judd were freakish from day one. Even NikNat has shown tricks since his first game. Watts hasn't. If Matthews said "Watts isnt worthy of no1 draft pick" - I disagree - the jury is still out for mine

Some may have been overly critical. Matthews simply said that he wasn't "a child prodigy". He said that in his limited viewing of him in that game he didn't see the traits that had made him a number one draft pick. He then added that clearly Melbourne have and that he's been drafted as a development player. I don't see anything wrong with Matthews' comments other than they were probably unnecessary, but to be fair he was asked a pointed question by Bruce McAveney and gave an honest assessment. Naturally, some won't agree with him. Malthouse was unnecessarily aggressive considering it was NAB 2, but I suspect it was a preconceived opinion that Watts didn't dispell with his performance. Dwayne Russell stated that Melbourne could have taken Naitanui and that Watts doesn't look like a first round draft pick. I thought he was the worst. So, yes, some have been too critical. But I have no problem with opposition supporters and many in the media who think we got the number one pick wrong. There would hardly be a neutral observer who right now thinks Watts was the right pick.

You make some valid points but I disagree with this Commentators and football fans have already labelled him the wrong # 1 pick and not up to it Leigh Matthews said after about his 5th game or so, he's done nothing to show he's worthy of pick one They may know he was drafted at 17 and skinny and and and and......but they are failing to give him the due leeway before sticking the boots in There is a certain venom and bile when people (mainly outside of our club) discuss Watts - it's almost like a disdain for him

Btw, apropos the real meaning of this thread, I heard David King get stuck into the skunk last night. He rightly pointed out that Folau's performance had taken the spotlight off his feable efforts. Naturally Lynch, who is with his management group, gave a lengthy excuse as to why he's behind in his current development. But as King pointed out, not only has Scully hardly touched the footy he doesn't look like hurting the opposition with his ball use. I've watched both his matches this year and King is spot on. If you didn't know his name you'd think he was a fringe player. Unfortunaley I accept that he's too professional and works too hard not to start having an impact, but he's a long way from being a dominant midfielder because he's just so small and physically weak compared to the best. He can't shrug tackles for starters.

Your top 6 is vitally important in your quest for a flag. Afterall, talent wins premierships. But quality depth is also important. If your 18th player is about the equivalent of your 32nd player and both are [censored] then you've got a [censored] side. In reality, depth isn't a subject that is nearly as simple as it sounds. I'm reading dismissive posts on this very thread and all it tells me is that some haven't given nearly enough consideration to the complexities involved in developing players and lists with quality depth. Unlike some on here I really rate structure and gameplans. I've read some posters who don't think there's much difference in the various gameplans and that they're not the be all and end all, but I couldn't disagree more. I bring this up because it gets back to the heart of "depth". With the right structures, training, disciplines and coaching the 26th best player on the list can play on GF day and perform a role really well. It could make or break a premiership tilt. I believe that depth will often be dependent on the quality of the coach, the quality of the gameplan, the quality of the coaching group, the quality of the leadership group, and ultimately the quality of the Board and administration. The best clubs nearly always have great Boards and admin. And this has been the case for time immemorial. You won't keep a great coach if you don't have these in place, or if you lose your way. Whether you like Ross Lyon as a coach or not doesn't really matter, the Saints lost someone that was considered by the industry a great coach. In essence these depth discussions only really touch the surface. There are a myriad of reasons why some clubs are able to develop players and some aren't. If you've got a great club and a great coach it won't be long before you have quality depth. You'll have cycles where you start losing depth, but you'll quickly recover. If a club doesn't have any money I'll show you a club with poor player depth. There are many complexities when it comes to a club's player depth. NB: Supporters of clubs will typically overrate their own club's depth due to large doses of bias.

Still waiting for the massive bump after that oh-so-important, well televised, and well reported ("What happened? Watts was shite, right?") win over Collingwood...

Given Mark Neeld is one of Mick Malthouse's proteges, is it plausable that Mick is giving Jack a serve about his intensity in order to assist Jacks development and to support his friend Mark Neeld? Neeld said recently that Jack came out of the private school footy system straight into AFL level (a big jump) without the pressure and intensity of going through the TAC cup, AIS, system etc... I've often though of Jack as like a lion cub who would need to shed the baby fat and "harden up" (physically and mentally) in order to prosper in the big league. Mick is assisting him to do that. At the end of the day, the media, Mick Malthouse and us would not be having this conversation if Jack didn't have the potential to be an absolute superstar. Interesting year ahead in his development, bring it on. Go Jack Go Dees

You would have to assume it is a trend, otherwise Neeld would not be coming out stating that he is happy with the way players are sticking to structures etc.... I would imagine if the kids were just bombing it long then the coaches would not be happy, and would say that publicly. I recall geelong changed their style slightly in the last few rounds of last year which saw them blow collingwood apart in the last couple of rounds of the year and ultimately got them a flag. That change saw them booting the ball long and deep into their forward line and pressure around the contest deep in their forward half.... whilst they still played in the corridor and not down the flanks, you can't help but wonder whether Neeld tried a similar plan against Collingwood. Whether that same style is used against the Hawks, I don't know.... but he did mention the need for us to have multiple styles of play, and that the very best teams can switch that up in the middle of a game, .... one reason why I am interested to see how we go against the Hawks. Am actually very happy that we have had back to back matches against these two clubs in the preseason.... two of the best teams out there, with different styles of play. Good preparation for our boys, and managing to snag a win @ etihad against the Pies will give them enormous confidence in what Neeld and the other coaches have been drilling into them over the preseason...

Well answered. It is often mentioned how frangrantly we tanked. We did tank - in one game against Richmond. A pulsating affair that showed how we nearly screwed it all up - we required Jordan McMahon to kick a goal after the siren from 50m out... We were never going to beat St Kilda - despite our oh-so-fast start... Most clubs have tanked for the PPs, but because of MFC fans perpensity for self-loathing we have let the greater football public lump Bailey and the MFC with all the ills of The Tank in AFL Footy ©. We didn't start it, we didn't end it, and we, in the end, didn't even profit from it. So who gives a f...?

Whilst I agree with a fair bit of your post 'Jackie' , I dispute the 2 to 3 years of tanking bit . A few games near the end of 2009 but the rest of the time we were simply a basket case . Generally incapable of winning and poorly coached . Weren't we developing and rebuilding our list as well ? Many other clubs tanked for longer periods of time and have seemingly gotten away with it . The general public point the finger at us but how about Carlton for about 4 years ? Pies in 2005 , Hawks in 2004 and 2005 etc etc . It's a long grubby list and we shouldn't be the "fall guy" . I see it often on this site . Demon fans beating themselves up over this tanking issue for no good reason . We shouldn't be bullied into submission . For instance , how on earth were we capable of beating the Saints in the last round of 2009 ? We played Carlton the previous week who won 13 games that year . Saints won 20 games . One day I'm going to compile a list in a thread of all the "suspect" finishes to the year (by various teams) . It's a long list and amounts to about 23 times teams have "probably/possibly" tanked . Cheers .

I am a fan of nuance but let's get serious - depth is easier to find than a quality 5 or 6 players. And your depth will not get you into the top 4, your stars will, and that is the only way to win a flag. We have never had any issues finding decent players - it's the star players we haven't been able to develop. Until that happens we won't have much success.

I have absolutely no concerns about Watts. I think he'll be a bloody good player for us. And comparing him with number one draft picks from other drafts is plainly ridiculous. Those players weren't ever in the mix with the pick we used on Watts. Comparing Watts to the likes of Nik Nat or Hurley is IMO more relevant. Why? Because we could actually have picked those players in that year. It might be that the sands have now shifted, but MOST clubs would've picked Watts had they had our number one pick in 2008. Surely comparisons with other number one draft picks is more relevant to ascertaining how good the respective draft years were.

What many people forget is that Jack was drafted as a 17 year old schoolboy who was tall but very lightly built. He is only 20 now yet people talk as if he is a 25 year old who should be tearing the competition apart. He has also played all of his 40 games in a crap team. Travis Cloke was considered a spud until about 2008 playing in a good team Jack Reiwoldt is in the same boat until 2010 when he was in his 4th year and 22 years old. Bottom line is, Jack is still going to have his ups and downs this year and maybe even next year as he still adds size and strength to his frame and settles his position in the team down. I have no doubt he will become a very good AFL player. Whether he becomes Elite no-one knows. But the bottom line is i couldn't care if he is coming off the bench as a role player if the role he plays helps us win that 13th premiership....

Personally, it frustrates me that some supporters are soooo optimistic. When I challenge that optimism, I'm attacked for being too negative. People mistake expectations for negativity. I expect the club to perform. I do not expect 186 point losses. And so, it's reached a point now where I am no longer optimistic. I am just going to sit back and say, "OK, you talk a lot, but how big is your bark?" I have "faith", but optimism is earned. I am optimistic that Neeld knows what he's doing, but I am not optimistic that the club can win a flag. That comes down to criticism as to the club's culture, mindset, and willingness to succeed across the board. Saying, "we are making crossroads" means nothing until we are leading, or at least near to leading, in every facet, including revenue, assets, membership. At the moment, I am personally not especially impressed. I am sure they are trying, but, eh, get the job done? I'll be optimistic when we make the finals 2-3 years in a row, start posting consecutive profits, improve our membership growth and social media presence, oh, and sign a major sponsor. Until then, I'll be critical about the club's ability to perform. The 186 point loss made me a livid, angry man, and I simply cannot accept it, even to this day. Everyone should be held accountable, and the ultimate redemption is success. IMO, if you think any other way, you're accepting mediocrity. Or at least passing it off as something easily rectified.

Also has anyone else noticed that when Watts has his socks down he plays crap, when his socks are up he plays well, when his socks are shin height he plays alright without influencing. This sock height business may be a sign of confidence and form. JUST A THOUGHT.................

Black & White argument. Never forget the shades of grey. Some may suggest you need both, depth and a quality top 5-6. Your depth will get you into the finals, then your quality (5-6) will rise to the top and win them for you.

What! depth is crucial. If you don't have depth you don't have anything. Now were finding our depth we need to unearth those champions your alluding too. Each thing in it's turn. Having 5 champions without any real quality depth will get you nowhere.

How quickly Rivers has fallen away. I know Sellar has looked impressive for the past two weeks but I do remmeber Rivers have a fairly decent season last year. 2nd in the b&f was it not. He gets a gig in my 22 every day of the week.

Worst Post ever in the History of Demonland....

Yeah too right and whilst we're at it lets get rid of paid: maternity leave, paternity leave, compassionate leave, carers leave and even sick leave. All that leave is just plain [censored]. Employers are not welfare agencies! (oh except the ones that are - and they don't have enough money to pay for the namby pamby frivolous leave listed above)

He frustrates me sometimes but bloody hell lets get behind this kid. He's getting well and truly smashed in the media, I feel sorry for him.

Terry Wallace has an opinion but it doesn't really matter any more than the turd I flushed yesterday . Same goes with Mick Malthouse. I don't get called by Sen or any other moron riddled tabliod outfit for my opinion but Jack Watts will rip teams apart one day -I just know.

Yes , there were some positive signs . This Saturday night is another little stepping stone . I'll be looking for the same sort of attack on the ball , regardless of who Hawthorn put up against us . A win will be a bonus . Cheers

I reckon he could be better value than NicNat! Not as flashy but just as entertaining!

Scored 10 votes in the Brownlow. 2nd best of all players at MFC, led the club for goal assists and second for tackles, and top five for possessions better than Trenners,Jones,McKenzie ect. A lot better than people give him credit for.

He might be in his 9th season but his first 4 was over coming and managing OP, from Memory it was only about 2-3 years ago he had the operation to fix this. To me Col Sylvia is a midfielder that has had to spend to much time playing deep forward due to injury restrictions and our lack of key forwards. The ideal role for Col is that high half forward that plays more like the old fashioned wingman linking the backs to forwards. I would like to see him spend more time in the midfield but once again you want him to play that old fashioned centreman working between the defensive and attacking 50m arcs. We need Col delivering the footy to our forwards and also work to be able to kick those 50m+goals. I think we are still to see the best of Col, hopefully we can get 8-10games of the very good Col and only 1-2 games of the very bad Col in 2012. He is the most dangerous player on our list when playing well.

I hope we have a great win in Round 1 with no injuries, meaning the Round 2 side has 'no changes' and Col has to slug it out at Casey. He is way too good for that level but i cant think of any other way to get him to work harder/be consistent. He is still one of my favourite players in the whole league, and would be my absolute #1 if he just had his great games more often. Has the right stuff to win a Brownlow, it just doesn't come out enough.