POSTGAME: Rd 13 vs Collingwood

[Boots and all 1,000]

2 hours ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

The game was lost on turnover, as most are. We overcooked handballs through the middle and we’re completely burnt the other way. We had no time to set any sort of defensive zone. Miochek murdered us out the back and on the lead. 

...May's opponont...and losing Disco from an already weakened backline hurt us badly today. Brayshaw was brilliant and Salem was serviceable but that was about it for the backs. I haven’t seen Lever so sloppy and error riddled as he was today, just terribly out of form.

[Maldonboy38 6,435]

It took  3hours to get home, and a bit of time to think. Lots to think about. Great game of footy for 3 quarters.

We are low on confidence for some reason, our skill level is 2019-ish, and some basics of our game plan are non existent.

Kicking inside F50 was as bad as it has ever been. Although BBB kept running under the ball or dropping marks that he got clear 2 hands onto, he had 2-3 players flying against him most of the night. Fritsch was given a footy lesson and our small forwards have been poor most of the year. Delivery by Viney, ANB, Trac & Sparrow is frankly embarrassing. Fortunately Jordon and Brayshaw are their to mop up. 

I can't remember a single 45 degree kick into the corridor that took a risk. There might have been 1 or 2 but I can't remember them. Salem and Bowey usually star at this but kudos to the Pies who shut that avenue completely.

ANB and Sparrow have had enough chances. Currently both are momentum killers and liabilities. Cannot believe their fumbles, lack of awareness and constant turning back into trouble. Kozzie too but probably still adds an element that no-one else can replace.

Lever is having a foul year. I don't know what has happened, but his kicking and decision making make Ben Holland look effective. 

Difficult to watch.

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

4 minutes ago, david_neitz_is_my_dad said:

After the Jackson goal we gain possession in the middle but then proceed to butcher it instead of attacking from a centre clearance.

Winning center clearances would bring Brown and Fritsch into the game so much (i.e the grand final)

With audio you can hear Oliver let out his frustration after this play.

 

 

The mistake was that long loopy handball from Oliver to Sparrow. 2nd mistake was Sparrow handballing it to Gawn. 3rd mistake was Gawn not being able to hand ball through one player. I mean you cannot make this crap up.

Oliver had to turn and break through the traffic  or give it to Viney on the inside.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,468]

5 minutes ago, CYB said:

The mistake was that long loopy handball from Oliver to Sparrow. 2nd mistake was Sparrow handballing it to Gawn. 3rd mistake was Gawn not being able to hand ball through one player. I mean you cannot make this crap up.

Oliver had to turn and break through the traffic  or give it to Viney on the inside.

Plenty of times we got first use in the middle and did nothing with it. Fix that up and we win the game.

[Beetle 4,739]

1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Plenty of times we got first use in the middle and did nothing with it. Fix that up and we win the game.

Literally just said to a mate while we have lots of problems, most of them (imho) are easily fixed.

[Boots and all 1,000]

5 minutes ago, Maldonboy38 said:

It took  3hours to get home, and a bit of time to think. Lots to think about. Great game of footy for 3 quarters.

We are low on confidence for some reason, our skill level is 2019-ish, and some basics of our game plan are non existent.

Kicking inside F50 was as bad as it has ever been. Although BBB kept running under the ball or dropping marks that he got clear 2 hands onto, he had 2-3 players flying against him most of the night. Fritsch was given a footy lesson and our small forwards have been poor most of the year. Delivery by Viney, ANB, Trac & Sparrow is frankly embarrassing. Fortunately Jordon and Brayshaw are their to mop up. 

I can't remember a single 45 degree kick into the corridor that took a risk. There might have been 1 or 2 but I can't remember them. Salem and Bowey usually star at this but kudos to the Pies who shut that avenue completely.

ANB and Sparrow have had enough chances. Currently both are momentum killers and liabilities. Cannot believe their fumbles, lack of awareness and constant turning back into trouble. Kozzie too but probably still adds an element that no-one else can replace.

Lever is having a foul year. I don't know what has happened, but his kicking and decision making make Ben Holland look effective. 

Difficult to watch.

The thing that I'm not seeing this year which was a key element of last year is a zoning defence. Last year we were almost impenetrable and could absorb attack after attack without breaking a sweat...so has the competition worked us out or has our defensive structure faltered?

[dazzledavey36 56,347]

17 minutes ago, david_neitz_is_my_dad said:

After the Jackson goal we gain possession in the middle but then proceed to butcher it instead of attacking from a centre clearance.

Winning center clearances would bring Brown and Fritsch into the game so much (i.e the grand final)

With audio you can hear Oliver let out his frustration after this play.

 

 

Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw this unfold at such crucial stage of the game..

[Kick_It_To_Pickett 3,293]

15 minutes ago, leucopogon said:

My take is that its not gun key forwards we need, but rather decent ball users in the midfield. Let's face it, the guys who are delivering most of the inside 50s are Oliver, Viney, Trac, Nibbler, Langdon, Spargo, Harmes, Sparrow, Jordon the rucks and often BBB. Out of those the only decent kick is Spargo, sometimes Trac and Jordon. The rest are very average, especially when under any kind of pressure. It sucks that our best ball users are either backmen (Salem & May) or forwards (Fritsch & Spargo). 

Petracca is really starting to annoy me with his lack of defensive efforts. Clarry could be better at this too, but you can't have it all. I think we're going to have to think about a more balanced combination in the guts. Having Clarry and Trac in there is weighted too heavily towards offence. I would have one or the other at every centre stoppage but not both. Maybe Harmes needs to see more centre minutes. He used to be awesome at negating  the opposition's best mid, and by god, we could sure use some negating.

Funny you mention Spargo. He is playing the high half forward role. He found a heap of it on the flank. The issue with him is that while his kicking is decent, it has absolutely no elevation at all and struggles to cover 30 metres. He is not the player I really want deliver the ball inside fifty. Like others, I’d prefer him at the feet of the talls. 
 

salem is really undercooked. He is having zero impact atm. Perhaps we could get him forward and Rivers back. 
 

Bowey needs a spell in the Magoos. Starting to look tired and uncertain

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,468]

31 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The biggest thing I take from that is they had a 17 day break during their bye! We have a 9 day break before being sent all over Australia for a month or so.

Just had a look and boy have we been dealt a hand with the fixturing this year. A "bye" where we play on a Monday and then a Thursday so really no break at all followed by a 9 day break travelling interstate and then playing the Cats off a 5 day break at KP. I mean seriously who are the nuffies at the AFL creating the fixture? Do they still do the pre-finals bye? I reckon we'll need it this year.

[Redlagged 813]

4 minutes ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

Funny you mention Spargo. He is playing the high half forward role. He found a heap of it on the flank. The issue with him is that while his kicking is decent, it has absolutely no elevation at all and struggles to cover 30 metres. He is not the player I really want deliver the ball inside fifty. Like others, I’d prefer him at the feet of the talls. 
 

salem is really undercooked. He is having zero impact atm. Perhaps we could get him forward and Rivers back. 
 

Bowey needs a spell in the Magoos. Starting to look tired and uncertain

 

 

 

 

 

Salem forward may not be such a bad idea. Need a bit of skill down there and we need to try something different. The team is tired and predictable and mediocre.

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,831]

One other thing some astute minds have seemed to have missed is didn't the lads officially start a month later than the rest of the other non final teams?

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

15 minutes ago, Boots and all said:

The thing that I'm not seeing this year which was a key element of last year is a zoning defence. Last year we were almost impenetrable and could absorb attack after attack without breaking a sweat...so has the competition worked us out or has our defensive structure faltered?

Not necessarily. It’s scores from turn over and speed on the ball with high risk taking. 
 

This was the Swans effort repeated. Dockers was hard to say given the May injury and Trac illness but they don’t play this brand of footy - they are more like us. 
 

But mostly it is pressure, no matter how solid your back six when you don’t have enough pressure on the ball, bad things will always happen. 

[Demon Dynasty 17,167]

29 minutes ago, CYB said:

The mistake was that long loopy handball from Oliver to Sparrow. 2nd mistake was Sparrow handballing it to Gawn. 3rd mistake was Gawn not being able to hand ball through one player. I mean you cannot make this crap up.

Oliver had to turn and break through the traffic  or give it to Viney on the inside.

That's how i saw it from behind the play also.  Clarry had a chance to burst and kick it forward off a few steps but went the suicide handball over the top to a stationary Sparrow inviting more pressure and the Pies just swarmed.

They're gonna have to sort out this crap in the middle pretty quickly if we're to start winning games against the top 8 again from here.  Footy's a really tough game at most levels and obviously super tough at this level but as the experts often say, might be time to get back to the basics.

We look a much better team when Clarry's bursting out of congestion and kicking long i reckon.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Demon Dynasty

[dazzledavey36 56,347]

7 minutes ago, YesitwasaWin4theAges said:

One other thing some astute minds have seemed to have missed is didn't the lads officially start a month later than the rest of the other non final teams?

So? It literally has no bearing in a round about way.

This never seemed to affect Richmond and Hawthorn when they won flags each year.

The amount t of excuses thrown up on here is seriously laughable. 

[Willmoy1947 4,261]

45 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

The biggest thing I take from that is they had a 17 day break during their bye! We have a 9 day break before being sent all over Australia for a month or so.

That's the other thing, the draw, what a God forsaken coke up of a draw that is. We go everywhere and we get nowhere. I'm not happy

[Redlagged 813]

4 minutes ago, willmoy said:

That's the other thing, the draw, what a God forsaken coke up of a draw that is. We go everywhere and we get nowhere. I'm not happy

Going on tour may not be such a bad thing. They've been poor at home for weeks. The capitulation today was terrible. Sorry, but that was not the performance of a top club or a genuine contender. 

[Supreme_Demon 4,144]

Losing to the scum in Collingwood always angers me more than anything.

Their vile supporters think the "still time to go to the snow" insult is going to work. 🙄

Anyway, we are definitely out of form and the bye will hopefully be a good chance to refresh and reset for the 2nd half of the season.

[Mickey 4,777]

We just need our Bobby Boucher aka Steven May back...

[Superunknown 4,246]

4 minutes ago, Supreme_Demon said:

Losing to the scum in Collingwood always angers me more than anything.

Their vile supporters think the "still time to go to the snow" insult is going to work. 🙄

Anyway, we are definitely out of form and the bye will hopefully be a good chance to refresh and reset for the 2nd half of the season.

Let’s be kind to pies supporters

They’re too busy making ends meet for false teeth and magazines about the snow 

[Kick_It_To_Pickett 3,293]

If we play like we did today after the bye, we will be lucky to win 2 games. That’s not MFCSS, that’s reality. It’s all quality opposition and the ****b we dished up today won’t cut it. The fringe players need to be cut. We need to get the back six looking like last year. Brayshaw to the wing with Langdon. JJ is playing well, but it’s not better than the Langdon Brayshaw combo. Can JJ play a midfield role in place of Sparrow, who has regressed. Get Dunstan in as the other bull. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,468]

6 minutes ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

If we play like we did today after the bye, we will be lucky to win 2 games. That’s not MFCSS, that’s reality. It’s all quality opposition and the ****b we dished up today won’t cut it. The fringe players need to be cut. We need to get the back six looking like last year. Brayshaw to the wing with Langdon. JJ is playing well, but it’s not better than the Langdon Brayshaw combo. Can JJ play a midfield role in place of Sparrow, who has regressed. Get Dunstan in as the other bull. 

Yeah agree here - Brayshaw to the wing helps with our delivery going forward. Jordon currently is an upgrade on Sparrow in the middle. Rivers back in.

[Kick_It_To_Pickett 3,293]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Yeah agree here - Brayshaw to the wing helps with our delivery going forward. Jordon currently is an upgrade on Sparrow in the middle. Rivers back in.

We have made too many changes to a winning formula. Yeah we had to try and reinvent ourselves I guess, but why fix what was already working. Bowey is the other one I’d be looking at replacing. Fallen back a bit. We need a small forward who can put together 4 quarters, not just five minutes.

[Demon Dynasty 17,167]

37 minutes ago, CYB said:

Not necessarily. It’s scores from turn over and speed on the ball with high risk taking. 
 

This was the Swans effort repeated. Dockers was hard to say given the May injury and Trac illness but they don’t play this brand of footy - they are more like us. 
 

But mostly it is pressure, no matter how solid your back six when you don’t have enough pressure on the ball, bad things will always happen. 

Whatever we are attempting with that zone it's the most frustrating thing about our team defence for me.

We fold back way too deep at kick ins i reckon, giving the opp far too much time and space in their defensive 50.  Giving up 1/3rd of the ground before you start to try and close down the gaps and space on your opponents is pretty much asking for the opp to kick your [censored] if they have high level kicking skills and willing to work hard on their leads as they move the ball (in most cases) with relative ease up the field.  Often choosing the time and place from which to launch pretty deep entries into our 50 or just run the ball in.

To just keep playing this strat throughout the game when it obviously isn't working?  No wonder we are 17th in pressure/tackle strats this season vs No.1 last year.  Maybe it's by design and we are conserving ourselves for a big push in the second half of the season?  If that's the case then i'm happy to stick a sock in it in the realisation (again) that i know very little about strats and game styles/methods and managing player loads etc.

But after watching three top 8 teams pick us apart by waltzing the ball out of D50 and down the field from about quarter time to over-run us with relative ease, i have to say this very loose fold back zone (or whatever it's technical name might be) is absolutely killing any chance of staying in the game long enough to win (even occasionally) against the better in form teams.

I understand many teams play this style but when i watch some of the rated clubs i can't say i notice them staying so far 'off' there opponent as they bring it out of their D50 (not for as long as we seem to do this anyway).  The gaps are a little closer and they work harder to push up into the face of the opponent as quickly as possible to 'Stand' the mark and make it as hard as possible for them (within the 8 seconds they supposedly have to dispose) to hit up their next player on a lead or in space.

So then you have to ask.... are we conserving ourselves for the back half or are we deliberately not closing the space down early and instead backing our usual 'trusty' defence to intercept and/or force a turnover before the ball gets near the 30 meter hot spots?

Edited June 13, 2022 by Demon Dynasty

[Kick_It_To_Pickett 3,293]

11 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Whatever we are attempting with that zone it's the most frustrating thing about our team defence for me.

We fold back way too deep at kick ins i reckon, giving the opp far too much time and space in their defensive 50.  Giving up 1/3rd of the ground before you start to try and close down the gaps and space on your opponents is pretty much asking for the opp to kick your [censored] if they have high level kicking skills and willing to work hard on their leads as they move the ball (in most cases) with relative ease up the field.  Often choosing the time and place from which to launch pretty deep entries into our 50 or just run the ball in.

To just keep playing this strat throughout the game when it obviously isn't working?  No wonder we are 17th in pressure/tackle strats this season vs No.1 last year.  Maybe it's by design and we are conserving ourselves for a big push in the second half of the season?  If that's the case then i'm happy to stick a sock in it in the realisation (again) that i know very little about strats and game styles/methods and managing player loads etc.

But after watching three top 8 teams pick us apart by waltzing the ball out of D50 and down the field from about quarter time to over-run us with relative ease, i have to say this very loose fold back zone (or whatever it's technical name might be) is absolutely killing any chance of staying in the game long enough to win (even occasionally) against the better in form teams.

I understand many teams play this style but when i watch some of the rated clubs i can't say i notice them staying so far 'off' there opponent as the bring it out of their D50.  The gaps are a little closer and they work harder to push up into the face of the opponent to 'Stand' the mark and make it as hard as possible for them (within the 8 seconds they supposedly have to dispose) to hit up the next opponent.

So then you have to ask.... are we conserving ourselves for the back half or are we deliberately not closing the space down early and instead backing our usual 'trusty' defence to intercept and/or force a turnover before the ball gets near the 30 meter hot spots?

No, we are not ‘conserving ourselves’ in games. 

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

13 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Whatever we are attempting with that zone it's the most frustrating thing about our team defence for me.

We fold back way too deep at kick ins i reckon, giving the opp far too much time and space in their defensive 50.  Giving up 1/3rd of the ground before you start to try and close down the gaps and space on your opponents is pretty much asking for the opp to kick your [censored] if they have high level kicking skills and willing to work hard on their leads as they move the ball (in most cases) with relative ease up the field.  Often choosing the time and place from which to launch pretty deep entries into our 50 or just run the ball in.

To just keep playing this strat throughout the game when it obviously isn't working?  No wonder we are 17th in pressure/tackle strats this season vs No.1 last year.  Maybe it's by design and we are conserving ourselves for a big push in the second half of the season?  If that's the case then i'm happy to stick a sock in it in the realisation (again) that i know very little about strats and game styles/methods and managing player loads etc.

But after watching three top 8 teams pick us apart by waltzing the ball out of D50 and down the field from about quarter time to over-run us with relative ease, i have to say this very loose fold back zone (or whatever it's technical name might be) is absolutely killing any chance of staying in the game long enough to win (even occasionally) against the better in form teams.

I understand many teams play this style but when i watch some of the rated clubs i can't say i notice them staying so far 'off' there opponent as they bring it out of their D50 (not for as long as we seem to do this anyway).  The gaps are a little closer and they work harder to push up into the face of the opponent as quickly as possible to 'Stand' the mark and make it as hard as possible for them (within the 8 seconds they supposedly have to dispose) to hit up their next player on a lead or in space.

So then you have to ask.... are we conserving ourselves for the back half or are we deliberately not closing the space down early and instead backing our usual 'trusty' defence to intercept and/or force a turnover before the ball gets near the 30 meter hot spots?

One of the hallmarks and foundations of our game plan is pressure on the ball carrier and around the ground. If that’s not firing then the rest will fall apart. But similarly, you fix the pressure and you’ll wonder how we lost the past 3 games. 
 

Funny listening to ANB that we were not gassed in the last quarter and it was more about wrestling back momentum.