40 minutes ago, binman said:

Never was that more evident than in the cracking GWS Swans game.

That game highlighted that whilst a good turnover, transition game get you to finals (and therefore silky skills like say Guldens'), come finals you still.heed the hard at it bulls like heeney.

The swans won that game because of their intensity and pressure in the second half, not their much vaunted skill.

I totally agree with this overview however the skills of their extractors particularly Heeney and Warner is a real point of difference to ours. 
Goal kicking onballers are becoming a significant point of difference the top teams and we don’t  have them. Petracca to a lesser extent. 

24 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Oliver has been missing all year and Cameron has pretty much been given the best defender since he was 19. 

Oliver has struggled with the tag all year, and please don't give me the injury excuse.

Oliver's last two years has been poor. That's a combination of his own discretion due to his off field behaviour and [censored] poor preparation and then not listening to the medicos around managing his hammy issues.

We're paying this guy a ridiculous salary and so far he hasn't performed remotely close to that expectation. 

If you do a poll to neutral supporters who'd they take out of Cameron or Oliver I can guarantee 98% of the public would take Cameron.

He is a genuine superstar of the game and it's ridiculous how he's still performing at an elite level at 31 years of age. That comes down to being the ultimate professional and elite preparer every single year. 

 

98% of the public or the coaches association. I know which horse I'm backing, anyway, Hogan or Cameron, who are you taking? Let's keep it to a like for like conversation. Couldn't agree more than Oliver needs a big '25. And yes when you are an elite handballer and your thumb is buggered, injury makes a huge bloody difference. So I will continue to parse the details between legitimate injury and his off field behaviour. I don't care if you like it or not.

1 hour ago, demon3165 said:

He is not elite in late 21 he started becoming an outside player and Viney was part of that change when he stopped trying to be a rugby player and just dished the ball off and Oliver was the better for it.

Keep digging Champ.

2 hours ago, demon3165 said:

He is not elite in late 21 he started becoming an outside player and Viney was part of that change when he stopped trying to be a rugby player and just dished the ball off and Oliver was the better for it.

What a bizarre comment. Not elite? He was ranked 2nd in Player Rating in 2021 and won the coaches vote. He was ranked #1 in Contested Possessions. Not bad for an "Outside player". Viney was ranked #36.

2 hours ago, Its Time for Another said:

I totally agree with this overview however the skills of their extractors particularly Heeney and Warner is a real point of difference to ours. 
Goal kicking onballers are becoming a significant point of difference the top teams and we don’t  have them. Petracca to a lesser extent. 

Yep, agree.

I didn't mean to say that skill becomes unimportant. 

My point was less about skill than game style.

it wasnt their fast transition off half back using laser kicks that won them the game (the way say it did the hawks in a much lower pressure game) it was their attack on the ball.

But as you say their skill was a huge factor.

The handball from papley was genius, and arguably won them the game. 

Heeneys resulting goal was clutch, as was the one he kicked after his one handed mark.

Warner was also brilliant.

Players with the best skills can execute better under pressure than those with average skills, and I agree it's an area we need to improve.

I reckon Windsor might become our Warner, and I have high hopes fir kolt. Two hard at players with good skills.

Hopefully our pick 5 gives us one more.

Edited September 8, 20241 yr by binman

3 minutes ago, djr said:

What a bizarre comment. Not elite? He was ranked 2nd in Player Rating in 2021 and won the coaches vote. He was ranked #1 in Contested Possessions. Not bad for an "Outside player". Viney was ranked #36.

Elite is someone who is good at all facets of the game, example of an elite melbourne player Robert Flower, and he ain't no SOG..Son of God.

1 hour ago, Roost it far said:

Keep digging Champ.

Yeah CHAMP keep dreaming.

On 05/09/2024 at 21:24, ANG13 said:

Thanks for sharing, always appreciate your information. My automatic response to this is he will be somewhere else next year, I would imagine there would be a club willing to give up something for him. 
 

I will be gutted if he goes but at the same time depending on how the trade may look I will understand it. 

No way trade Oliver without knowing how Tracc will come back post injury... 

43 minutes ago, demon3165 said:

Elite is someone who is good at all facets of the game, example of an elite melbourne player Robert Flower, and he ain't no SOG..Son of God.

Oh dear.

2 hours ago, DEE fence said:

98% of the public or the coaches association. I know which horse I'm backing, anyway, Hogan or Cameron, who are you taking? Let's keep it to a like for like conversation. Couldn't agree more than Oliver needs a big '25. And yes when you are an elite handballer and your thumb is buggered, injury makes a huge bloody difference. So I will continue to parse the details between legitimate injury and his off field behaviour. I don't care if you like it or not.

When has Cameron featured in the coaches votes compared to Clarry. ? He is good no doubt but why is this turning into a contest between him and Clarry? Both are such valuable players.

4 hours ago, binman said:

silky skills like say Guldens'

I was watching Gulden a few weeks back when he had to play a bit more of an inside mid role in a pressure game.

For someone who is one of the great kicks in the game currently, he continually turned the ball over.

I think this is where the inside role is often not properly understood by many.

5 hours ago, demon3165 said:

Marcus Bontempelli has kicked 232 in 11 seasons even Josh Dacios has kick more goals than Oliver. 

Ok, doesn't change my statement.  Oliver certainly  has the ability to kick more goals. Surprised he hasn't.

5 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Thanks. 56% was close to what i thought it would be, If he could improve 3-4% it would be a huge difference in games

Huge? A 4% improvement is just one kick or handball in a 25-disposal game.

Over his career Clayton Oliver is rated elite for Disposals (28.5), Handballs (16.9), Tackles (5.8) and Total Clearances (6.6). He is very good for Kicks (11.5), probably because as an inside mid who wins a lot of clearances he handballs more.

If you've had him in your AFL Fantasy, he's been elite at that too, with an average of 100.5.

10 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Huge? A 4% improvement is just one kick or handball in a 25-disposal game.

I'm 36% confused.

12 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Huge? A 4% improvement is just one kick or handball in a 25-disposal game.

An extra 1-2 goals…

Okay, if your disposal efficiency is 50% and you bump it up to 54%, that's two better kicks or handballs in a 25-disposal game.

2 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

An extra 1-2 goals…

Possibly for the whole team, but not just one player.

2 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Possibly for the whole team, but not just one player.

4 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Possibly for the whole team, but not just one player.

Challenge Him…

he has elite talent 

10 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Challenge Him…

he has elite talent 

yes for sure but will he produce it

2 hours ago, Bobby McKenzie said:

When has Cameron featured in the coaches votes compared to Clarry. ? He is good no doubt but why is this turning into a contest between him and Clarry? Both are such valuable players.

They are, and also different from each other - I don't understand either was responding to a post that I thought undervalued Clarrie. To me the coaches votes are a fair indicator of value by people who actually do know what they are on about. 

19 hours ago, binman said:

Yep, agree.

I didn't mean to say that skill becomes unimportant. 

My point was less about skill than game style.

it wasnt their fast transition off half back using laser kicks that won them the game (the way say it did the hawks in a much lower pressure game) it was their attack on the ball.

But as you say their skill was a huge factor.

The handball from papley was genius, and arguably won them the game. 

Heeneys resulting goal was clutch, as was the one he kicked after his one handed mark.

Warner was also brilliant.

Players with the best skills can execute better under pressure than those with average skills, and I agree it's an area we need to improve.

I reckon Windsor might become our Warner, and I have high hopes fir kolt. Two hard at players with good skills.

Hopefully our pick 5 gives us one more.

I'm hoping McVee will be another one to add to that mix.

You can't make a player like Windsor they're born that way. What an outstanding pick by the Guru, Mr Taylor. Wasn't in the top 10 discussion a month before the draft. His skill and more importantly his decision making and vision is very very special.

I don't know if you agree @binman but if you look at it so often it's a teams top 3-6 players who do the critical damage. Everyone else is important for executing their roles but that echelon of players in every team seem to be critical. Not entirely different to junior footy. 

By the way I wasn't commenting on anything you said or didn't say about skill. That was just a separate observation of mine.  

I will add on a slightly different note that I got to go to the game. It was unbelievable. The atmosphere right from the first bounce was like nothing I've ever experienced before at the SCG.  The noise was unbelievable. Heeney said the same thing after the game. 

Edited September 9, 20241 yr by Its Time for Another

What is happening about Clarry’s hand operation?

7 minutes ago, Dingo said:

What is happening about Clarry’s hand operation?

I think it’s been done