2000 game turnover in 2 years

[youami 54]

Deliseted/Retired at the end of 2007

Bizzell 165, Ward 136, Johnstone 160, N.Brown 146, Godfrey 105, Picket 204, Ferguson 47, plus other who didn’t play a game. All up 963 games of experience gone.

Potentially at the end of 2008 we could lose even more in one year.

A projection of games played at years end.

Neitz 310, Holland 190, Yze 270, White 270, Whelan 140 (1180 all up). I’d say of those, the only one that might stay is White.

2143 games (roughly) lost in two years. Make no mistake Bailey is rebuilding, and make no mistake the list management of the MelbourneFC pre Bailey was deplorable.

Thoughts?

[The Red Fox 216]

Good thread...

That core group of players who carried us to the finals in '00, '02, '04-'06 are now at retirement age. Remember 57 weeks ago we were 'having a crack at the flag', but the demise of Neita, Yze, White, Bizzell , Whelan and Pickett over the past two years suggests our best opportunity had already passed us by.

Daniher built what he hoped would be a premiership side, he fell short, and now we start afresh.

Interestingly, I read recently that Mark Thompson is already developing the next generation of Cats, despite the premiership window being open. That's the trick isn't it, to manage your list for the 'now' and the future.

[jumbo returns 6,740]

Deliseted/Retired at the end of 2007

Bizzell 165, Ward 136, Johnstone 160, N.Brown 146, Godfrey 105, Picket 204, Ferguson 47, plus other who didn’t play a game. All up 963 games of experience gone.

Potentially at the end of 2008 we could lose even more in one year.

A projection of games played at years end.

Neitz 310, Holland 190, Yze 270, White 270, Whelan 140 (1180 all up). I’d say of those, the only one that might stay is White.

2143 games (roughly) lost in two years. Make no mistake Bailey is rebuilding, and make no mistake the list management of the MelbourneFC pre Bailey was deplorable.

Thoughts?

Interesting reading - I agree that list management was shocking during the Daniher years and we needed to be more aggressive with our turnover. The problem was that players were not offered up for trade when they had some value. I understand that this is a subjective scenario, but no mistake, I'm still shaking my head at the philosophy behind the recruitment of Phil Read, Craig Ellis, Gary Moorcroft and others of the same ilk.

Has Craig Cameron gone to Richmond? Was he that good a recruiter?

[Cards13 9,117]

Interesting reading - I agree that list management was shocking during the Daniher years and we needed to be more aggressive with our turnover. The problem was that players were not offered up for trade when they had some value. I understand that this is a subjective scenario, but no mistake, I'm still shaking my head at the philosophy behind the recruitment of Phil Read, Craig Ellis, Gary Moorcroft and others of the same ilk.

Has Craig Cameron gone to Richmond? Was he that good a recruiter?

Hey Jumbo... Have you got facts to back that up? I'd be interested to see if we did not offer players to trade away, i'd suggest Danners would not have wanted to trade anyone as he was such a players man.

Would also be interested to see if other clubs wanted any of our players and the offers they made. We seem to keep players based on potential when they could have been traed away for potentially decent draft picks.

I have spent two years in the USA and watched NBA, NFL and NHL and how they go about the trades scenarios... they are not afraid to trade away 4, 5, 6 players in one go. I know they are different games but the principles are the same. Salary cap, win now mentalities for some clubs, rebuilding phases through the drafts for others... AFL as a whole needs to become more savy about trading, with a caveat. Very few teams in NBA, NFL, NHL have won championships trading for talent without an already decent core of talent, the Boston Celtics look like they could buck the trend. The draft is the way to build strong championship lists in salary cap sports which then moves to list management which we have been poor at.

[jumbo returns 6,740]

Hey Jumbo... Have you got facts to back that up? I'd be interested to see if we did not offer players to trade away, i'd suggest Danners would not have wanted to trade anyone as he was such a players man.

Would also be interested to see if other clubs wanted any of our players and the offers they made. We seem to keep players based on potential when they could have been traed away for potentially decent draft picks.

I have spent two years in the USA and watched NBA, NFL and NHL and how they go about the trades scenarios... they are not afraid to trade away 4, 5, 6 players in one go. I know they are different games but the principles are the same. Salary cap, win now mentalities for some clubs, rebuilding phases through the drafts for others... AFL as a whole needs to become more savy about trading, with a caveat. Very few teams in NBA, NFL, NHL have won championships trading for talent without an already decent core of talent, the Boston Celtics look like they could buck the trend. The draft is the way to build strong championship lists in salary cap sports which then moves to list management which we have been poor at.

Hey Cards13....no, no facts. Unlike most of the posters on this site, who are in the inner sanctum and kkknnnoowww everything, I have no such kudos. Danners wasn't a No 22 man, he wasn't a big fan of No 5, traded matty bishop, failed to develop chris lamb and ryan ferguson....etc. Like I said, only hearsay, unsubstantiated, and I stand before you fragile and naked............figuratively speaking of course!!! I'm not convinced that your comparison is valid - there are so many leagues over there, bigger population, more coin, everything. The teams in the AFL are more coy about their trades, in relation to not giving anyone away that might help the opposition improve their position. Secondly, some clubs will not trade with each other. That's a fact - isn't it?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Deliseted/Retired at the end of 2007

Bizzell 165, Ward 136, Johnstone 160, N.Brown 146, Godfrey 105, Picket 204, Ferguson 47, plus other who didn’t play a game. All up 963 games of experience gone.

Potentially at the end of 2008 we could lose even more in one year.

A projection of games played at years end.

Neitz 310, Holland 190, Yze 270, White 270, Whelan 140 (1180 all up). I’d say of those, the only one that might stay is White.

2143 games (roughly) lost in two years. Make no mistake Bailey is rebuilding, and make no mistake the list management of the MelbourneFC pre Bailey was deplorable.

Thoughts?

The retirements were a consequence that many of the players had reached the end of their useful life as AFL footballers. In the case of many of them we held onto deadwood far too long. Many of the footballers listed were gone before Bailey and number of games gives no indication of capability going forward. Only TJ and Brown were best 22 from the group departed last year.

TJ was the only effective choice of DB to act.

From this year possibly all those players listed for 2008 should go as well.

Bailey has no choice but to clean out and retire a number of players who have been kept far too long. His rebuild is being forced by circumsntances that preceded his arrival.

Jumbo is correct about not offering up players when they had value. We took the brave and right decision on Woewodin in 2002 and we let it slip after that.

On the previous site I had argued that we should have done the following:

2004 Traded Yze and TJ. Let Bizzell go the PSD.

2005 Traded White, Robbo

2006 Not traded for Pickett.

Its come back to haunt us big time with the biggest deadwood clearance this side of a Bunnings warehouse.

57 weeks ago WM most of the players listed were also at the end of the career. ND held on for one more roll of the dice for a flag and it went awfully pear shaped but the signs were there earlier and he put reliance in front runners like Yze that withered as time went on.

Unless a marque player is available trading will only top up your existing list to complement what is already there. AFL trading is normally full of NQR who are despatched by their clubs for a good reason. And as a reliable resource for talent it is grossly overrated.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Danners wasn't a No 22 man, he wasn't a big fan of No 5, traded matty bishop, failed to develop chris lamb and ryan ferguson....etc.

Partially. No 5 was his own worst enemy and he was finished as a player well before he actually retired. Lamb and Ferguson were not any good period.

[Cards13 9,117]

Hey Cards13....no, no facts. Unlike most of the posters on this site, who are in the inner sanctum and kkknnnoowww everything, I have no such kudos. Danners wasn't a No 22 man, he wasn't a big fan of No 5, traded matty bishop, failed to develop chris lamb and ryan ferguson....etc. Like I said, only hearsay, unsubstantiated, and I stand before you fragile and naked............figuratively speaking of course!!! I'm not convinced that your comparison is valid - there are so many leagues over there, bigger population, more coin, everything. The teams in the AFL are more coy about their trades, in relation to not giving anyone away that might help the opposition improve their position. Secondly, some clubs will not trade with each other. That's a fact - isn't it?

Na you're right JR, just would have been interesting to see some facts. I agree with you though that they failed to develop those two players but at the same time were they actually as good as the position they were drafted???

Yea and I think the coyness is where some change might need to take place... along the lines of opening up and looking at say a Hawthorn and see they have a bucket load of talent.. can we as a club convince them we have one player/draft pick that will get them over the top for a Boyle or a Williams who seem to be expendable but would help us out.. Or a Geelong, how many excess players do they have that we might be able to try and target that would add some value? Would they add any value? Would it be better for us to keep all our draft picks/players (I doubt we'd get one offer for any of our players) and build through the draft over 3 years near the bottom?

[Cards13 9,117]

The retirements were a consequence that many of the players had reached the end of their useful life as AFL footballers. In the case of many of them we held onto deadwood far too long. Many of the footballers listed were gone before Bailey and number of games gives no indication of capability going forward. Only TJ and Brown were best 22 from the group departed last year.

TJ was the only effective choice of DB to act.

From this year possibly all those players listed for 2008 should go as well.

Bailey has no choice but to clean out and retire a number of players who have been kept far too long. His rebuild is being forced by circumsntances that preceded his arrival.

Jumbo is correct about not offering up players when they had value. We took the brave and right decision on Woewodin in 2002 and we let it slip after that.

On the previous site I had argued that we should have done the following:

2004 Traded Yze and TJ. Let Bizzell go the PSD.

2005 Traded White, Robbo

2006 Not traded for Pickett.

Its come back to haunt us big time with the biggest deadwood clearance this side of a Bunnings warehouse.

57 weeks ago WM most of the players listed were also at the end of the career. ND held on for one more roll of the dice for a flag and it went awfully pear shaped but the signs were there earlier and he put reliance in front runners like Yze that withered as time went on.

Unless a marque player is available trading will only top up your existing list to complement what is already there. AFL trading is normally full of NQR who are despatched by their clubs for a good reason. And as a reliable resource for talent it is grossly overrated.

I think the only issue with the logic of trading some of those names is the footy dept of the time thought they were all required players... Now that veiw seems pretty clearly to not have been correct.. You have to give up something to get something, Danners and CAC thought they had the list to win a flag....

Like you said RR Bails is stuck with what has been left over and he will have a number of years to try and get out of this hole.

And correct the AFL draft is NQR players and maybe they need to look at it a little differently especially with the two new teams coming being able to cherry pick talent before the drafts...

[praha 11,236]

I think Whelan is done as well. He'll retire at the end of this year.

[jumbo returns 6,740]

Na you're right JR, just would have been interesting to see some facts. I agree with you though that they failed to develop those two players but at the same time were they actually as good as the position they were drafted???

Yea and I think the coyness is where some change might need to take place... along the lines of opening up and looking at say a Hawthorn and see they have a bucket load of talent.. can we as a club convince them we have one player/draft pick that will get them over the top for a Boyle or a Williams who seem to be expendable but would help us out.. Or a Geelong, how many excess players do they have that we might be able to try and target that would add some value? Would they add any value? Would it be better for us to keep all our draft picks/players (I doubt we'd get one offer for any of our players) and build through the draft over 3 years near the bottom?

Hmmmm - Geelong have an excess? Dunno...it seems that Brent Moloney was expendable because he wasn't getting a game with the ones. Brent's problem is a lack of awareness, a lack of the footy smarts, that innate, intangible that cannot be coached. King and Playfair at the Saints, but I don't rate them - just as Rhino said, players that are NQR.

Hawks had a Croad they could throw up for trade who also had some MEDIA value - a player our club does not have. I agree with your last sentence. We need to prepare for some suffering to pick up some draft because our list is not a quick fix. I think to try and recruit other fringe players is fraught with danger. The thinking has to be so far left that it would make a Socialist Party convention look like a Young Libs BBQ.

Just for the record, do you think Craig Cameron was that good?

[drdrake 3,163]

When I saw the heading I was thinking 2000 turnovers in 2 years, that wouldn't be far from the truth either.

We forget quickly that our club also suffered from salery cap breaches and lost picks for a couple of years. They would be late 20's now and could have been the difference that stopped us winning a flag.

We are also our own worst enemy we would finish 5-8 three years in a row meaning with priority picks oour first pick wasn't until about 11-13. Our early picks that we use on KPP haven't worked out and the two at 192+ Bate and Dunn are more midfielders than KP.

At the moment we don't have the skill to compete and we desperately need a Key Young key forward. Go after Robbie Warnock he will be shitty at Freo for not playing him and Hansen from the Eagles. Use No1 pick for the best player in the draft be it Rich, Natanui, Hurley or someone else. Use Pick 17 and 18 to draft further KPP, I think we have enough young midfielders coming through. Give nothing for Warnock get him in the PSS give second round pick for Hansen

[Cards13 9,117]

Hmmmm - Geelong have an excess? Dunno...it seems that Brent Moloney was expendable because he wasn't getting a game with the ones. Brent's problem is a lack of awareness, a lack of the footy smarts, that innate, intangible that cannot be coached. King and Playfair at the Saints, but I don't rate them - just as Rhino said, players that are NQR.

Hawks had a Croad they could throw up for trade who also had some MEDIA value - a player our club does not have. I agree with your last sentence. We need to prepare for some suffering to pick up some draft because our list is not a quick fix. I think to try and recruit other fringe players is fraught with danger. The thinking has to be so far left that it would make a Socialist Party convention look like a Young Libs BBQ.

Just for the record, do you think Craig Cameron was that good?

I'd be thinking more along the lines of a Primsall/Byrnes who can't quite get in the 1's yet are supposed to be players of some value. It is not easy to break into that side. Same at Hawks with the forward line excess. We do not seem to have many options and a Williams or a Boyle would be a ready made solution depending on the draft pick they want.

Fev is up for contract, Blues offering 1 year deal, he wants long term for potentially his final contract....

I also read with interest todays paper with the draft concessions the QLD and NSw teams are going to potentially get... Time to look at trades now for those drafts. Lets think outside of the square.

I wrote a piece on big footy at the start of the year and I think the heading was MFC drafting = terrible, so no. I grabbed a heap of facts from Footywire on every draft we've had. We ave the 3rd least number of games per player drafted. His pointy end of drafts have been terrible. The late round and rookie selections have been great for us over the years.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I don't know why people keep saying Robbo and Whelan are retiring at years end... They're 28!!! Both could conceivably play for another 3 years. Maybe longer for Robbo.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Robbo is 30 this year.. and still contracted for next year.

[jacey 333]

Use Pick 17 and 18 to draft further KPP, I think we have enough young midfielders coming through. Give nothing for Warnock get him in the PSS give second round pick for Hansen

Why the hell do people rate Ashley Hansen. He's a slightly more polished Brad Miller type of player.

With no Judd and Cousins and Kerr heavily tagged, Hansen has barely sniffed the leather.

Quetin Lynch and Ashley Hansen are two of the luckiest players in the AFL as others have made them look good.

Now their go-to-man is a 3 gamer ben mckinley. a 6'0. Not the two suppposedly KPP.

I'll be filthy if we chased Hansen, let alone give weagles a second round draft pick.

[Cards13 9,117]

Why the hell do people rate Ashley Hansen. He's a slightly more polished Brad Miller type of player.

With no Judd and Cousins and Kerr heavily tagged, Hansen has barely sniffed the leather.

Quetin Lynch and Ashley Hansen are two of the luckiest players in the AFL as others have made them look good.

Now their go-to-man is a 3 gamer ben mckinley. a 6'0. Not the two suppposedly KPP.

I'll be filthy if we chased Hansen, let alone give weagles a second round draft pick.

I thought he might have been better than that but his best game was 21 possies, he has massive hamstring issues. He can't get on the park to prove his potential. He was drafted in 2001 and has played 58 games at 25 yrs of age.... I don't get it either.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I don't know why people keep saying Robbo and Whelan are retiring at years end... They're 28!!! Both could conceivably play for another 3 years. Maybe longer for Robbo.

Whelan physically cant get on the track consistently and has diminished as a footballer. I dont whether I would give him another contract.

Robbo has had a bad knee for the past two seasons and is struggling with the demands of the modern game.

Regardless Robbo has another year on his contract and he is 30 this year in November.

[beelzebub 23,313]

Whelan physically cant get on the track consistently and has diminished as a footballer. I dont whether I would give him another contract.

tend to agree. Wheels better days seem to be past him. Shame..but that's what is !!

[beelzebub 23,313]

addendum..

if you going to build a TEAM.. yo want to get some mileage from them..as a team. Not a lot of point either persevering with the near/ or at 30 crowd !! Limited future, limited returns.

[Dee*ceiving 1,674]

I think Whelan will go round again

[Weedster 174]

tend to agree. Wheels better days seem to be past him. Shame..but that's what is !!

Really thought he was exposed last week though he wasn't alone

[Hannabal 4]

Whelan is one of the more important players in our team. If he can play good football for the remainder of the year and dispel concerns over his recent injuries he'd be one of the first I'd be signing up.

[beelzebub 23,313]

H.. if he got some real form back.. id find the pen myself.. But he just seems a couple of paces off and not nearly as sharp. Hope he can recover fully from injury as he can play vrey well. I personally havent seen it this year...could be my eyes though !!

[ickey_11 145]

Interestingly, I read recently that Mark Thompson is already developing the next generation of Cats, despite the premiership window being open. That's the trick isn't it, to manage your list for the 'now' and the future.

Thompson has too; because with players like Bartell, G Ablett, T Hawkins and Selwood he is going to have to turn over the next level of players to keep under the cap. Don't forget that this club has already let go King and Playfair (I am not saying that this is a mistake, but Geelong would have preferred to keep them for depth alone). Also they will get high draft picks where elite players are harder to find. Each team really has only a 2-4 year window to win a premiership before they fall back because of the cap and draft. It happened to Essendon after 1998-2000, Brisbane after 2001-2004, Collingwood after 2001-2002 and it is happening to WCE now.

The silver lining for Melbourne is that they have some good kids younger players through (Bates, Dunn, Jones, McLean etc.) some low picks coming up and with room to move under the cap to trade some decent experience in. I can see Melbourne pushing the top four in early next decade. I believe the worst aspect is to be middle of the road year in and out like RIchmond were.