58 minutes ago, Macca said:

So if we are trying to move the ball quickly, then whatever we are trying to do is obviously not working

Who has said anything about "quickly". The word they've used is "differently". We are trying to chip the ball around like Hawthorn in their 3peat era and then take a quick kick to a leading forward once we have other teams chasing our tail. This relies on:

1. Forwards who know how to lead deep (ours don't, aside from Turner who has other issues)

2. Midfielders who are uber fit and can run two ways - most teams aren't running more than one or two big bulls so they can have more dash, and we have four or five

3. Making the best decision by foot consistently

4. Maintaining a decent set up in case we give the ball away and get torched on the rebound

None of this is working right now. We are able to chip it around to the upper part of the D50, and then look down the line or burn a poor kick through the corridor.

A mitigating circumstance here is that our best kicks are missing (McVee, Windsor off HB, Kozzy, now Lindsay). Them being back would ideally see this improve. The reality of the situation is that we're now relying on Bowey and Salem to execute. Salem is actually a really poor field kick when he has to hit a target 20+ metres away. Bowey is nominally better, but his footy IQ is really low IMO and he struggles to adapt when the option he wants isn't there or when he's under pressure.

Neither of them seem to have a clue about how to change the angle, which is what leads to quick breaks. May and McDonald are much better at this, but they're old now and not as reliable.

We haven't built a list of quality kicks like the Hawks used to have either.

Even with those better kicks back, we will still encounter the same issues forward of the D50.

So yes, its on the coach and list management.

Edited Saturday at 12:453 days by Pirlo

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Why is he talking about premiership windows and flags? Their sole focus should be winning next Friday, this is exactly what I was talking about earlier. Do the little things right and the big things will look after themselves, the club still has this culture problem where we think we have an entitlement to success instead of working hard for it.

They sound like [censored] when they trot out this stuff.

That pretty much sums up the attitude since the flag.

This has been our way since, where the mantra was "now we need to win one on the G for our fans".

Like this was just gonna happen.

They got too far ahead of themselves from then and haven't reigned their focus back to the immediate since.

I know it's boring but any club or player that doesn't truly believe in "one week at a time" is most likely going to get their butt handed to them.

Talk is all we do now.

This senior groups' opportunity to get back to a GF on the G may well have passed them by. At least in its present iteration.

If wishes were horses...

24 minutes ago, Pirlo said:

Who has said anything about "quickly". The word they've used is "differently". We are trying to chip the ball around like Hawthorn in their 3peat era and then take a quick kick to a leading forward once we have other teams chasing our tail. This relies on:

1. Forwards who know how to lead deep (ours don't, aside from Turner who has other issues)

2. Midfielders who are uber fit and can run two ways - most teams aren't running more than one or two big bulls so they can have more dash, and we have four or five

3. Making the best decision by foot consistently

4. Maintaining a decent set up in case we give the ball away and get torched on the rebound

None of this is working right now. We are able to chip it around to the upper part of the D50, and then look down the line or burn a poor kick through the corridor.

A mitigating circumstance here is that our best kicks are missing (McVee, Windsor off HB, Kozzy, now Lindsay). Them being back would ideally see this improve. The reality of the situation is that we're now relying on Bowey and Salem to execute. Salem is actually a really poor field kick when he has to hit a target 20+ metres away. Bowey is nominally better, but his footy IQ is really low IMO and he struggles to adapt when the option he wants isn't there or when he's under pressure.

Neither of them seem to have a clue about how to change the angle, which is what leads to quick breaks. May and McDonald are much better at this, but they're old now and not as reliable.

We haven't built a list of quality kicks like the Hawks used to have either.

Even with those better kicks back, we will still encounter the same issues forward of the D50.

So yes, its on the coach and list management.

I interpret playing differently to be playing quickly as moving the ball slowly just lends itself to getting pushed wide and indirect

Players stopping & propping leads to crowded forward lines as does attacking slowly via the boundary line ... it's like we are frightened to use the corridor

So direct football has to be quick otherwise it can't work

And the better teams are moving the ball quickly and in a more direct manner (which is not a new thing, btw)

We are treacle-slow so if we are not at least trying to move the ball quickly and in a more direct manner, we should be

We've got issues all over the ground now ... we have no real pace or rebound out of our backline, our forwards can't win their own ball and generally lack talent ... and the mids just continue to bomb it long without any thought

And now we're getting done at what were formally strengths ... clearances & contested ball

Right now, our game plan is a dog's breakfast

I reckon coming off a tumultuous off season has taken it's toll. It's like we are playing with an every-man-for-himself type attitude. Hard to coach under those circumstances

Players make coaches but players can also destroy a coach

Petracca wanting out, Oliver going off the rails and the constant speculation with Kozzie can create a selfish environment within the playing group

Bottom line is the players aren't playing for each other and we are not playing as a team

Edited Saturday at 13:433 days by Macca

4 hours ago, Redleg said:

So who is responsible for basic skill errors like our inability to pass, handball, mark, tackle and kick for goal?

We are now terrible at all of the above.

We are an error riddled team, apparently devoid of any confidence in the game plan, if they even know what it is and each other.

There has to be something wrong somewhere.

Too much soccer, not enough goal kicking practice and players slow of mind and leg speed. A lot of Shizzen recruiting thrown in for good measure! And have I mentioned that some players feelings would be hurt if dropped?

7 hours ago, whatwhat say what said:

the biggest issue with the slow ball movement play is that it allows teams to set up defensively, and when we - inevitably - turn it over, they're able to hit us on the counter with speed and quick ball movement

the style of play we are trying to execute doesn't work with our current team make-up

i'm not sure if it's a fitness issue per se, but it's certainly a team make-up and game plan one

For sure, I was watching the huge difference in ball movement between ourselves and GC.

Turnover in our forward line meant instant running in packs into attack by GC

When we got control on our half back line through marks etc, we would always just stop, prop and then kick over the mark to a bunch of players not really moving at all.

We looked like witches hats on the few long views I could see via the TV when we had possession.

Our lack of movement and hard running in waves must have looked horrific for those at the game.

I expected us to be fairly ordinary this year, so I'm not totally surprised by what we've dished up so far.

What I didn't expect was the lack of passion, the lack of respect and the lack of care for each other. We have so many players who just dispose of the footy without thinking, leaving their teammates to get crunched or to compete outnumbered. We're totally bereft of skill, fitness and confidence.

Goodwin has clearly lost the players and the plot, and needs to do the honourable thing and resign. Lamb should join him.

10 hours ago, Superunknown said:

  11 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

No, I’m not, and boy do I love the Pies!!!oneoneone1111

Not what the edit of prior posts is for but very funny and not true😉

11 hours ago, layzie said:

I can't cop this stealing a flag business. Things did line up for us but we were clearly the best team in 21.

Who cares if a side does ‘steal’ a flag, it’s irrelevant. All that matters is one side wins the grand final each year and we did it in 2021.

Do we think the dogs care that their 2016 flag was from 7th, had a good run with umpires and got helped by the first year of pre finale bye. I bet their fans Couldn’t give a toss

We are too slow around the ball , that seems the main problem to me.

We have three bulls in there that can jump on the ball , but the problem is their opposing midfields are getting to it and moving it faster.

We need Kozzie in there badly and I would even try Windsor in there.

I would also play May at full forward for the rest of the year , TMac can hold down full back.

Desperate time call for desperate measures.

I’d rather see us try something different than watch us get belted every week.

1 hour ago, poita said:

I expected us to be fairly ordinary this year, so I'm not totally surprised by what we've dished up so far.

What I didn't expect was the lack of passion, the lack of respect and the lack of care for each other. We have so many players who just dispose of the footy without thinking, leaving their teammates to get crunched or to compete outnumbered. We're totally bereft of skill, fitness and confidence.

Goodwin has clearly lost the players and the plot, and needs to do the honourable thing and resign. Lamb should join him.

Agree I had us around 12-14 with an outside chance of 8 being positive.

Lack of passion is just terrible in two counts , the obvious being you need passion to win and secondarily these boys are paid more than the prime minister . You are paid to play to the best of your ability

13 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

We are too slow around the ball , that seems the main problem to me.

We have three bulls in there that can jump on the ball , but the problem is their opposing midfields are getting to it and moving it faster.

We need Kozzie in there badly and I would even try Windsor in there.

I would also play May at full forward for the rest of the year , TMac can hold down full back.

Desperate time call for desperate measures.

I’d rather see us try something different than watch us get belted every week.

Funnily enough yesterday we reverted back to Petty at FF.

Those were the days.

9 hours ago, Pirlo said:

Who has said anything about "quickly". The word they've used is "differently". We are trying to chip the ball around like Hawthorn in their 3peat era and then take a quick kick to a leading forward once we have other teams chasing our tail. This relies on:

1. Forwards who know how to lead deep (ours don't, aside from Turner who has other issues)

2. Midfielders who are uber fit and can run two ways - most teams aren't running more than one or two big bulls so they can have more dash, and we have four or five

3. Making the best decision by foot consistently

4. Maintaining a decent set up in case we give the ball away and get torched on the rebound

None of this is working right now. We are able to chip it around to the upper part of the D50, and then look down the line or burn a poor kick through the corridor.

A mitigating circumstance here is that our best kicks are missing (McVee, Windsor off HB, Kozzy, now Lindsay). Them being back would ideally see this improve. The reality of the situation is that we're now relying on Bowey and Salem to execute. Salem is actually a really poor field kick when he has to hit a target 20+ metres away. Bowey is nominally better, but his footy IQ is really low IMO and he struggles to adapt when the option he wants isn't there or when he's under pressure.

Neither of them seem to have a clue about how to change the angle, which is what leads to quick breaks. May and McDonald are much better at this, but they're old now and not as reliable.

We haven't built a list of quality kicks like the Hawks used to have either.

Even with those better kicks back, we will still encounter the same issues forward of the D50.

So yes, its on the coach and list management.

Nailed it. This is perfect for any of the AFL talk fest shows to dissect. It’s clear to the fans. Unfortunately doesn’t seem clear to Simon and co. Slow and steady and then turnover footy is a horror show.

We can improve with better ball use and run, but the complete loss of winning contested footy and clearance work (our previous number 1 strength) is a huge concern. Being outworked, outrun and outbodied.

2 hours ago, Brownie said:

Our lack of movement and hard running in waves must have looked horrific for those at the game.

It did.

I agree with those who have criticized our flat-footed, chip-it-around tactic. In pre-season training, the emphasis was on short kicks and changing angles coming out of defence, but at SPEED! There was lots of movement to provide the ball carrier with options. Everyone was moving! This is not what we are seeing on game day! To put it simply, the players aren't executing the plan.

One thing that struck me late last night. Who would be the next in line as captain and vice captain?

Viney is average, Lever makes too many errors and is always injured. Trac is not a leader and too emotional. JVR wants to be a leader but is playing with oven mits on. We have no young onfield leaders coming through and our current ones are not leading and look finished.

Edited Saturday at 22:152 days by SPC

1 minute ago, waynewussell said:

I agree with those who have criticized our flat-footed, chip-it-around tactic. In pre-season training, the emphasis was on short kicks and changing angles coming out of defence, but at SPEED! There was lots of movement to provide the ball carrier with options. Everyone was moving! This is not what we are seeing on game day! To put it simply, the players aren't executing the plan.

We don’t have foot skills to execute such a plan.

1 minute ago, SPC said:

One thing that struck me late last night. Who would be the next in line as captain and vice captain?

Viney is average, Lever makes too many errors and is always injured. Trac is not a leader and too emotional. JVR wants to be a leader but is playing with oven mits on. We have no young onfield leaders coming through and our current ones are not leading and look finished.

Lever was the obvious choice before this season.

If we think he is not right, maybe someone younger like Rivers?

Just now, ElDiablo14 said:

Lever was the obvious choice before this season.

If we think he is not right, maybe someone younger like Rivers?

He would need to get his own game in order. Very poor by hand and foot lately a trend that has plagued him the last 12 months. It has been a theme when the pressure is on, the Freo Alice Springs game was another howler.

I think one of our biggest issues is we’ve lost our 3 most critical players for ball movement all at once: see if things improve when Pickett, Windsor and McVee return. Things look pretty bleak at the moment and sitting there yesterday was a reminder of the bad old days, but I’m still hopeful we can see a turn in form as the year progresses. The list isn’t anywhere near 2012 levels of woefulness.

Something is wrong.

Langdon, Rivers, Fritta, Howes and JVR as examples, are playing horribly.

JVR dropped 3 chest marks yesterday. Fritta dropped about 3 and missed 3 shots and his tackling is a joke.

Langdon is turning over the ball every possession, as is Rivers and Howes is panicking and giving it away too often.

What is causing this?

We know Viney has poor disposal, but now Oliver and Tracc are turning it over regularly.

Max couldn't give a 3 metre handball yesterday under no pressure, that would have given us a certain goal.

I repeat, something is wrong, players don't lose all their skill overnight.

6 minutes ago, sisso said:

I think one of our biggest issues is we’ve lost our 3 most critical players for ball movement all at once: see if things improve when Pickett, Windsor and McVee return. Things look pretty bleak at the moment and sitting there yesterday was a reminder of the bad old days, but I’m still hopeful we can see a turn in form as the year progresses. The list isn’t anywhere near 2012 levels of woefulness.

That's the puzzling thing, we don't have a [censored] list.

Yes our injuries have killed us. The Roos and Suns had 1-2 out each, while we were without our quickest and best ball users and then we lose another XL in the first few minutes.

We may improve when these guys return, but if not, we are ending up near the bottom and without our first pick.

12 minutes ago, SPC said:

One thing that struck me late last night. Who would be the next in line as captain and vice captain?

Viney is average, Lever makes too many errors and is always injured. Trac is not a leader and too emotional. JVR wants to be a leader but is playing with oven mits on. We have no young onfield leaders coming through and our current ones are not leading and look finished.

It would have been Brayshaw. Max for a few more years with less responsibility. Lever is a leader

10 hours ago, Redleg said:

So who is responsible for basic skill errors like our inability to pass, handball, mark, tackle and kick for goal?

We are now terrible at all of the above.

We recently signed a player for a further four years who can't, and has never been able to, handball. His kicking is well below average as well. He's beloved on this site and has finished top 10 in the B&F multiple times.

As a club we don't tolerate awful disposal. We embrace it.

4 minutes ago, The Taciturn Demon said:

We recently signed a player for a further four years who can't, and has never been able to, handball. His kicking is well below average as well. He's beloved on this site and has finished top 10 in the B&F multiple times.

As a club we don't tolerate awful disposal. We embrace it.

He is great in other areas that we also need and we can carry one poor user of the ball.

The problem is he has about 15 mates with the same level of disposal skill.

Trav was okay but the stars need to work harder. Fritsch is a liability though, he messed up our own a number of times and did not do what he gets paid to do.

I love the guy when he’s good but he’s stunk it up all season surely he has to get dropped to send a message. I don’t care if the cupboard is bare, it’s not that bare, he was shocking and he needs a stint in VFL to straighten up and fly right. He cost us a lot yesterday. Wasn’t the only one but he of all of them is better than that.