Ruckmen

Must say I was impressed with Matthew Kreuzer's game last night, not just his ruck work either. He looks a great acquisition for the Carlton Football Club. Both he and R.Warnock will provide Carlton much power at centre bounces, stoppages, throw-ins. Both are young, yet have been in the system more than a couple of years now.

I look at West Coast and see much the same thing in Dean Cox and N.Naitanui.

These two clubs will be well assisted as they embark on going places.

In both cases their ruckman can be more than a handful going forward. Whilst the jury might be out on Warnock up forward, Naitanui and Kreuzer will create havoc at their respective clubs. Both very athletic, both very competitive in putting pressure on opposition when the pill hits the deck, both more than capable in the air and in contested pack situations.

I know some here are big on plucking ruckmen out late in the draft or even chancing one through the rookie list every year until we find one. And if luck plays a part we might just find a Cox.

The thing is we'll need to, because IMO if we don't find ourselves a dominant ruckman for our "window" whenever that might be, we won't be able to compete against the forces of West Coast (Cox, Naitanui) and Carlton (Kreuzer, Warnock)who will probably be forces when our club is reaching the higher echelon's of the ladder in 4-5 years time.

From what I gather Ruckmen in the main aren't really seen as important as midfielders, forwards, etc. The consensus might be that any ruck will do as long as they don't bend over in a ruck contest and are somewhat accountable. In my opinion, guys like Kreuzer & Naitanui - whilst hard to come accross - aren't really your norm ruckmen. IMO these two in particular show the ability to be more influential on the game than any ruckmen in the history of the game. Development permitting. Big call I know, but for now I'll hold my opinion.

In summary, I think we'll need a influential ruckman as part of the side in 4-5 years time. Whether or not we trade for one, or draft/rookie one that becomes this, I don't know. However, seeing as though we have the seeds sown (as it appears) for our backline and our mids stocks replenished, whilst work in progress is in the early stages of the forward line. Our ruck stocks are up in the air. We have Jamar - but how long will he last or will he be the answer ? (Jury is out); Meesen ? PJ ? and a young Spencer ? Martin ? Gawn (promise ?) ? Not sure with any of them holding their own, let alone being dominant.

Big question marks as far as I'm concerned.

It's even more of a concern watching the likes of Kreuzer grow into the game.

I'm very excited about Max Gawn as a ruck prospect.

We have Jamar - but how long will he last or will he be the answer ? (Jury is out); Meesen ? PJ ? and a young Spencer ? Martin ? Not sure with any of them holding their own, let alone being dominant.

Big question marks as far as I'm concerned.

It's even more of a concern watching the likes of Kreuzer grow into the game.

Gawn, but in this case, forgotten? Once recovered and able to start the hard work. Also, I imagine Fitzpatrick may one day turn out to be something.

Gawn, but in this case, forgotten? Once recovered and able to start the hard work. Also, I imagine Fitzpatrick may one day turn out to be something.

I'm still confident Stef Martin will come good as a ruck option.

in the air. We have Jamar - but how long will he last or will he be the answer ? (Jury is out); Meesen ? PJ ? and a young Spencer ? Martin ? Gawn (promise ?) ? Not sure with any of them holding their own, let alone being dominant.

spencer has been given games,,,but i just haven't seen enough of him.

messen needs to get himself fit again.

i'm starting to view Martin in the same light as miller...probably a little harsh at this stage of his career but both showed a little

promise early on in there careers. He needs to do more. Otherwise he is just another avg player.

i would think PJ could be pushed onto the rookie list next year...given whats happend with newton and meesen...this will depend on how jamar goes with game time this year...

Gawn just needs to learn everything he can off Jamar, Spencer, Meesen, Martin and PJ...all of whom have rucked at AFL level...priorty for gawn is just to get over his current injuries...if he gets an AFL game this year..then that's a bonus for melb

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Paul Johnson beat the leagues best ruckmen Sandilands in the last game he played. Paul Johnson is way under-rated, from my perspective, he covers the ground well, is hard at it, can kick goals, can take marks and he can beat Sandinlands in ruck contests.

Jamar is a tough man who has got a great leap and a strong pair of hands. He is good in ruck contests aswell.

We are also developing Spenser and Martin, Gawn, Fitz.

RELAX, we have got depth in our ruck stocks.

If we can't get a Natainui or a Kreuzer (because we won't get high draft picks now), I'll happily take Sandilands 2.0 instead - Gawn is 208cm, possibly still growing a bit, and already weighs over 100kgs. He looks an exciting prospect, a man-mountain in the making, and supposedly he can actually kick the ball alright and run around a bit.

Gawn just needs to learn everything he can off Jamar, Spencer, Meesen, Martin and PJ...all of whom have rucked at AFL level

Nooooooooooo don't let him do that: solid, young spud, injured spud, part-timer, the 200cm winger. Can't see a heap of match-winning advice in there, but maybe I'm being a tad harsh

Obviously we would love to have a player like Dean Cox playing for us. He is an all-round great player - both in the clearances and around the ground.

But it is also a question of economics given we operate in a salary cap environment. I think St Kilda's approach to the ruck is a much smarter way to go. They have recruited two good quality players (in Gardner and King) and are paying them a pittance compared to what both Carlton and West Coast are paying for ruckmen. This has left them with room in the salary cap to hold onto champions like Reiwoldt, who are much more influential in winning games of football IMO.

I'm still confident Stef Martin will come good as a ruck option.

Martin will never become a ruckman as such.. A pinch hitter -yes maybe.. We will have Jamar, Spencer and I think the best being..Gawn...He really impressed me as not only a ruckman but also as a forward..a bit like a Salmon..in the Under 18's.

RELAX, we have got depth in our ruck stocks.

We've got depth have we ?

Any quality ruckmen?

Or is there another kind ?

Obviously, everyone seems to want to go with the status quo going by the non popularity of this thread. No one would like a dominant ruckman to take on the likes of Kreuzer, Naitanui, Cox, Warnock & Co in the years to come.

Ask yourselves can Jamar acquit himself well against these types and have the better of them around the ground? Because he's our No.1 ruck at present. If the answer is no, start crossing your fingers.

My point is if we're going to rebuild from scratch and have our sites set on a Premierhip, you want to have at least one Premier ruckman of the comp competing against Kreuzer or Nik Nat in 4-5 years time, otherwise the rebuild could go to waste and we'll pretty much get smashed !

If someone like Gawn developed and competed as much as in the air than on the ground as Kreuzer and Naitanui do, I'd be over the moon. But at the moment no one knows any wiser because he is rehabilitating and years away from showing a great deal.

I'm very excited about Max Gawn as a ruck prospect.

Excited because of his height ?

Until he shows his wares, I'll remain seated.

We've got depth have we ?

Any quality ruckmen?

Or is there another kind ?

Obviously, everyone seems to want to go with the status quo going by the non popularity of this thread. No one would like a dominant ruckman to take on the likes of Kreuzer, Naitanui, Cox, Warnock & Co in the years to come.

Ask yourselves can Jamar acquit himself well against these types and have the better of them around the ground? Because he's our No.1 ruck at present. If the answer is no, start crossing your fingers.

My point is if we're going to rebuild from scratch and have our sites set on a Premierhip, you want to have at least one Premier ruckman of the comp competing against Kreuzer or Nik Nat in 4-5 years time, otherwise the rebuild could go to waste and we'll pretty much get smashed !

If someone like Gawn developed and competed as much as in the air than on the ground as Kreuzer and Naitanui do, I'd be over the moon. But at the moment no one knows any wiser because he is rehabilitating and years away from showing a great deal.

I think lots of people underestimate the Russian. He is not only one of the best tap ruckmen around, but is an outstanding pack mark. With Spencer and Gawn in the team, I can see him developing into a dominant forward in the Salmon mould, and teamed with Watts, Jurrah, Bate, Pettard, Davey, Tengove, Sylvia - i reckon that in two to three years time is a premiership winning forward line.

Johnson beat Sandilands in the last game he played. need I say more.

too many negative melb supporters. grow some balls.

Johnson beat Sandilands in the last game he played. need I say more.

too many negative melb supporters. grow some balls.

Negative ? Read again BIH.

Yes, you do need to say more if you're pinning all your hopes on one performance.

I would be happy to rove to Johnson and Jamar. They are tough competitors that can go forward. You can have your Kruzer or Warnock, I'll stick with Jamar and Johnson.

I think with Jamar, Johnson, Meesen et al 200cms isnt big enough for tap dominance and if you cant achieve that then you need another string - mobility, marking etc. 200cms is nowadays good for a forward see Tippet, Fitzpatrick, sheeeeeeat Watts is 196!

What is impressive about Kreuser is the guy gets the ball off the ground as well as marks and taps around the ground. Yes ruck is more than height but there appears to be two styles of ruck developing - the big tops or battleships like Sandilands, Jolly, Cox and hopefully Gawn. et al and the heavy cruisers like Kreuser, Natanui.

I agree to the generic proposition that our ruck stocks are not up to scratch.

Speaking of which: http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/91109/default.aspx

Says that Roughead might get a go in the ruck.

From what I gather Ruckmen in the main aren't really seen as important as midfielders, forwards, etc. The consensus might be that any ruck will do as long as they don't bend over in a ruck contest and are somewhat accountable. In my opinion, guys like Kreuzer & Naitanui - whilst hard to come accross - aren't really your norm ruckmen. IMO these two in particular show the ability to be more influential on the game than any ruckmen in the history of the game. Development permitting. Big call I know, but for now I'll hold my opinion.

I agree with that first part.

When we're a club who pays only a percentage of our salary cap (I know we're paying 100% this year, but that's because we're front-loading), the direction out BIG money goes becomes VERY important. NicNat would within a few years become one of WC's highest paid players you would think. Likewise, Kruezer, Cox... etc.

If we have only a CERTAIN amount of cash, and we can spend 500,00 + only on a couple of players a year... I would hope they'd be forwards or midfielders. Just midfielders preferably. It's GREAT to have a star (read:expensive) ruckman... but not at the expense of a great mid. That's my opinion at least. A ruckman like Hille would be nice. Not a superstar, but a good player who holds his own week in week out. curtailing, or at least matching the output of the gamebreakers. Looking at Jamar's footy this past year and a bit, it seems to me that he can be that sort of player... it's in him.

Paul Johnson beat the leagues best ruckmen Sandilands in the last game he played. Paul Johnson is way under-rated, from my perspective, he covers the ground well, is hard at it, can kick goals, can take marks and he can beat Sandinlands in ruck contests.

Jamar is a tough man who has got a great leap and a strong pair of hands. He is good in ruck contests aswell.

Johnson also went with Cox and played as good a game as him when we played them. And those two weren't his only good performances last year. Yes he had some shockers and was dropped, but then before he hit 2009, so did Jamar. He had whole SEASONS of shockers.

Our ruck stocks aren't a shining light. But they're not as bad as people say.

I would be happy to rove to Johnson and Jamar. They are tough competitors that can go forward. You can have your Kruzer or Warnock, I'll stick with Jamar and Johnson.

You'd be happy with Johnson and your thermos full of hot chocolate, but others (of which there are plenty) would be mightily frustrated.

The bottom line is I want a side to be reckoned with. I wish not to finish outside the eight time after time. It's a flag that drives this opinion. Guys like Spencer & Gawn might show promise, Martin might turn to out to be something else, but these guys one day will have to compete and win over the likes of Kreuzer & Naitanui in 4-5 years time. AT this point it's all up in the air in terms of uncertainty, but it's worth discussing now. Decisions will be made on Meesen and maybe Johnson come season's end. I want our FD (timmy Harrington and the boys) to be as active as they were last draft.

You want to stick with Johnson ? Well have a nice cuppa and enjoy your Sunday afternoons at the footy.

I think with Jamar, Johnson, Meesen et al 200cms isnt big enough for tap dominance and if you cant achieve that then you need another string - mobility, marking etc. 200cms is nowadays good for a forward see Tippet, Fitzpatrick, sheeeeeeat Watts is 196!

What is impressive about Kreuser is the guy gets the ball off the ground as well as marks and taps around the ground. Yes ruck is more than height but there appears to be two styles of ruck developing - the big tops or battleships like Sandilands, Jolly, Cox and hopefully Gawn. et al and the heavy cruisers like Kreuser, Natanui.

I agree to the generic proposition that our ruck stocks are not up to scratch.

Burke,

David Neitz is 196 cm. Need i say more? Jack Watts will be a superstar....

We've got depth have we ?

Any quality ruckmen?

Or is there another kind ?

Obviously, everyone seems to want to go with the status quo going by the non popularity of this thread. No one would like a dominant ruckman to take on the likes of Kreuzer, Naitanui, Cox, Warnock & Co in the years to come.

Ask yourselves can Jamar acquit himself well against these types and have the better of them around the ground? Because he's our No.1 ruck at present. If the answer is no, start crossing your fingers.

My point is if we're going to rebuild from scratch and have our sites set on a Premierhip, you want to have at least one Premier ruckman of the comp competing against Kreuzer or Nik Nat in 4-5 years time, otherwise the rebuild could go to waste and we'll pretty much get smashed !

If someone like Gawn developed and competed as much as in the air than on the ground as Kreuzer and Naitanui do, I'd be over the moon. But at the moment no one knows any wiser because he is rehabilitating and years away from showing a great deal.

I think we can all agree Jamar is our best ruckmen but I think we are wasting our time discussing his future at Melbourne as I think he will be following Garry Ablett to GC17.

We have put alot of time into Jamar and Johnson, now they are at the age that we will see dividends and some people want to throw them away. I do not understand your logic. They just might be good strong ruckmen until for the next 5 years until Gawn and Fitzpatrick take over. Seems like a good succesion plan to me. Dappa Dan is correct, Johnson and Jamar have played enough good games and shown enough positive signs to suggest they can handle the big occasions on a consistant basis. If not, bring in Spenser, Martin, Gawn and Fitzpatrick. Out ruck depths are good, I like what we have got. Still I reckon Jamar might be good at full forward. Why can't they play to their potential every week, maybe thay can. High Tower suggest we should consider trading Johnson, maybe to Sydney like we did with Jolly, perhaps?

Excited because of his height ?

Until he shows his wares, I'll remain seated.

No, not just his height. I havn't seen him play, but from what I have read he is mobile for his size and in the under 18s he showed that he can kick a goal when he goes forward. A lot of reports suggest that he would have gone earlier in the draft if it hadn't been for his knee reco.

Fair enough that you prefer to remain seated until he shows his wares ..... I just come from a more optimistic school.