POSTGAME: Rd 04 vs West Coast

[Sir Why You Little 36,621]

6 minutes ago, demon3165 said:

You call what I say about Viney a rugby player and lack of footy IQ Vitriol, you really have led a sheltered life.

You haven’t answered anything. 
nobody agrees with you, you are disrespectful to an MFC Legend 

I am merely asking that you talk directly to Jack. 

[Macca 16,606]

5 minutes ago, A F said:

Gus is playing that role. He sweeps behind the stoppage (front of defensive contest), which is the role Salem and Bowey played in 2021.

Agreed, and yes, I'd like 2021 Salem, please.

Ha ha! 

Injuries cruelled him last season so my argument on his DE rating was a technical one and not entirely fair. 

Besides all that the whole discussion has swung around enormously from yesteryear

Back then we were trying to find at least a dozen AFL standard players to make the team competitive and now we're looking at every player in the team being a vital cog with zero weaknesses!!!

#NoClangers#NotAllowed

Edited April 10, 2023 by Macca

[Adam The God 29,335]

3 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

You haven’t answered anything. 
nobody agrees with you, you are disrespectful to an MFC Legend 

I am merely asking that you talk directly to Jack. 

3165 may be using flagrant language to describe Jack, but it's an opinion and 3165 doesn't have to be 'respectful'/share your opinion.

[Macca 16,606]

Viney's role doesn't require finesse.  He's a bull and when he is on (esp finals) he continually gets the ball going our way

I'm in agreement with others that he's even better when he dishes the ball off quickly when he is on.  Yesterday he was terrific and once he hits good form, we see it for at least a month

He's a matchwinner when in that beast-mode. 

So beast-mode and dish it off quickly but that style invites injuries.  We just need to keep him healthy

[Sir Why You Little 36,621]

4 minutes ago, A F said:

3165 may be using flagrant language to describe Jack, but it's an opinion and 3165 doesn't have to be 'respectful'/share your opinion.

Of course he doesn’t have to share my opinion.
But when he refers to our VC as a player with no IQ, then he had better have a good reason for saying it. 
I am yet to see anything except a hole being dug deeper and slagging off at me

The $100 stands

[MrFreeze 1,855]

1 hour ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but do we know why Tracc made this gesture?

https://www.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/news/serge-gnabry-explains-james-harden-cooking-celebration-bayern-munich-5175

Classic NBA celebration, petracca is cookin!!!

[demon3165 2,569]

30 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

You haven’t answered anything. 
nobody agrees with you, you are disrespectful to an MFC Legend 

I am merely asking that you talk directly to Jack. 

Not worried if people agree with me, they are my opinions and I don't need people to agree with me to be right or wrong that why it's called a forum.

2. He is not a legend

3. Why would I talk to Jack he is not going to agree with me is he?

[Demonised 1,306]

1 hour ago, bush demon said:

"Achilles Jones is discovered on his lonely farm near Manangatang kicking wheatbags around, as it saves him dragging them. The talent scout of the Galahs, a struggling AFL football team, plucks him from obscurity and soon he is kicking footballs and rocketing the team to victory in the Grand Final."

And The Big Men Fly!

[FlashInThePan 1,893]

2 hours ago, A F said:

I love our recruiting, but our absolute elite players aside from Max were top 5 picks in their draft year (Clarry and Trac) or in trade form (Lever and May).

Take Clarry and Trac out of our midfield and we're not a top 8 team.

This is usually how it works and why eventually the fork in the road comes. Do you keep topping up with FAs or do you bottom out and go back for the elite top end talent?

Luckily we don’t need to bottom out, we just need Freo to bottom out for us. I am death riding them with all my heart, I may even buy myself a feathered cap.😁

[rpfc 28,047]

Well I haven’t said this much in my time but I agree with WYL...

Only a Demons fan would argue that, with a team like this, after a flag, with a player like Viney, who sets fear into the hearts of opposition players, who our own Clayton Oliver is thankful he doesn’t have to play against… only a Demons fan would troll him (or her) self with spurious thoughts about the talent and capability of Jack “I lectured my teammates after my debut game” Viney.

It’s laughable and lamentable.

[Demon Dynasty 17,091]

1 hour ago, Macca said:

He is not turning the ball over anywhere near as much as what you believe

If it happens once or twice that doesn't equal a lot of times

Go back and watch yesterday's game and point out all his errors.  But do the same with every player. Don't isolate it all down to one player like others tend to do on this site

Oliver & Petracca turn the ball over all the time in their endeavour to play attacking football. 

Would you be happy for Brayshaw to kick the ball backwards so as not to make an error?  Serious question

It's football AF, no risk, no reward

His DE Rating this year is sitting at about 84% overall.  That's elite

We must get watching different games as what you see, I can't see

 

His turnover average (so far) is down 35% on last season's average.

Meters gained (-40%) & inside 50s (-66%) also substantially down though.  Not a big clearance role/player but marginally down here also (-24%)

Slight change of role or maybe going lateral / backwards a bit more?

FWIW... tackles (+8%) and score involvements (+11%) marginally up.  Whatever that means.

[loges 6,767]

Re Salem, last year when he came back he was very tentative imo, needs not only to get fit but also has to regain confidence.

[dazzledavey36 52,735]

2 minutes ago, loges said:

Re Salem, last year when he came back he was very tentative imo, needs not only to get fit but also has to regain confidence.

I'd give him a good month at Casey to really build himself up again.

Last year we rushed him him and he was never himself. 

[DeeSpencer 24,701]

1 hour ago, Macca said:

He is not turning the ball over anywhere near as much as what you believe

If it happens once or twice that doesn't equal a lot of times

Go back and watch yesterday's game and point out all his errors.  But do the same with every player. Don't isolate it all down to one player like others tend to do on this site

Oliver & Petracca turn the ball over all the time in their endeavour to play attacking football. 

Would you be happy for Brayshaw to kick the ball backwards so as not to make an error?  Serious question

It's football AF, no risk, no reward

His DE Rating this year is sitting at about 84% overall.  That's elite

We must get watching different games as what you see, I can't see

 

His kicking has been ok and handballing generally sharp, but he provides very little run and carry. Run opens up angles that then creates quick ball movement.

The bigger issue with him playing half back is his lazy positioning and kick chasing. He lets his man be the outlet all the time and will lose track of an opponent. If the pressure is good then he can get intercepts, but fast pace teams will just take the leg rope he gives opponents and use it. Brisbane’s use of Zorko on him was a massacre.

Salem at full fitness has the pace and smarts to know when to push up to cut off a kick rather than constantly be dropping back. Bowey, McVee, Rivers all have similar natural flanker attributes, they can run the lines and can zone off and close on an opponent.

If we’re ever lucky enough to be fully healthy I expect Gus to be competing for a wing/mid role or even to be an excellent sub.

[layzie 32,801]

1 hour ago, bush demon said:

Is that Achilles Jones from Manangatang, per chance?

For those wishing to stroll down memory lane:

"Achilles Jones is discovered on his lonely farm near Manangatang kicking wheatbags around, as it saves him dragging them. The talent scout of the Galahs, a struggling AFL football team, plucks him from obscurity and soon he is kicking footballs and rocketing the team to victory in the Grand Final."

Oh yeah can't beat those Manangatang thirds. We'll just wait for the striking talent to come out of there yet again.

But we can't be bush lawyers about this Bush Demon, not when there's this kind of money involved!

[Macca 16,606]

25 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

His turnover average (so far) is down 35% on last season's average.

Meters gained (-40%) & inside 50s (-66%) also substantially down though.  Not a big clearance role/player but marginally down here also (-24%)

Slight change of role or maybe going lateral / backwards a bit more?

FWIW... tackles (+8%) and score involvements (+11%) marginally up.  Whatever that means.

He is at the back of the stoppages in a fail-safe role.  A trouble-shooter positionally where the ball is often kicked away from where he is (by the opposition) Almost a decoy role at high half-back

When obtaining the ball he is quickly dishing off short (either diagonally or forward) to a player who can advance the ball longer.  And his efficiency is first rate despite the utterings from the naysayers

Remember 2021 when he copped no end of criticism?  It stopped when it was calmly pointed out about his role as a defensive wingman

By the time we got to the GF everyone could see what his role was .... that 3rd quarter was a beauty!

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Macca

[monoccular 17,315]

3 hours ago, Macca said:

For those questioning Brayshaw do a re-think

He's being used in a fail-safe role a kick behind the play in a clean-up role. In defence not on the ball.

16 possessions yesterday and not one clanger.  Repelled a lot of WC forward forays

He in fact used the ball very well when he got it and it wasn't his fault that he didn't have that many opportunities.  He wasn't needed much due to West Coast being so poor

He's played well all year in that role and the coaching staff wouldn't be expecting a stack of possessions

Still it seems that some count disposals and judge players by that alone.  Rôles are as important as raw numbers.  Gus has been gap filling in defence and does it well.

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

hey i don't make the rules or the interpretations.

besides, i only pointed out the rules don't even define goal/point lines precisely

anyway if you include padding it was touched, if you don't it was a goal. And you also have to take into account those situations where the ball has the faintest of touches on the padding, sometimes only picked up on the audio graph. it has been my observation over the last few years that they do include the padding when determining "over the line" whether the official rules say so or not

I believe most would agree that the VR was absurdly rushed in this case. Probably the fastest one in history because whoever the anonymous adjudicator wanted to get home or down for a drink.

I will be furious if it were to cost us a ladder spot on percentage (though a game or two clear on top would make that irrelevant 😁) or cost Frittata the Coleman.

1 hour ago, Macca said:

Salem's DE rating wouldn't be all that flash if we use his year last season as an example.  But often the DE Rating is a furphy if looked at closer

Anyway, when Salem becomes available both he and Brayshaw will play. 

And how on Earth is a backman kicking to a contest further afield somehow a mistake anyway? 

If there is no free target there is no other choice but to kick to that contest (you can't head for the boundary - pinged)

And the boffin's determine that the player kicking the ball is at fault if the contest is won by the opposition.  It's the fault of the forward not the player who kicks the ball

If the ball is kicked forward to a contest, by default, the player in the contest has called for the ball and has an obligation to win the ball (he has already failed to create separation)

"You called for it, you get it"

So a clanger applied to the player delivering the kick is just plain wrong

 

Mind you, the absurdly ruled  deliberate OOB by Gus in the dying minute of R 23 2022 turned out to be a blessing in disguise.  

[picket fence 16,655]

On 4/9/2023 at 8:10 PM, layzie said:

Trent Rivers has gone beast mode

So has Tom Sparrow..... Oh and have I mentioned Judd Mc Veee??

Edited April 10, 2023 by picket fence

[Macca 16,606]

1 minute ago, DeeSpencer said:

His kicking has been ok and handballing generally sharp, but he provides very little run and carry. Run opens up angles that then creates quick ball movement.

The bigger issue with him playing half back is his lazy positioning and kick chasing. He lets his man be the outlet all the time and will lose track of an opponent. If the pressure is good then he can get intercepts, but fast pace teams will just take the leg rope he gives opponents and use it. Brisbane’s use of Zorko on him was a massacre.

Salem at full fitness has the pace and smarts to know when to push up to cut off a kick rather than constantly be dropping back. Bowey, McVee, Rivers all have similar natural flanker attributes, they can run the lines and can zone off and close on an opponent.

If we’re ever lucky enough to be fully healthy I expect Gus to be competing for a wing/mid role or even to be an excellent sub.

You don't understand his role in the team.  He's not in the team for the run and carry ... not for the particular role we are asking him to play right now

He's very adaptable though so his role could change as early as next week

Read my post above in response to Demon Dynasty's post. 

And if you are going to constantly criticise him you have an obligation to point out his good play as well

So how about you evaluate in a fair manner

[Demon Dynasty 17,091]

48 minutes ago, loges said:

Re Salem, last year when he came back he was very tentative imo, needs not only to get fit but also has to regain confidence.

Tentative in a physical contact/tackling sense maybe?  Tackle average down 40% on 2021 (3.68 to 2.19)

Looking at meters gained (average) he was up a massive 80% on 2021 though with 410 (2022) vs 227 (2021).

Extra meters gained might also be a product of role being asked and/or ground position (kick ins from the square/lateral kicks around the back)?

Seemed to play in the defensive 50 a fair bit more during 2022 and potentially a fair degree less down the attacking end..

Average Rebounds

2021   0.36

2022  5.57

Inside 50s

2021  2.59

2022  2.14

Goals (accuracy might have been off though...would need to check shots at goal!)

2021  1.59

2022  0.10

Edited April 10, 2023 by Demon Dynasty

[Macca 16,606]

2 minutes ago, monoccular said:

Mind you, the absurdly ruled deliberate OOB by Gus in the dying minute of R 23 2022 turned out to be a blessing in disguise.  

I have a different take on the boot off the ground by Gus.  I believe he knew what he was doing and took the risk of 1 or 2 things eventuating

Either a boundary throw in or them being hemmed in the back pocket unable to switch play to the fat side

A calculated risk that ended up paying off big time.  There were about 4 sliding-door moments within 30 seconds, monoccular!!

But Brayshaw knew what he was doing I have no doubt.  He's a quick thinker under pressure

[fr_ap 2,430]

Why are you all at each others throats? 

Its literally a discussion forum.

Viney isn't perfect but I'd rather have him than play against him. That said, it's also not heresy to question his spot and worth to the team, same as any other player in the side. 

Just chill - we are sitting in a good spot, playing well but not too well, whilst a number of our apparent competitors have had spluttering starts. Our splutter will come....enjoy the footy while we are winning and stop ripping into each other about selections you can't influence in any case 

Edited April 10, 2023 by fr_ap

[layzie 32,801]

16 minutes ago, picket fence said:

So has Tom Sparrow..... Oh and have I mentioned Judd Mc Veee??

Sparrow has gone bird flight mode and McVee into King V mode.

[layzie 32,801]

7 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

Why are you all at each others throats? 

Its literally a discussion forum.

Viney isn't perfect but I'd rather have him than play against him. That said, it's also not heresy to question his spot and worth to the team, same as any other player in the side. 

Just chill - we are sitting in a good spot, playing well but not too well, whilst a number of our apparent competitors have had spluttering starts. Our splutter will come....enjoy the footy while we are winning and stop ripping into each other about selections you can't influence in any case 

I just don't know where it said in the book that Viney had to be the smartest IQ footballer in the league. I liked his game yesterday 

[Macca 16,606]

1 minute ago, layzie said:

Sparrow has gone bird flight mode and McVee into King V mode.

It's interesting with McVee and what his role is.  Do what you do, do well ... seems to be the mantra

He's a dasher with a very nice side step and he hits targets.  That's his game

So the MC identify that and he plays that exact role.  Far different to Gus' role.  The yin and the yan.  Different again to Lever's role and Bowey provides a link with excellent skills