POSTGAME: Opening Round vs Sydney

[Kent 2,914]

10 hours ago, Superunknown said:

Now this is very interesting

how else could one explain his absence in those games and much more importantly the Carlton game

I think that Goodwins' closeness to some payers is a poor look and counter productive Wouldnt be surprised that Max spat the dummy If not we needed a please  explain which wasn't forthcoming

[leave it to deever 17,517]

Great analysis by George from the outer in his article " nought from zero".

I thought the Swans were very adroit in flooding our fwd line as well.

It was an absolute sea of red, white and blue.

Mason Cox would have been proud.

 

[leave it to deever 17,517]

11 hours ago, Fromgotowoewodin said:

I agree it had gone bad when they went with “we’re dropping him so he can learn forward craft” - he’s an all Australian ruck and we knew what we were getting when we signed him. That was a weak cover story.

There was a choice to be made, get 60-70% out of Max and 60-70% out of Grundy or get 100% out of Max and send Grundy to the 2s. Choice was made. I’m disappointed it didn’t work as we now have stuff all back up but it didn’t cost us last night, ****house forward line work cost us.

But did they find a fwd to replace hime with? The answer is no.

Clearly they've thought that Bbb, Tmac and Schache will probably work.

Even if they haven't for a couple of years now.

It's not like them out injured or out of form again is a surprise to any of us here.

Carlton showed us last night how important it is to have a couple of power  talls up fwd.

Edited March 8 by leave it to deever

[Fromgotowoewodin 1,606]

21 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

But did they find a fwd to replace hime with? The answer is no.

Clearly they've thought that Bbb, Tmac and Schache will probably work.

Even if they haven't for a couple of years now.

It's not like them out injured or out of form again is a surprise to any of us here.

Carlton showed us last night how important it is to have a couple of power  talls up fwd.

I think they know BBB and TMac are cooked, and I’m not sure what they ever saw in Schache apart from emergency depth. 

We got Grundy when there were no key forwards available for trade, hoping we could get ~40 goals out of him and Max.  That didn’t work as one or both didn’t like sharing the job, Grundy wanted out so we let him go. 

Unfortunately we still couldn’t find a key forward for trade and are now stuck hoping Petty and JVR can get it done. I think in hindsight we’ll look back and wish we’d traded one of the untradeable mids for a gun forward but I don’t know if there were any deals to be done. 

[rpfc 28,769]

10 hours ago, monoccular said:

JVR was in effect a solo tall in the forward line. A solo tall target for our upfield players and a more so a single tall target for the opposition to concentrate on. He desperately needs a tall helper, one with bit of passion and competitiveness so not the nice guy Schache.   Trouble with that question is who can fill that role?

The other downside to not having that big lump up there is that this is prime ‘development’ years for JVR and I fear he is learning all the wrong lessons. For example last year, even when he wasn’t the ‘out’ kick up the ground (when Gawn or Grundy was), he didn’t then move to exploit space that he could utilise in the F50, he just mirrored the actions of the lump that calls for it on his head to get territory (‘out’ kick).

I hope Petty and JVR allow each other to have more freedom but it’s a combination of how we move the footy, our desired structures AND individual capability and talent that will get us a functioning forward line for Petty and, especially, JVR to adequately develop in.

But it’s all hope. Need to see it.

[leave it to deever 17,517]

30 minutes ago, rpfc said:

The other downside to not having that big lump up there is that this is prime ‘development’ years for JVR and I fear he is learning all the wrong lessons. For example last year, even when he wasn’t the ‘out’ kick up the ground (when Gawn or Grundy was), he didn’t then move to exploit space that he could utilise in the F50, he just mirrored the actions of the lump that calls for it on his head to get territory (‘out’ kick).

I hope Petty and JVR allow each other to have more freedom but it’s a combination of how we move the footy, our desired structures AND individual capability and talent that will get us a functioning forward line for Petty and, especially, JVR to adequately develop in.

But it’s all hope. Need to see it.

Swans smashed us in the marking stat.

Jvr couldn't get his hands on it and Max was struggling.

Our only talls.

[leave it to deever 17,517]

1 hour ago, Fromgotowoewodin said:

I think they know BBB and TMac are cooked, and I’m not sure what they ever saw in Schache apart from emergency depth. 

We got Grundy when there were no key forwards available for trade, hoping we could get ~40 goals out of him and Max.  That didn’t work as one or both didn’t like sharing the job, Grundy wanted out so we let him go. 

Unfortunately we still couldn’t find a key forward for trade and are now stuck hoping Petty and JVR can get it done. I think in hindsight we’ll look back and wish we’d traded one of the untradeable mids for a gun forward but I don’t know if there were any deals to be done. 

There's always a deal to be done. It's just a question of how much.

When Milkshake went down,I thought the urgency would go up.

Nup.

[DemonWA 3,936]

Disappointing game but alot of time to improve. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,291]

16 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

All that happened points to just that conclusion. The refusal to select Grundy in the last 5 weeks or so tells me something went wrong at the club. The original plan was for Grundy to ruck and Max to go forward and pinch hit in the ruck. Max didn’t work up forward. By round 18 it was Grundy who was sent packing to work on his forward craft because it wasn’t working up forward. And that was it for Grundy. It’s a team sport but I have had a suspicion that the captain spat the dummy on this. 

I don't think he spat the dummy, I think the club were relying on him playing more time forward as he got older to protect him and make the combo work. Unfortunately Max is a poor forward, way to innacurate from set shots and takes the shots on the run he should be handing off. Played out of his skin in the 21 Prelim which set a ridiculously high standard that it's impossible for him to reach again.

We weren't gonna dump Max so when him playing forward for larger parts wasn't an option we tried to shoehorn Grundy into that role. He's not a natural forward either and when we dropped him to the VFL to improve his forward craft I think he probably saw the writing on the wall and checked out. That's why he didn't play finals, even as a sub.

Edited March 9 by Dr. Gonzo

[ElDiablo14 5,002]

3 hours ago, Fromgotowoewodin said:

I think they know BBB and TMac are cooked, and I’m not sure what they ever saw in Schache apart from emergency depth. 

We got Grundy when there were no key forwards available for trade, hoping we could get ~40 goals out of him and Max.  That didn’t work as one or both didn’t like sharing the job, Grundy wanted out so we let him go. 

Unfortunately we still couldn’t find a key forward for trade and are now stuck hoping Petty and JVR can get it done. I think in hindsight we’ll look back and wish we’d traded one of the untradeable mids for a gun forward but I don’t know if there were any deals to be done. 

Clarry for one of the Crows forwards? I don't think so.

[ElDiablo14 5,002]

1 hour ago, DemonWA said:

Disappointing game but alot of time to improve. 

We've told ourselves that since we lost in the 2022 finals... How much time does the coaching staff need?

[ElDiablo14 5,002]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't think he spat the dummy, I think the club were relying on him playing more time forward as he got older to protect him and make the combo work. Unfortunately Max is a poor forward, way to innacurate from set shots and takes the shots on the run he should be handing off. Played out of his skin in the 21 Prelim which set a ridiculously high standard that it's impossible for him to reach again.

We weren't gonna dump Max so when him playing forward for larger parts wasn't an option we tried to shoehorn Grundy into that role. He's not a natural forward either and when we dropped him to the VFL to improve his forward craft I think he probably saw the writing on the wall and checked out. That's why he didn't play finals, even as a sub.

Can't the coaches send the message to Max that he is a subpar forward?

He should be aware of his deficiencies and shortcomings in his game, and not try to over do it.

[DeeSpencer 26,080]

3 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

But did they find a fwd to replace hime with? The answer is no.

Clearly they've thought that Bbb, Tmac and Schache will probably work.

Even if they haven't for a couple of years now.

It's not like them out injured or out of form again is a surprise to any of us here.

Carlton showed us last night how important it is to have a couple of power  talls up fwd.

It's baffling we kept Schache as a 3rd ruck / 4th or 5th key forward rather than just switching to literally anyone else. Not because it guarantees the anyone else will be better but there's no risk in trying. Especially when Schache came in just to replace Weid who we finally moved on.

That said, Fullarton replaced Grundy, let's see how he goes.

They made a decision half a season of Melk is worth the half a season of no Melk.

They made a decision keeping BBB in the hope of a miracle recovery for a few games is better than paying him not to play.

If we are fair dinkum we should enter next year with at least 3 and possibly up to 6 new talls (BBB, Schache, Melk, J Smith, T Mc, Tomlinson). 7 if they move Petty a year before his contract is up.

Port Adelaide found themselves in a similar situation last year with key defenders and rucks. They managed to add 4 new talls last offseason. 

 

[ElDiablo14 5,002]

4 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

It's baffling we kept Schache as a 3rd ruck / 4th or 5th key forward rather than just switching to literally anyone else. Not because it guarantees the anyone else will be better but there's no risk in trying. Especially when Schache came in just to replace Weid who we finally moved on.

That said, Fullarton replaced Grundy, let's see how he goes.

They made a decision half a season of Melk is worth the half a season of no Melk.

They made a decision keeping BBB in the hope of a miracle recovery for a few games is better than paying him not to play.

If we are fair dinkum we should enter next year with at least 3 and possibly up to 6 new talls (BBB, Schache, Melk, J Smith, T Mc, Tomlinson). 7 if they move Petty a year before his contract is up.

Port Adelaide found themselves in a similar situation last year with key defenders and rucks. They managed to add 4 new talls last offseason. 

 

Hopefully we have Gus salary out of our cap space, that would be useful.

We can hope we can a bid for one of the King brothers or someone of that calibre.

[DeeSpencer 26,080]

14 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Hopefully we have Gus salary out of our cap space, that would be useful.

We can hope we can a bid for one of the King brothers or someone of that calibre.

I'd dial expectations back significantly. The Kings aren't going anywhere. No doubt we'll throw our hat in the ring like 16 other clubs for JUH. But I doubt he makes a move across town for a regressing side. 

But we don't need superstars, if we had a pair of Brody Mihocek's to straighten us up, or even just one at CHF to compliment JVR we'd see so much less confusion and panic by the mids and flankers and suddenly a lot of our ball movement issues would be sorted. We'd still have to convert but I think the struggles with finishing are mostly down to pressure building on guys who don't know when there next clean look inside 50 is coming.

[Nascent 9,283]

 

36 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I'd dial expectations back significantly. The Kings aren't going anywhere. No doubt we'll throw our hat in the ring like 16 other clubs for JUH. But I doubt he makes a move across town for a regressing side. 

But we don't need superstars, if we had a pair of Brody Mihocek's to straighten us up, or even just one at CHF to compliment JVR we'd see so much less confusion and panic by the mids and flankers and suddenly a lot of our ball movement issues would be sorted. We'd still have to convert but I think the struggles with finishing are mostly down to pressure building on guys who don't know when there next clean look inside 50 is coming.

Agreed. Can't see us acquiring an established key forward star as much as we'd like one.

At the end of the year we are likely to have significant cash with Brayshaw, B Brown, T-Mac, Melksham with ? Over J Smith, Hunter, Tomlinson (likely to stay on given our key position depth issues?) and Laurie. Add in expanded cap space and we should have well over $1mil. That's not including a potential trade request from Petty or any other surprise contracted player along the way.

However, given the evident holes on the list we should really go about acquiring multiple established mid tier players to compliment our stars.

McRae shipped out Grundy to facilitate the influx of Bobby Hill, McStay, Tom Mitchell and Frampton. That won them the flag the following year.

We, hopefully without losing a core 22 player, need to utilise our cap to attack the trade and FA period in a similar fashion.

In no particular order we need a Ruck, Mid, Medium defender, Key Forward as well as potentially insurance for life after May.

Edited March 9 by Nascent

[Earl Hood 6,101]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't think he spat the dummy, I think the club were relying on him playing more time forward as he got older to protect him and make the combo work. Unfortunately Max is a poor forward, way to innacurate from set shots and takes the shots on the run he should be handing off. Played out of his skin in the 21 Prelim which set a ridiculously high standard that it's impossible for him to reach again.

We weren't gonna dump Max so when him playing forward for larger parts wasn't an option we tried to shoehorn Grundy into that role. He's not a natural forward either and when we dropped him to the VFL to improve his forward craft I think he probably saw the writing on the wall and checked out. That's why he didn't play finals, even as a sub.

Interesting take that you think a professional footballer would check out leading into a finals series. He did all the training as I remember it and seemed to be getting on with his team mates during those finals training sessions. 

[hemingway 7,631]

22 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

It’s all history now but I agree the whole Grundy saga was a stuff up. Interesting Cornes had a lot to say about it on SEN this morning. He said we had Grundy signed for 4 years but let him go one of our fiercest competitors, not the Eagles or Kangeroos, for pick 46! And did this knowing there was no ready backup ruckman for a 32 yr old. He has a valid point. Our whole season depends on Max staying fit. The inability to make the Grundy thing work still staggers me. 

Total agreement, the whole Grundy thing reflects very poorly on the club particularly the coach. As you say Earl a stuff up. 

[John Crow Batty 8,878]

2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

It's baffling we kept Schache as a 3rd ruck / 4th or 5th key forward rather than just switching to literally anyone else. Not because it guarantees the anyone else will be better but there's no risk in trying. Especially when Schache came in just to replace Weid who we finally moved on.

That said, Fullarton replaced Grundy, let's see how he goes.

They made a decision half a season of Melk is worth the half a season of no Melk.

They made a decision keeping BBB in the hope of a miracle recovery for a few games is better than paying him not to play.

If we are fair dinkum we should enter next year with at least 3 and possibly up to 6 new talls (BBB, Schache, Melk, J Smith, T Mc, Tomlinson). 7 if they move Petty a year before his contract is up.

Port Adelaide found themselves in a similar situation last year with key defenders and rucks. They managed to add 4 new talls last offseason. 

 

That said, Fullarton replaced Grundy, let's see how he goes.”

I have less confidence with Fullarron than with Schache as a back up ruckman.  In three seasons, 19 games for 50 hit outs. Is this guy a ruckman? 

[demon3165 2,804]

5 hours ago, rpfc said:

The other downside to not having that big lump up there is that this is prime ‘development’ years for JVR and I fear he is learning all the wrong lessons. For example last year, even when he wasn’t the ‘out’ kick up the ground (when Gawn or Grundy was), he didn’t then move to exploit space that he could utilise in the F50, he just mirrored the actions of the lump that calls for it on his head to get territory (‘out’ kick).

I hope Petty and JVR allow each other to have more freedom but it’s a combination of how we move the footy, our desired structures AND individual capability and talent that will get us a functioning forward line for Petty and, especially, JVR to adequately develop in.

But it’s all hope. Need to see it.

It's called the game plan, forward line is stagnant as the ball comes in.

[beelzebub 23,383]

9 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

Great analysis by George from the outer in his article " nought from zero".

I thought the Swans were very adroit in flooding our fwd line as well.

It was an absolute sea of red, white and blue.

Mason Cox would have been proud.

 

I too am.of the opinion if any have not read George's match report that they do so.

Nails it ( as he often does )

A big take away from it is that old chestnut...the coaching.

In short ol Horse tore Goody a new one.

Sydney's list isnt that marvellous...not really...   but they were choreographed brilliantly to suit the day and locale..

We did the polar opposite. 

We have a good list.... gunna go to waste if we don't get our act together.

Again....kudos George 

[Queanbeyan Demon 6,865]

21 hours ago, ignition. said:

At the end of last season I made a thread 'Operation Key Forward'. We failed to acquire and generate the much-needed talent and depth we desperately require up there. Last night it showed.

You say we failed @ignition.. Be specific. What did we fail at exactly? Not getting a King? Not getting Curnow? Not getting one of the Footscray guys? What exactly did we fail at?

[leave it to deever 17,517]

Only a compete Pies demolition will help cancel our loss against Sydney.

[Roost it far 8,581]

7 hours ago, Nascent said:

 

Agreed. Can't see us acquiring an established key forward star as much as we'd like one.

At the end of the year we are likely to have significant cash with Brayshaw, B Brown, T-Mac, Melksham with ? Over J Smith, Hunter, Tomlinson (likely to stay on given our key position depth issues?) and Laurie. Add in expanded cap space and we should have well over $1mil. That's not including a potential trade request from Petty or any other surprise contracted player along the way.

However, given the evident holes on the list we should really go about acquiring multiple established mid tier players to compliment our stars.

McRae shipped out Grundy to facilitate the influx of Bobby Hill, McStay, Tom Mitchell and Frampton. That won them the flag the following year.

We, hopefully without losing a core 22 player, need to utilise our cap to attack the trade and FA period in a similar fashion.

In no particular order we need a Ruck, Mid, Medium defender, Key Forward as well as potentially insurance for life after May.

They also had belief, determination and hunger banged into them.

[Nascent 9,283]

1 minute ago, Roost it far said:

They also had belief, determination and hunger banged into them.

Indeed. But they didn't have that in 2021 when they finished 17th. They also traded away the rights to Finn Callaghan after moving on their first round pick the year before. That would have caused an absolute meltdown here.

Things can change quickly if you have a good system and star players to work around. Can we sort our system out? Time will tell.