POSTGAME: Rd 09 vs Carlton

[jnrmac 20,058]

50 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

If he contacted the head it has to be a week, same principle as Pickett v Adelaide. Low actual contact upgraded to medium on potential to injure.

If he didn’t contact the head then it‘s nothing. 

Similar to Pickett v Cripps in last years final. 1 week.

[DeeSpencer 25,678]

I thought we bit off too much early trying to mix our game style, once we settled down and shared the ball more steadily the gaps opened up and our ball use was mostly good, allowing for it being a wet night against a good set backline and pressure.

I still want to see guys trust the receiver with the handball, we miss opportunities to just give the quick one before teams get set. But we don’t need to be going for crazy high risk stationery kicks.

In the second half we settled in to a pretty sound style of switch, spread, overlap and bring the ball in to more dangerous spots once we’d moved the Carlton zone.

Usually the last couple of years we've scored early in bursts and then run out of puff. It was nice to see our scoring and method pick up as the game went on. 

Forward talent isn’t ideal but the fundamental problem is we try miracle kicks to walk in goals rather than taking a brief pause, getting to the forwards advantage and letting them do their job. 

[jnrmac 20,058]

2 hours ago, layzie said:

Not one for using the dreaded 5 day break excuse but our game on Saturday was as taxing as they come, 5 days later and it's a wet track against a contender. It a lot of ways it does make the comeback look pretty impressive.

A forget game for me and hardly a representation of what the season holds for us, we'll bounce back. 

Carlton was playing their 3rd game in 13 days. We have no excuse.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,817]

3 hours ago, Oxdee said:

Does anyone have stats on sides winning after a 5 day break. Seems to be a real disadvantage 

I don’t have them handy but I recall Collingwood knocking off Adelaide last year and Carlton knocking off Sydney in 2022 off 5 day breaks. And obviously we won a 5 day break in Adelaide in round 4, and also won off a 5 day break last year (Richmond into North round 7).

Meanwhile Adelaide just won a showdown off a 5 day break, and Brisbane put in a shocker on Anzac Day Vs GWS off a 5 day break.

I honestly don’t think 5 day breaks are as bad as what people make them out to be. It’s the accumulated condensed breaks that probably trouble clubs.

Edited May 10 by Bring-Back-Powell

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

7 minutes ago, Doug Reemer said:

Theres alot to be ashamed of. Couldn’t turn up for even 5-10 minutes in the first..

There really isn't, the boys are full of heart. 

[Rab D Nesbitt 8,367]

I'm taking solace in the fact that Carlton's very best can beat us by a kick whilst our very best would see us tear them a new a-hole. 

[Fat Tony 5,228]

Goodwin needs to alter out method for wet weather. More surge forward and less handball in the stoppages would be a good change, particularly early on in the game when the heat is on. And there should be no loose players forward of the stoppages. The connection between Max and the midfield was poor last night, especially in the centre bounces.

The move of Petracca to the forward line was a big success, but I think Fritsch will give us just as much as the deepest forward in dry conditions.

I would like to see Rivers used in the midfield. We need some more size and power in there.

[Clintosaurus 7,843]

27 minutes ago, Gawndy the Great said:

Yes that is what appeared to happen. But it wasn't an official score review so they just stick to the normal routine.

If we lose another game to stupid umpiring error(s) again, im done. I can handle being beaten fair and square by an opposition, but when its due to poor officiating, its a different feeling - being cheated doesn't sit well with me.

It was an official score review though, as I'm guessing the ARC said 'hold play - score review'? Seems they looked for about 3 seconds but gave no indication on the decision other than the ball being bounced.

There are games decided almost every week by terrible umpiring, and it seems the same teams benefit every time. If it isn't cheating then at the least it is bad coaching of the umpires. I think the umpires coaches are steering the umps in certain directions through instruction on what to look for.

[Clintosaurus 7,843]

17 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Carlton was playing their 3rd game in 13 days. We have no excuse.

I reckon two six day breaks in a row is OK - we won 3 straight in 2017 like that, but the week after (another six day break) had an absolute shocker. It is the accumulation but the third break was one too many. Carlton have an 8 day break now.

[binman 42,896]

1 hour ago, Jjrogan said:

Respectfully disagree on the quarter time address. Listening to his press conference he seemed pretty filthy about our efforts in the contest at both ends of the ground in the 1st.  

As much as their goal kicking was (slightly) anomalous, our contest work was too and I'm sure he focused on what we can control. 

Yeah, of course.

I wasn't suggesting that he only would have focused on the x score and given them a pass.

He would make clear what they were doing wrong and what they need to address.

But the days of a coach tearing strip's off players and only focusing on what the team had done poorly are well and truly history.

So he would have made clear what they are doing poorly, identified issues (eg kicks inside 50, defensive issues - i tgought tmac had his worst game this season and Martin worried us early) and provided solutions (something goody has said is what game day coaching is about).

AND he would have pointed out what we are doing right, using the x score (and other metrics) as evidence of that - and that the gap between the two performances wasn't as big as the scoreboard suggested.

He would have also pointed out our efforts wasn't miles off in the first - 186 to 200 in the first quarter and after getting smashed early for cp we turned it around. 

We were def on our back foot early in the contest- down 10 cp after 15 mins, but after that we were +2 for cps for the rest of the match. So they fought back.

And we were up in tackles, and other key metrics, eg inside 50s.

And he would have pointed out at half time, boys you are still in tgis. Keep grinding.

And he was proven correct.

This was the pressure ratings for the match, suggesting we doubled down and really got to work:

Quarter	For	Against
1	186	200
2	189	163
3	217	209
4	221	201
Match	202	194

Improve what needs to be improved. Stick to your roles, keep the contest and pressure up. Trust the system  You're in this. The wheel will turn.

And it did.

I have heard maxy say that is precisely what goody's message was at quarter and half time of the pies final.

You could visibly see the blues wilting, and us wresting the momentum. I said as much to my mate at the game - predicting even after we went 38 points down we were still a chance to win.

I think a key factor in the loss was when we did start wresting momentum they got a couple of goals straight after a goal from us. Those sort of goals really hurt.

But ultimately, as goody said straight up in his presser, the game was lost going 6 goals down. I'd be guessing in the history of footy it would be no better than i in 30 for teams winning after being 6 goals down at any point in a game. 

Edited May 10 by binman

[Rab D Nesbitt 8,367]

I really miss having Gus in our midfield rotation. 

A midfield of Gawn, Viney, Petracca, Oliver, Brayshaw, Langdon and Windsor would be the footballing equivalent of facing Marshall, Holding, Croft, Garner, Ambrose, Walsh & Roberts. 

[titan_uranus 25,000]

32 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

I don’t have them handy but I recall Collingwood knocking off Adelaide last year and Carlton knocking off Sydney in 2022 off 5 day breaks. And obviously we won a 5 day break in Adelaide in round 4, and also won off a 5 day break last year (Richmond into North round 7).

Meanwhile Adelaide just won a showdown off a 5 day break, and Brisbane put in a shocker on Anzac Day Vs GWS off a 5 day break.

I honestly don’t think 5 day breaks are as bad as what people make them out to be. It’s the accumulated condensed breaks that probably trouble clubs.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/1125436

More wins than losses for sides on 5 day breaks so far this year. 

This also says clubs can have up to 3 5 day breaks, which I wasn’t aware of. If we cop a third, when others so far haven’t had any…

[Demonland 72,155]

 

[Deespicable 2,726]

1 hour ago, deelusions from afar said:

I agree.  Having said that, Geelong are one of the lowest ranked teams for clearance etc - it's all about the slingshot on the rebound.  So if we have players in there that are prepared to win it if they can but their first priority is to ensure the other team doesn't get a clean centre clearance, then maybe it's less of a loss (he's obviously going to play a mix).

What I did like is that Goody the last few weeks has shown an ability to shake things up a bit to get the right mix.  Petracca forward is an obvious one.  But also getting ANB in the middle (maybe no one else has the tank to go with Walsh?) and his use of Langdon was different also.

Last week I noticed Fritsch was much higher up the ground for parts of the game.  This was probably about dragging his player away from being third man up - but it also meant that Fritsch delivered some kicks into the forward line and that is a strength you miss when he is playing deep (not saying he shouldn't play deep but it's good to be a bit less predictable).

While I like the fact that you have spotted the key changes, please don't try and make out that Goody is a clever coach.

We are now in an era where the coaches train players in their three parts of the ground and generally are way to scared to rock the boat and switch them. In the old days when players actually had a direct opponent and not a zone area to man, coaches would swing players who were getting beaten around all the time - the Rev was a master of it, while further back Barass made his reputation on it.

Not for the first time this year Petty was getting beaten, as was Turner - both defenders by trait. Weitering is a great player, so Petty was always going to be up against it,  McGovern had Fritters measure, even Cincotta was chasing down Kozzie. Down back T.Mac had made two massive howlers and was coming off a five-day break and is 31. At what point did the coach think, hey I'll send Turner or Petty back and bring T-Mac forward or if that doesn't work, take T.Mac off early so we had more run. That is not a slight on T-Mac, he's been pretty handy this year, but he's 31 and coming off a game where he had to run everywhere to keep up with Cameron and that's they type of scenario when five days can be a factor. You are allowed to switch players or sub them off - have a look at what Freo did last week - they played Fyfe as the sub so that he could play a full game tonight because there was just a five-day break. That's smart management. Goody has never understood that stuff.

True, Goody figured that given Trac couldn't get it in the midfield he'd send him forward - that in itself is a huge lightbulb moment for Goody. And after kicking our first two and getting the momentum back, what did Goody do - he watched as Trac was taken off right in front of him because of rotations - don't worry about the fact that we were finally on a roll and our forwards were gaining confidence having Trac around. Goody allowed the same thing to happen in the third term. It was only in the last term when blind freddie could see that Trac was the factor that he left him on the entire quarter as full forward.

Using ANB as a Walsh tag was also in the captain obvious category. ANB has always been our fittest runner and is the only player with the tank that could go with him. Yes it required a restructure and yes I should give more credit to Goody for allowing it to happen. But don't tell me it was revolutionary. What should happen now is that Goody should start thinking are there any other gun midfielders who we can use ANB on to quell - most likely after halftime when tiredness creeps in for most - Lachie Neale rd 16 is one I'd have in mind for ANB. There's no need for it to happen every week - just use it was a weapon when needed to break up our predictability.

What I do give Goody credit for is that he seems to have the players' support - I think in his desperation to cover up any of his own misdemeanours, we the public don't really get to see the confident supportive character that I suspect he is behind the scenes.

 

 

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

1 hour ago, DeeZee said:

The lack of intensity in the first quarters of the Carlton and Brisbane games are worrying factors for me.

You'd think they’d be super pumped for these big games.

Were were switched on against the cats, but way off it against Blues and Lions.

I have been worrying about what seems lack of resilience to complete a season out at our best or even manage short breaks between games. Two lame straight sets finals exits and generally underwhelming performances after short breaks book ending excellent and consistent performances the rest of the time kind of shows a pattern we are limited for maintaining high standards. As for last night and against Brisbane it was clearly not fitness or tiredness. Somehow the players equilibrium seems off with abnormal routines for big games.

Edited May 10 by John Crow Batty

[Ollie fan 3,370]

Should have switched TMac?? 
 

McKay and Curnow kicked 3 goals between them.  TMac made a couple of mistakes, but how many goals would they have kicked if we had eg Turner on McKay? 
 

I am VERY glad they did not make that switch.

[greenwaves 489]

Five day breaks are here to stay.  Get over it.

[leave it to deever 17,511]

Did the five day break bite us on the backside.

Interesting that a lot of the players who had big games last week were flat.

Kozzie, Langdon, Lever, Fritta, Lever,  Petty and Oliver in particular.

That's quite a list.

[demon3165 2,718]

2 hours ago, poita said:

Certainly couldn't fault the effort after quarter time, but we lost for two reasons:

1. I'm okay with our forwards not taking marks, as long as they are making a contest and bringing the ball to ground. We were excellent in this respect against Geelong, but terrible last night. The ease with which Weitering and co took intercept marks in our forward 50 was astounding.

2. The inability of our onballers to nullify Walsh and Cripps in the first 3 quarters, and especially the first quarter. Viney and Oliver may well not have entered the centre square given how ineffective they were. Petracca was banished to the forward line at quarter time for this reason also. We looked much better when Sparrow and Neal-Bullen were heavily involved later.

Ultimately those two reasons were why Carlton kicked the first six goals, and the game was effectively done at that point. Well done to our group for fighting on and preserving our percentage, but it was too little too late.

 

Regarding the forwards I agree with that but a lot of the problems are forwards flat footed, no running patterns players standing behind their opponents,  maybe they should listen to Nick Riewoldt, Jason Dunstall etc they call it running in figure eights move around so you can be on the go all the time instead of standing around their is no system and it's been that way for the last 2 years.

[Adam The God 30,220]

11 hours ago, Go Lordie said:

With due deference to Binman, it certainly looked like centre clearances were important tonight.

Sorry, but I'm going to pull you up on this.

No one is saying clearances can't be important, but we're urging caution in how we read those stats.

Just taking stats in isolation doesn't necessarily tell us anything.

[binman 42,896]

25 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

Goodwin needs to alter out method for wet weather. More surge forward and less handball in the stoppages would be a good change, particularly early on in the game when the heat is on. And there should be no loose players forward of the stoppages. The connection between Max and the midfield was poor last night, especially in the centre bounces.

The move of Petracca to the forward line was a big success, but I think Fritsch will give us just as much as the deepest forward in dry conditions.

I would like to see Rivers used in the midfield. We need some more size and power in there.

Goody DID adapt our game plan for the wet weather.

Goody gets bagged all the time for  not 'adapting' to the conditions when it rains.

Wet weather footy is traditionally territory first, get it forward and deep inside 50.

Which is exactly what we did. So, on this occasion we did adapt (though we did keep trying high risk quick handballs, many of which came unstuck).

The numbers reflected that, winning the inside 50 count and the territory battle as evidenced by the anomalous (this season) time in forward half numbers:

Quarter	For	Against
1	53%	47%
2	50%	50%
3	51%	49%
4	76%	24%
Match	59%	41%

And there's the rub.

A key reason goody doesn't like to make big changes to method week to week is we are a system based team.

It' no small thing to suddenly use another method- even if it is one that was previously our primary method, particularly given we are trying to implement and bed down a new system this season.

Another factor was the forecast was for no rain. I doubt they would have planned for it to be so wet, and likely not trained for it. I was shocked when it started raining at the ground an hour before the game.

So they may have had to change their tactics on game day (after possibly training for a different method during the week).

It dried out considerably after half time - there was no rain, or at least not in the last.

And we bounced off half back and spread the ground much more and reverted to the style we have been using tgis season - one more suited to dry weather.

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,720]

57 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Similar to Pickett v Cripps in last years final. 1 week.

It's more similar to Pickett on Soligo this year. Actually identical.

So if he doesn't get a week I will be peeved.

[dazzledavey36 54,861]

1 hour ago, Doug Reemer said:

Theres alot to be ashamed of. Couldn’t turn up for even 5-10 minutes in the first..

For like couldn't turn up until the last quarter.

[demon3165 2,718]

2 hours ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

I wasn't one of the people that complained about prime tv spots. I go to the games as opposed to watching them on TV so I couldn't care less what time slot we're on. I love Saturday afternoon footy which has become a TV dead zone.

The point I was making is that we clearly have an issue with Thursday night games given the record I quoted. If we have preparation issues heading into Thursday night games, I'd therefore be happy to not play in them.

I never said you were and I love Saturday afternoon games myself but unfortunately being a better club result wise the sponsors love it, bigger audience bigger exposure for them, just remember we started slow and a bullet train coming home so it's not a fitness issue otherwise we would have been beaten by 10 goals plus. 

As I have said before we are a one paced midfield who rely on contested possessions not quick movement. 

[wisedog 352]

I am disappointed we lost, but I'm also relieved at the way we played out the game. On multiple occasions we toiled and toiled for a goal, and Carlton responded almost immediately - to keep coming, against a very good side, in poor conditions was really significant. If Carlton ran out to a 50+ point win, the media narrative would have been relentless. But we were able to flip the script and probably also do a bit of damage to Carlton.

Also, Petracca is probably the most damaging forward on our list (despite his accuracy issues). I remember Garry Lyon saying last year he was the best mark. If only we had two of him.