On 22/08/2024 at 23:02, BDA said:

Included in my definitions of nuffies are self-aggrandising types. Make promises they can't keep. Populist politicians. There's plenty of them about and they do get elected.

also, do you mind posting a link to the judgment Farmer? I'd like to have a read

Lawrence v MFC [2024] FCA 945.pdfFetching info...

This has been messy and I hope we can get some clean air for a while. However I am extremely concerned about our contact details being given to a member (email & address) this is wrong and I find a bizarre part of the corporation act.

I hope it is not used & deleted.

  On 22/08/2024 at 08:47, Satyriconhome said:

We have a training ground in two locations at the moment and good facilities.

We don't have our own through the inaction of Boards 20 or 30 years ago, not today's who are trying to play catch up

 

Wrong.  AAMI was instituted by the Stynes board. Cranbourne by Stynes/McLarty. 

It is the current boards inaction for the past 10 years that has been the problem.

  On 22/08/2024 at 08:47, Satyriconhome said:

Peter Lawrence reminds me of some on here.

He only wants what he wants and sulks and pouts when other members don't agree.

I don't mind other posters on here having differing opinions, I just want to be allowed to have mine.

Pot who has never looked in a mirror calls kettle black.

I've been posting here for a long time and people will have formed their views on the value of my content, but I think it's fair to say, as the artist formerly known as Pollyanna, I'm generally very supportive of the club.  But not in this instance.

I've come to know Peter Lawrence since he started to campaign for greater transparency and democracy in our board elections.  I've found him to be of high moral character, someone with broad ranging views that I admire.  He's intelligent, empathetic and generous.  His actions in this matter are all about making the Melbourne Football Club better and not at all about self-agrandisement.  He's paid a big cost reputationally and financially in his quest for a better club and he has directly sought to minimise the costs to MFC.

As @Dr Don Duffy said, the board "won" this action against Lawrence but only after they adopted 4 of the 5 changes he was promoting during the course of the court action.

It doesn't reflect well on this board that they couldn't find a way to accommodate a capable and passionate person like Peter Lawrence and ended up in court twice with outcomes almost totally in favour of his original positions.

  On 22/08/2024 at 22:10, Farmer said:

I urge you to read the judgment. Indeed I urge all of us to read it. It reveals a shameful history by the club admin.  It reveals that in order to meet the absolutely reasonable claims by Lawrence, the Board adopted not 1, not 2 , not 3, but 7 sets of amended rules. It has made massive changes to Rules which were outrageous and oppressive . Whilst Lawrence has certainly been seeking a spot on the Board the changes now made will go some way to enabling ANY MEMBER to put his or her name forward. The Board set up a committee OF BOARD MEMBERS to vet applications by candidates to run for election . They gave way on this, the vetting committee now has a majority of independent members.

the statement by Roffey suggests that the Club has an order for costs against Lawrence. It does not . There is NO ORDER FOR COSTS , the judge urging the parties to confer on this question. 
Again, just read the judgment , I suspect you will be shocked if you do .

So in other words, the board has done the classic 2024 PR move of let's say being deceitful to members vis a vis remuneration of costs and are simply hoping everyone forgets that they've wasted time and money fighting against better governance.

  On 22/08/2024 at 23:48, old55 said:

I've been posting here for a long time and people will have formed their views on the value of my content, but I think it's fair to say, as the artist formerly known as Pollyanna, I'm generally very supportive of the club.  But not in this instance.

I've come to know Peter Lawrence since he started to campaign for greater transparency and democracy in our board elections.  I've found him to be of high moral character, someone with broad ranging views that I admire.  He's intelligent, empathetic and generous.  His actions in this matter are all about making the Melbourne Football Club better and not at all about self-agrandisement.  He's paid a big cost reputationally and financially in his quest for a better club and he has directly sought to minimise the costs to MFC.

As @Dr Don Duffy said, the board "won" this action against Lawrence but only after they adopted 4 of the 5 changes he was promoting during the course of the court action.

It doesn't reflect well on this board that they couldn't find a way to accommodate a capable and passionate person like Peter Lawrence and ended up in court twice with outcomes almost totally in favour of his original positions.

My view and experience too, @old55.

  On 22/08/2024 at 07:36, Dr Don Duffy said:

Good to see the board cheer squad out in full force. 

Disingenuous email from Roffey.

Let’s have a look at the balance sheet since the Peter Jackson-built team roared to premiership glory in 2021.

Looking first at the Peter Lawrence score, he sought to bring the constitution within cooee of 21st century governance principles. He did at least cause term limits for directors and electronic voting to come into being. 

In the current matter, he did ask the board to amend the provisions of the election rules that were poor governance. When they refused he commenced proceedings in the Federal Court. Should never had come to this, but they then proceeded to jettison 4 out of 5 of the offending provisions as the case proceeded. So why did they spend hundreds of thousands maintaining a defence against the indefensible? Our money, Ralph. That was after blowing another small fortune in the Supreme Court on a previous matter that had a poor prognosis of success. Again, we got to the same outcome that could have been achieved without the expenditure of hundreds of thousands of our dollars. 

Turning to the board’s record, apart from the above, we were told that our home base in the MCG precinct is a “non-negotiable”; any questions about progress on this were met with “Can’t talk, commercial in confidence”. After kicking that can down the road at various AGMs we pop up with the “Let’s go to Caulfield” idea. 

And at the AGM we were told that our next Strategic Plan would be out in February. Crickets on that front as we move to September. This is a board and senior management that only reacts when it gets a metaphorical cattle prod to its body, and then claims proactivity in getting to the result that they are forced into. After spending lots of our money. 

Yes, All Hail Roffey and Pert. Personally I cheer for the footy love of my life, the Dees, not board members who over the journey have been “here today, gone tomorrow”. 

To be fair, i don't think there's been that much cheerleading in this thread.

There's a longstanding thread about training grounds where displeasure is often raised about the lack of action from the board. So there is criticism of the board on here, some may not delve too deep into the regulatory side of things - I'll read the judgment on this particular matter over the weekend to get a better understanding.

Only defending i will do is I think Kate Roffey got some unnecessary criticism on here for not talking about Petracca -I don't think she really needs to comment about click bait journalists, she's clearly got more important and pressing tasks to deal with.

  On 23/08/2024 at 00:31, roy11 said:

To be fair, i don't think there's been that much cheerleading in this thread.

There's a longstanding thread about training grounds where displeasure is often raised about the lack of action from the board. So there is criticism of the board on here, some may not delve too deep into the regulatory side of things - I'll read the judgment on this particular matter over the weekend to get a better understanding.

Only defending i will do is I think Kate Roffey got some unnecessary criticism on here for not talking about Petracca -I don't think she really needs to comment about click bait journalists, she's clearly got more important and pressing tasks to deal with.

Whilst critical of our president on the other matter I agree with you.  Not appropriate for her to get involved on football issues 

  On 23/08/2024 at 00:30, Adam The God said:

So in other words, the board has done the classic 2024 PR move of let's say being deceitful to members vis a vis remuneration of costs and are simply hoping everyone forgets that they've wasted time and money fighting against better governance.

To be fair I dont think the comment re: costs was too deceitful. They email said;

The club will now seek recovery of its legal costs from Mr Lawrence

And thats what they'll be seeking whether by negotiation with Mr Lawrence or through Submissions to the Court.

  On 23/08/2024 at 00:36, Farmer said:

Whilst critical of our president on the other matter I agree with you.  Not appropriate for her to get involved on football issues 

100%

I have my own thoughts on our board, and certainly they are far from perfect, Kate included.

But what I do like is that our board stays far away from football matters in a public sense. Brad Green would be the only board member who should have any type of involvement in the footy department, given his experience.

Kate and the rest of the board should be concentrating on governing the club, not running commentary on every players' trade status for goodness sake. 

  On 22/08/2024 at 23:48, old55 said:

I've been posting here for a long time and people will have formed their views on the value of my content, but I think it's fair to say, as the artist formerly known as Pollyanna, I'm generally very supportive of the club.  But not in this instance.

I've come to know Peter Lawrence since he started to campaign for greater transparency and democracy in our board elections.  I've found him to be of high moral character, someone with broad ranging views that I admire.  He's intelligent, empathetic and generous.  His actions in this matter are all about making the Melbourne Football Club better and not at all about self-agrandisement.  He's paid a big cost reputationally and financially in his quest for a better club and he has directly sought to minimise the costs to MFC.

As @Dr Don Duffy said, the board "won" this action against Lawrence but only after they adopted 4 of the 5 changes he was promoting during the course of the court action.

It doesn't reflect well on this board that they couldn't find a way to accommodate a capable and passionate person like Peter Lawrence and ended up in court twice with outcomes almost totally in favour of his original positions.

Well said old55. I certainly don't agree with some of the treatment of Mr Lawrence.

We have one Demonlander who has confessed to stalking Mr Lawrence with the use of various email identities. Childish and dangerous. Another Demonlander inciting the use of bricks.

What have we come to?

tbh i think a lot of peter's complaints were warranted but the approach he took did him no favours

  On 22/08/2024 at 23:08, Kent said:

Lawrence v MFC [2024] FCA 945.pdf 382.98 kB · 18 downloads

These judgements really should include an executive summary. I'll have to set aside an afternoon to get through all that.

  On 23/08/2024 at 03:53, whatwhat say what said:

tbh i think a lot of peter's complaints were warranted but the approach he took did him no favours

Spot on

  On 22/08/2024 at 09:09, Demon Disciple said:

They’re all culpable imo.

true, and if that wretched board from 1996 had their way we'd be in the middle of building new facilities at Dingley..... as the Melbourne Hawks

Totally Agree But  the Board should Demand a FULL AND COMPREHENSIVE Audit and Examination of the Football Operations in all Areas and if the result is damming CHANGE NO PERSON SHOULD BE EXEMPT FROM THE Coach to the Boot studder

The judgement was an interesting read.

My only conclusion is that we are currently in season 3 of “War of the Worlds”, and Kate’s letter to members was written in one world, and the Court case happened in an alternate reality.  

Everybody seems to be forgetting, Lawrence of Aggrandisement was nominated and he didn't get enough votes, then did a Trump and claimed it was rigged.

Passionate about the club my [censored], he has cost the club time and money.

  On 22/08/2024 at 07:36, Dr Don Duffy said:

Good to see the board cheer squad out in full force. 

Disingenuous email from Roffey.

Let’s have a look at the balance sheet since the Peter Jackson-built team roared to premiership glory in 2021.

Looking first at the Peter Lawrence score, he sought to bring the constitution within cooee of 21st century governance principles. He did at least cause term limits for directors and electronic voting to come into being. 

In the current matter, he did ask the board to amend the provisions of the election rules that were poor governance. When they refused he commenced proceedings in the Federal Court. Should never had come to this, but they then proceeded to jettison 4 out of 5 of the offending provisions as the case proceeded. So why did they spend hundreds of thousands maintaining a defence against the indefensible? Our money, Ralph. That was after blowing another small fortune in the Supreme Court on a previous matter that had a poor prognosis of success. Again, we got to the same outcome that could have been achieved without the expenditure of hundreds of thousands of our dollars. 

Turning to the board’s record, apart from the above, we were told that our home base in the MCG precinct is a “non-negotiable”; any questions about progress on this were met with “Can’t talk, commercial in confidence”. After kicking that can down the road at various AGMs we pop up with the “Let’s go to Caulfield” idea. 

And at the AGM we were told that our next Strategic Plan would be out in February. Crickets on that front as we move to September. This is a board and senior management that only reacts when it gets a metaphorical cattle prod to its body, and then claims proactivity in getting to the result that they are forced into. After spending lots of our money. 

Yes, All Hail Roffey and Pert. Personally I cheer for the footy love of my life, the Dees, not board members who over the journey have been “here today, gone tomorrow”. 

There's no doubt Roffey's email was disingenuous. It's Christian Porter-esque, to be honest, and insulting to members as a result. 

Over the last few years I've generally found myself disapproving of Peter Lawrence's actions. As much as you and his other supporters on here seek to characterise his push for change as noble and in pursuit of best practice, it has always, and IMO reading the judgment clearly remains, also in push of his selfish desires. 

However, the judgment makes relatively clear enough that the club ultimately couldn't resist most of what he was asking for, because the majority of his proposals were clearly fair and reasonable. For that, the failure to work this out prior to litigation is a failure which sits as much on the club as anyone else.

At its core, I continue to think that his selfish desires got in the way of a better and more important message. Even with what should be considered largely a success, I doubt he would ever be elected to the board, and I think that's something he should accept responsibility for.

Related to that, I noticed the following parts of the judgment:

1. The judge accepted that the board acted bona fide and without collateral motive, balancing the club's interests against Peter's. That is contrary to what I believe Peter has argued, and what I know some on here have argued (i.e. that the board had ulterior motives, designed to protect them or their boys/girls club)
2. Peter persisted with the litigation because he wants the club to allow candidates for election to be able to go on radio and TV and give interviews in which they are permitted to disparage not just the current board, but members, players, the club at large and other candidates. The club's board and governance is important, but not important enough that we should be having candidates running a Trump v Harris style debate in public, bringing the club to the forefront of the media where we've been spending far too much time of late
3. Both the club and Peter were faintly criticised by the judge for comparing the club's rules to other club's. The judge made it clear that is irrelevant. 

There's no doubt the club's election rules are in a better place now than they were 2 years ago, and for that Peter deserves credit, but the ends do not always justify the means.

PS: there's also no doubt the board has failed in a number of its own KPIs (so to speak). The home base situation is a debacle.

  On 23/08/2024 at 08:58, FreedFromDesire said:

Excellent post. I don't have a dog in this fight, I can see the reasonable issues and argument raised on both sides. On the above though, I would just raise this quote from reporting on the proceedings:

“Mr Lawrence’s dogged efforts to persuade the MFC to change its election rules and practices have already resulted in the MFC adopting many of the changes to the club’s rules along the lines of those for which he contended,” Justice O’Callaghan said.

Mr Lawrence said those changes addressed some, but not all, of his concerns.

Perhaps I'm reading into that too much, but that does come across in a way where perhaps the club had attempted to reasonably satisfy Mr Lawrence's fair requests but maybe he wasn't happy with just 'some'?

To be clear, I'm not arguing on the board's behalf, I have my own reservations about certain things with the current board, but more just saying that the failure may not be on the club in that regard?

He will only ever be satisfied if he gets on the Board. Wonder if he is a fan of Trump. I would never vote for a supporter who takes my Club to court

  On 22/08/2024 at 08:47, Satyriconhome said:

He only wants what he wants and sulks and pouts when other members don't agree.

I don't mind other posters on here having differing opinions, I just want to be allowed to have mine.

I appreciate you, Saty, but far out, do you have any self-awareness? 

  On 23/08/2024 at 09:13, Satyriconhome said:

He will only ever be satisfied if he gets on the Board. Wonder if he is a fan of Trump. I would never vote for a supporter who takes my Club to court

Typical comment from someone running a protection racket for the "Old boys & girls closed shop"

It will certainly be interesting to see what his next course of action will be

  On 23/08/2024 at 09:13, Satyriconhome said:

He will only ever be satisfied if he gets on the Board. Wonder if he is a fan of Trump. I would never vote for a supporter who takes my Club to court

MMGA Make Melbourne Great Again! 

  On 23/08/2024 at 09:26, Cranky Franky said:

Typical comment from someone running a protection racket for the "Old boys & girls closed shop"

Not me Cap'n, just don't like somebody who won't accept the umpire's decision