Season 2024 Over for Clayton Oliver

[KozzyCan 674]

1 minute ago, djr said:

So in your alternative universe, it's more important that no one wins the ball at centre bounces but waits for the turnover. Imagine both teams adopting this strategy. Everyone will be standing around and looking at each other.

Why is it all or nothing? Yes you need ball winners but I'm saying the balance has shifted from when they were 90% of why teams won games. For a while footy used to live in contest and repeat stoppages so having those guys was gold, it was a war of attrition. These days teams that can't move the ball properly are being left behind.

[demon3165 2,630]

4 minutes ago, djr said:

So in your alternative universe, it's more important that no one wins the ball at centre bounces but waits for the turnover. Imagine both teams adopting this strategy. Everyone will be standing around and looking at each other.

That's not what he is saying, the style of gameplan in 21 was contest to contest it is not played that way now it's an open style and we got slaughtered at times doing that.

[KozzyCan 674]

2 minutes ago, binman said:

Never was that more evident than in the cracking GWS Swans game.

That game highlighted that whilst a good turnover, transition game get you to finals (and therefore silky skills like say Guldens'), come finals you still.heed the hard at it bulls like heeney.

The swans won that game because of their intensity and pressure in the second half, not their much vaunted skill.

I reckon their skills helped!

 

4 minutes ago, Neil Crompton said:

Ok then, Doesn’t someone have to “win it (the ball) at the turnover” before you can then “move the ball”?

We're talking about Oliver here.

[djr 1,401]

2 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

Why is it all or nothing? Yes you need ball winners but I'm saying the balance has shifted from when they were 90% of why teams won games. For a while footy used to live in contest and repeat stoppages so having those guys was gold, it was a war of attrition. These days teams that can't move the ball properly are being left behind.

I agree. Just playing with you. Inside bulls have lost their lustre mainly because the game today is about creating space to run and, as you say, move the ball. Port Adelaide possess the modern game elite midfielders who can extract the ball out of centre and into space. That said, they were terrible the other night. Hawthorn are doing it well, and teams are struggling to lock down their skilled run and carry. Sydney are the same.

[dazzledavey36 53,676]

54 minutes ago, DEE fence said:

The bit where I said brilliant one day didn't register? up until recently Oliver has been consistent like no other, that is the only thing I am comparing between him and Jezza. Otherwise this is an apples and oranges argument. And as much as Jezza is great and would have happily had him in my team I've seen him go missing or get the yips, he hasn't has had much work put into him, as the opposition has put into Clarry.  

The other thing that Clayton was doing from day one (and I think the only thing I ever agreed with PF about) is putting his team mates into space creating the scoring chains from turnovers (you know that's hard to do right?), I really hope Daicos has a good career he is a jet, and seems like a really decent kid. I just hope he is as durable as Clarry, because he has alot of attention coming his way and I hope he copes with it as well as Clarry has. I couldn't give a rat's freckle how many goals Clarry kicks, would be nice if he kicked more but not why he is in the team.

 

 

 

Oliver has been missing all year and Cameron has pretty much been given the best defender since he was 19. 

Oliver has struggled with the tag all year, and please don't give me the injury excuse.

Oliver's last two years has been poor. That's a combination of his own discretion due to his off field behaviour and [censored] poor preparation and then not listening to the medicos around managing his hammy issues.

We're paying this guy a ridiculous salary and so far he hasn't performed remotely close to that expectation. 

If you do a poll to neutral supporters who'd they take out of Cameron or Oliver I can guarantee 98% of the public would take Cameron.

He is a genuine superstar of the game and it's ridiculous how he's still performing at an elite level at 31 years of age. That comes down to being the ultimate professional and elite preparer every single year. 

 

[picket fence 16,855]

1 hour ago, Demon17 said:

Any club that does deep due diligence on Clayton will pass on a trade.

He'll be staying with us as a consequence. 

We have to help improve for him to be of value in 2025.

What does that mean, Due Dilligence? You mean whats known or what??

[Its Time for Another 4,113]

40 minutes ago, binman said:

Never was that more evident than in the cracking GWS Swans game.

That game highlighted that whilst a good turnover, transition game get you to finals (and therefore silky skills like say Guldens'), come finals you still.heed the hard at it bulls like heeney.

The swans won that game because of their intensity and pressure in the second half, not their much vaunted skill.

I totally agree with this overview however the skills of their extractors particularly Heeney and Warner is a real point of difference to ours. 
Goal kicking onballers are becoming a significant point of difference the top teams and we don’t  have them. Petracca to a lesser extent. 

[DEE fence 4,978]

24 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Oliver has been missing all year and Cameron has pretty much been given the best defender since he was 19. 

Oliver has struggled with the tag all year, and please don't give me the injury excuse.

Oliver's last two years has been poor. That's a combination of his own discretion due to his off field behaviour and [censored] poor preparation and then not listening to the medicos around managing his hammy issues.

We're paying this guy a ridiculous salary and so far he hasn't performed remotely close to that expectation. 

If you do a poll to neutral supporters who'd they take out of Cameron or Oliver I can guarantee 98% of the public would take Cameron.

He is a genuine superstar of the game and it's ridiculous how he's still performing at an elite level at 31 years of age. That comes down to being the ultimate professional and elite preparer every single year. 

 

98% of the public or the coaches association. I know which horse I'm backing, anyway, Hogan or Cameron, who are you taking? Let's keep it to a like for like conversation. Couldn't agree more than Oliver needs a big '25. And yes when you are an elite handballer and your thumb is buggered, injury makes a huge bloody difference. So I will continue to parse the details between legitimate injury and his off field behaviour. I don't care if you like it or not.

[Roost it far 8,018]

1 hour ago, demon3165 said:

He is not elite in late 21 he started becoming an outside player and Viney was part of that change when he stopped trying to be a rugby player and just dished the ball off and Oliver was the better for it.

Keep digging Champ.

[djr 1,401]

2 hours ago, demon3165 said:

He is not elite in late 21 he started becoming an outside player and Viney was part of that change when he stopped trying to be a rugby player and just dished the ball off and Oliver was the better for it.

What a bizarre comment. Not elite? He was ranked 2nd in Player Rating in 2021 and won the coaches vote. He was ranked #1 in Contested Possessions. Not bad for an "Outside player". Viney was ranked #36.

[binman 42,262]

2 hours ago, Its Time for Another said:

I totally agree with this overview however the skills of their extractors particularly Heeney and Warner is a real point of difference to ours. 
Goal kicking onballers are becoming a significant point of difference the top teams and we don’t  have them. Petracca to a lesser extent. 

Yep, agree.

I didn't mean to say that skill becomes unimportant. 

My point was less about skill than game style.

it wasnt their fast transition off half back using laser kicks that won them the game (the way say it did the hawks in a much lower pressure game) it was their attack on the ball.

But as you say their skill was a huge factor.

The handball from papley was genius, and arguably won them the game. 

Heeneys resulting goal was clutch, as was the one he kicked after his one handed mark.

Warner was also brilliant.

Players with the best skills can execute better under pressure than those with average skills, and I agree it's an area we need to improve.

I reckon Windsor might become our Warner, and I have high hopes fir kolt. Two hard at players with good skills.

Hopefully our pick 5 gives us one more.

Edited September 8 by binman

[demon3165 2,630]

3 minutes ago, djr said:

What a bizarre comment. Not elite? He was ranked 2nd in Player Rating in 2021 and won the coaches vote. He was ranked #1 in Contested Possessions. Not bad for an "Outside player". Viney was ranked #36.

Elite is someone who is good at all facets of the game, example of an elite melbourne player Robert Flower, and he ain't no SOG..Son of God.

[demon3165 2,630]

1 hour ago, Roost it far said:

Keep digging Champ.

Yeah CHAMP keep dreaming.

[Rednblueriseing 812]

On 05/09/2024 at 21:24, ANG13 said:

Thanks for sharing, always appreciate your information. My automatic response to this is he will be somewhere else next year, I would imagine there would be a club willing to give up something for him. 
 

I will be gutted if he goes but at the same time depending on how the trade may look I will understand it. 

No way trade Oliver without knowing how Tracc will come back post injury... 

[djr 1,401]

43 minutes ago, demon3165 said:

Elite is someone who is good at all facets of the game, example of an elite melbourne player Robert Flower, and he ain't no SOG..Son of God.

Oh dear.

[Bobby McKenzie 2,376]

2 hours ago, DEE fence said:

98% of the public or the coaches association. I know which horse I'm backing, anyway, Hogan or Cameron, who are you taking? Let's keep it to a like for like conversation. Couldn't agree more than Oliver needs a big '25. And yes when you are an elite handballer and your thumb is buggered, injury makes a huge bloody difference. So I will continue to parse the details between legitimate injury and his off field behaviour. I don't care if you like it or not.

When has Cameron featured in the coaches votes compared to Clarry. ? He is good no doubt but why is this turning into a contest between him and Clarry? Both are such valuable players.

[rjay 24,716]

4 hours ago, binman said:

silky skills like say Guldens'

I was watching Gulden a few weeks back when he had to play a bit more of an inside mid role in a pressure game.

For someone who is one of the great kicks in the game currently, he continually turned the ball over.

I think this is where the inside role is often not properly understood by many.

[Left Foot Snap 2,382]

5 hours ago, demon3165 said:

Marcus Bontempelli has kicked 232 in 11 seasons even Josh Dacios has kick more goals than Oliver. 

Ok, doesn't change my statement.  Oliver certainly  has the ability to kick more goals. Surprised he hasn't.

[mauriesy 7,203]

5 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Thanks. 56% was close to what i thought it would be, If he could improve 3-4% it would be a huge difference in games

Huge? A 4% improvement is just one kick or handball in a 25-disposal game.

[mauriesy 7,203]

Over his career Clayton Oliver is rated elite for Disposals (28.5), Handballs (16.9), Tackles (5.8) and Total Clearances (6.6). He is very good for Kicks (11.5), probably because as an inside mid who wins a lot of clearances he handballs more.

If you've had him in your AFL Fantasy, he's been elite at that too, with an average of 100.5.

[layzie 33,581]

10 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Huge? A 4% improvement is just one kick or handball in a 25-disposal game.

I'm 36% confused.

[Sir Why You Little 36,797]

12 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Huge? A 4% improvement is just one kick or handball in a 25-disposal game.

An extra 1-2 goals…

[mauriesy 7,203]

Okay, if your disposal efficiency is 50% and you bump it up to 54%, that's two better kicks or handballs in a 25-disposal game.

[mauriesy 7,203]

2 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

An extra 1-2 goals…

Possibly for the whole team, but not just one player.

[Ted Lasso 19,015]

2 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

Possibly for the whole team, but not just one player.