POSTGAME: Rd 13 vs Collingwood

[Winners at last 4,725]

Hmm, has anyone considered we may be loading?   🤔

[Superunknown 3,311]

8 minutes ago, Winners at last said:

Hmm, has anyone considered we may be loading?   🤔

In cycling we can do in season periodisation

why not football 

 

[binman 37,991]

37 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

At the moment we've only lost 3 games - Therefore the loading narrative can be maintained for now.  Loose a few more and the theory starts to unpick itself. 

Do you mean like last year?

- After the bye we very average in our scrappy 11 point win against the bombers in round 15

- were woeful and couldn't run past our shadow in our loss to the giants in round 16

- as Max said post game, we freshened up for the Port game, and won in round 17

- we were woeful and flat in our draw against the Hawks in round 18

- then got rolled by the dogs in round 19

So, from round 13 to round 19 we went three losses, one draw and two wins. 

From that point we caught fire and were clearly the fittest side in the competition for the remainder of the season and didn't lose anorher game

If you ask me, the 'loading narrative' held up pretty well.

But I guess you'd argue the opposite.

And perhaps put our remarkable form turn around to magic fairy dust and dumb luck. 

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by binman

[DemonWA 3,434]

20 minutes ago, binman said:

 

If you ask me, the 'loading narrative' held up pretty well.

But I guess you'd argue the opposite.

And perhaps put our remarkable form turn around to magic fairy dust and dumb luck. 

 

We won 17 games last year and the flag. The loading narrative has been applied in hindsight so will always hold up.

Watching the 3 consecutive losses it's pretty clear to me that we have bigger issues than fresh legs and tired players. 

How many games do you have us winning from here?

 

[binman 37,991]

29 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

We won 17 games last year and the flag. The loading narrative has been applied in hindsight so will always hold up.

How many games do you have us winning from here?

 

That makes no sense at all.

But, whatever. As I have posted before,  time won't tell for you because your mind is made up.

I think we will win seven more home and away games.

And win all three finals we play in, including of course, a back to back flag.

And just like last year, I'll wait to the odds stop drifting (I backed us straight after our loss to the dogs in round 19) and I'll load up on us big time to win the flag.

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by binman

[SPC 2,791]

Still flat… 

[DemonWA 3,434]

21 minutes ago, binman said:

That makes no sense at all.

But, whatever. As I have posted before,  time won't tell for you because your mind is made up.

I think we will win seven more home and away games.

And win all three finals we play in, including of course, a back to back flag.

And just like last year, I'll wait to the odds stop drifting (I backed us straight after our loss to the dogs in round 19) and I'll load up on us big time to win the flag.

 

I admire your confidence 

[Vipercrunch 2,804]

55 minutes ago, binman said:

 

And perhaps put our remarkable form turn around to magic fairy dust and dumb luck. 

 

I prefer the good old "effort" reason.  If only the players just tried harder it will all work out.

[dazzledavey36 48,715]

13 minutes ago, binman said:

That makes no sense at all.

But, whatever. As I have posted before,  time won't tell for you because your mind is made up.

I think we will win seven more home and away games.

And win all three finals we play in, including of course, a back to back flag.

And just like last year, I'll wait to the odds stop drifting (I backed us straight after our loss to the dogs in round 19) and I'll load up on us big time to win the flag.

 

I think there is far bigger concerns then just the whole 'loading' narrative.

My reasoning is we are more banged up this year then last. This time last year we had majority of our playing squad who hadn't missed games at all going into the bye.

This year we've had certain players either missed through injury, illness or form and also some playing incredibly sore and looks like it's about to continue on with Gawn, Petty and the likes. All Australian players like Lever, Petracca, Salem are also out of form and are struggling post their injuries.

The other aspect is when we did lose to teams last year we didn't get out to 20 or 30 point lead and then just go to water like we have with teams this year. Our 2nd half's over the last 3 week is one of the worst in the competition. 

Our defence and pressure was still quiet high last year compared to this year where we are sitting 2nd last for pressure just ahead of Essendon. We barely dropped that low at all and to me this is a far bigger concern.

Lastly, teams have finally worked us out now. Hawthorn laid the blue print this year and now clubs have followed through. Clubs were still trying to work on how to stop our defensive half but now clubs are piecing through by using the corridor and speeding up the ball movement. 

We haven't adjusted at all for the last 3 weeks, in fact our coaches have been slow to react to this which is actually quiet considering I felt last year we reacted a lot quicker when challenged.

Loading is not even a factor for me right at this minute.  It might be for some but there are some warning signs that need to be rectified very quickly after the bye if we are to stay top 4 especially coming up against Brisbane and Geelong.

 

[binman 37,991]

17 minutes ago, DemonWA said:

I admire your confidence 

To he honest, my biggest concern is injury

We had a blessed run last season. I'd be guessing, but I doubt we lost more than 25 odd games (40 if you include tomo) to injury of our best 22.

If you include covid protocols and flu  we'd be close to 30 best 22 already.

To make matters worse, plenty of players seem to be carrying something and Max gets smashed every game.

We need a good run with injury from here.

Edited June 14, 2022 by binman

[Gawndy the Great 7,331]

1 hour ago, SPC said:

Still flat… 

Yep I can’t handle the demon bashing in the media as it makes my blood boil. So I have nothing to listen to or watch. 

[Dr. Gonzo 22,412]

Difference between last year and this year is we stood up in the big games just before the bye (Dogs and Lions).

We need a scalp this year, no better time than Thursday week to reassert ourselves and reclaim top position.

[binman 37,991]

12 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Difference between last year and this year is we stood up in the big games just before the bye (Dogs and Lions).

We need a scalp this year, no better time than Thursday week to reassert ourselves and reclaim top position.

Another big difference is that in all three losses we have key injuries during games.

And In each case it included key defenders.

Our defensive structures have fallen apart and we haven’t been able to stop intercept marks down back

This game was insane.

At one point, Turner, petty and gawn all came off injured within a few minutes. 

[Dr. Gonzo 22,412]

7 minutes ago, binman said:

Another big difference is that in all three losses we have key injuries during games.

And In each case it included key defenders.

Our defensive structures have fallen apart and we haven’t been able to stop intercept marks down back

This game was insane.

At one point, Turner, petty and gawn all came off injured within a few minutes. 

That's true, our defense has been smashed this year. No injuries are ever good but when it is impacting one area of the ground it makes it impossible to cover. Easiest way to cover defensive players is for the kids to step up and not let the ball down there and for the ruckman to drop back into the hole but with Gawn off the ground too that wasn't possible.

[dees189227 10,762]

Can you believe Collingwood lost to west coast at docklands? 

They have a pretty cruisy 3 games, gold coast, gws then nth. 

 

[WalkingCivilWar 31,404]

8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Difference between last year and this year is we stood up in the big games just before the bye (Dogs and Lions).

We need a scalp this year, no better time than Thursday week to reassert ourselves and reclaim top position.

… and I hope we get a lot of Dees ppl out to next week’s match since it’s the PINK LADY match. 

I’ve even swayed my breast-care nurse to become a Melbourne supporter, much to her (Essendon) husband’s chagrin. And it’s a beautiful thing. 🤣

[Lucifers Hero 37,006]

11 hours ago, binman said:

To he honest, my biggest concern is injury

We had a blessed run last season. I'd be guessing, but I doubt we lost more than 25 odd games (40 if you include tomo) to injury of our best 22.

If you include covid protocols and flu  we'd be close to 30 best 22 already.

To make matters worse, plenty of players seem to be carrying something and Max gets smashed every game.

We need a good run with injury from here.

 

9 hours ago, binman said:

Another big difference is that in all three losses we have key injuries during games.

And In each case it included key defenders.

Our defensive structures have fallen apart and we haven’t been able to stop intercept marks down back

This game was insane.

At one point, Turner, petty and gawn all came off injured within a few minutes. 

Some of us have been highlighting absent players, illness, in game injuries and opp tactics for weeks only for them to be given lip service with 'loading' proposed as the major cause of our recent performances. 

Glad to see they are now being given at least equal recognition with 'loading'.

[1964_2 2,357]

5 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

 

Some of us have been highlighting absent players, illness, in game injuries and opp tactics for weeks only for them to be given lip service with 'loading' proposed as the major cause of our recent performances. 

Glad to see they are now being given at least equal recognition with 'loading'.

I think the “loading” crew have acknowledged that it is one key factor amongst injuries, illness etc. 

The thing that the “loading” crew side of the fence has disputed, is that the players are on mass suddenly not fit, forgotten the game plan, can’t run out 2nd half’s anymore etc. 

In terms of oppo tactics, that becomes much easier when playing a team affected by the above. Ie Those oppo tactics won’t work, when we are back up and running again. 

[Vipercrunch 2,804]

9 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

I think the “loading” crew have acknowledged that it is one key factor amongst injuries, illness etc. 

The thing that the “loading” crew side of the fence has disputed, is that the players are on mass suddenly not fit, forgotten the game plan, can’t run out 2nd half’s anymore etc. 

In terms of oppo tactics, that becomes much easier when playing a team affected by the above. Ie Those oppo tactics won’t work, when we are back up and running again. 

Nailed it

[Lucifers Hero 37,006]

20 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

I think the “loading” crew have acknowledged that it is one key factor amongst injuries, illness etc. 

The thing that the “loading” crew side of the fence has disputed, is that the players are on mass suddenly not fit, forgotten the game plan, can’t run out 2nd half’s anymore etc. 

In terms of oppo tactics, that becomes much easier when playing a team affected by the above. Ie Those oppo tactics won’t work, when we are back up and running again. 

Other than lip service, the acknowledgement of other significant factors has been very recent - as in the last few days...

Has any poster said '... players are on mass suddenly not fit, etc etc...'  I don't think I have.  I thought Sydney 'out worked' us.  Without going back over old territory and example was they were miles ahead of us on tackles half way through the 2nd qtr.

I don't think Freo's and to a lesser extent Coll's tactics were successful enough to win the game.  Their in-game tactics worked when they exploited our loss of tall players.  Without those losses we most likely would have won both games with or without 'loading'.

It was Sydney's tactics that imv worked from the get go.  Only their poor kicking prevented the game being over at half time.  imv that is the only game in which we have actually been beaten by the opp rather than absentees and in-game injuries.  I reckon they would have won with or without 'loading'.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[titan_uranus 22,313]

As always on Demonland, people look for one answer or one issue, when the reality is that things are not that straightforward.

I'd suggest the following are all factors:

1. mid-game injuries which throw our balance - May, Petracca and Petty against Fremantle, then Turner, Gawn and Petty against Collingwood;
2. too many issues in our back half - no May, Petty playing half-injured, Lever, Hunt and Rivers all out of form, Hibberd and Salem working back into AFL-level fitness;
3. too many issues with our marking forwards - no TMac, B Brown out of form, M Brown not good enough, Weideman a mix of out of form and/or not good enough;
4. not enough pressure being applied in the forward half, giving our opponent the ease of moving the ball through the corridor;
5. too many turnovers, particularly when trying to deliver the ball inside 50.

We fixed some of the above mid-season last year (the last three, for example). But we didn't have to deal with the first two of those issues last year.

The two most disappointing features over the losses have been watching a 20+ point lead disappear, too easily, all three times, and our inability to cover our missing players. I'm disappointed that May not playing has been as impactful as it has been, and ditto TMac.

I believe we can turn around our issues, because we by and large faced the same issues last year and turned it around. But this time we don't have a soft fixture patch to get going like we did last year (we had GC, West Coast and Adelaide in Rounds 20-22, which led into the Geelong game and finals). We're going to have to find our form pretty quickly against top 8 sides because that's what our fixture presents us. It's not going to be easy, and right now I don't think you can criticise anyone who thinks top 4 is a longshot.

[demon3165 1,917]

9 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Difference between last year and this year is we stood up in the big games just before the bye (Dogs and Lions).

We need a scalp this year, no better time than Thursday week to reassert ourselves and reclaim top position.

The problem is our forward line, last year we played that contested football down the line sides have now woken up to us knowing we don't switch the pill, all our forwards are forced to go to pockets which brings their backline on mass into play because even if we get the ball out of the middle it is nearly always kicked to pockets.  BB is good at one on one and let's face it he got all his goals leading or one on one, there was several occasions last week where players were calling for the switch which would open the forward line but we never look for it we just go down the line.  

 

[titan_uranus 22,313]

On 6/13/2022 at 6:11 PM, rufus said:

This is why the talk of the 'great' culture the club has built (if they do say so themselves) in the off season was laughable. Still get done by teams that bring high levels of physicality. We look like we don't like the contest at times. Don't kid yourselves...Collingwood are a very ordinary football team who made a heap of errors today but beat us through pure willpower.

Its unfortunately looking like we might be a team that played a good last quarter in round 23 last year, beat a poor finals team in week one, and copped cats and dogs with gastro bugs and traversing the country...everything just fell into line. Thankfully the flag can't be taken off us even if we fluked it.

Also Petracca looks like maybe a one season wonder. So poor in the contest and so fumbly under any physical pressure (and sometimes no pressure). Also chases opponents in a manner that only Patrick Dangerfield would be proud of.

Be as pessimistic now as you want, be as critical of our poor form now as you want, but FFS don't give me this revisionist [censored]. I cannot stand it.

We didn't "fluke" the flag. For one, no one has ever fluked a flag and no one ever will, because it's not possible to do so. But regardless, we finished the H&A season 17-1-4 with a percentage of 130.8%, having beaten every side except Collingwood, including Port Adelaide (2nd) away, Geelong (3rd) away, Brisbane (4th) on neutral territory and the Dogs (5th) at Marvel, and we led the league in all relevant defensive metrics throughout the season.

We could hardly have been more dominant in 2021. Our finals campaign didn't come from nowhere, it came from a H&A season of hard work and capped off the year.

[Gawndy the Great 7,331]

4 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

As always on Demonland, people look for one answer or one issue, when the reality is that things are not that straightforward.

I'd suggest the following are all factors:

1. mid-game injuries which throw our balance - May, Petracca and Petty against Fremantle, then Turner, Gawn and Petty against Collingwood;
2. too many issues in our back half - no May, Petty playing half-injured, Lever, Hunt and Rivers all out of form, Hibberd and Salem working back into AFL-level fitness;
3. too many issues with our marking forwards - no TMac, B Brown out of form, M Brown not good enough, Weideman a mix of out of form and/or not good enough;
4. not enough pressure being applied in the forward half, giving our opponent the ease of moving the ball through the corridor;
5. too many turnovers, particularly when trying to deliver the ball inside 50.

We fixed some of the above mid-season last year (the last three, for example). But we didn't have to deal with the first two of those issues last year.

The two most disappointing features over the losses have been watching a 20+ point lead disappear, too easily, all three times, and our inability to cover our missing players. I'm disappointed that May not playing has been as impactful as it has been, and ditto TMac.

I believe we can turn around our issues, because we by and large faced the same issues last year and turned it around. But this time we don't have a soft fixture patch to get going like we did last year (we had GC, West Coast and Adelaide in Rounds 20-22, which led into the Geelong game and finals). We're going to have to find our form pretty quickly against top 8 sides because that's what our fixture presents us. It's not going to be easy, and right now I don't think you can criticise anyone who thinks top 4 is a longshot.

The one thing id add to this is that we dont know how other teams in our run home will fair over the next 9 weeks. Anything could happen that completely derails their season (think Bruce @ BullDogs;) just because their formline is hot now, doesnt mean they will be any good when we play them.  

This all goes to [censored] if Gawn has done his ankle though. I can live with a few weeks but a full syndesmosis will pretty much ruin our season. 

[1964_2 2,357]

54 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

As always on Demonland, people look for one answer or one issue, when the reality is that things are not that straightforward.

I'd suggest the following are all factors:

1. mid-game injuries which throw our balance - May, Petracca and Petty against Fremantle, then Turner, Gawn and Petty against Collingwood;
2. too many issues in our back half - no May, Petty playing half-injured, Lever, Hunt and Rivers all out of form, Hibberd and Salem working back into AFL-level fitness;
3. too many issues with our marking forwards - no TMac, B Brown out of form, M Brown not good enough, Weideman a mix of out of form and/or not good enough;
4. not enough pressure being applied in the forward half, giving our opponent the ease of moving the ball through the corridor;
5. too many turnovers, particularly when trying to deliver the ball inside 50.

We fixed some of the above mid-season last year (the last three, for example). But we didn't have to deal with the first two of those issues last year.

The two most disappointing features over the losses have been watching a 20+ point lead disappear, too easily, all three times, and our inability to cover our missing players. I'm disappointed that May not playing has been as impactful as it has been, and ditto TMac.

I believe we can turn around our issues, because we by and large faced the same issues last year and turned it around. But this time we don't have a soft fixture patch to get going like we did last year (we had GC, West Coast and Adelaide in Rounds 20-22, which led into the Geelong game and finals). We're going to have to find our form pretty quickly against top 8 sides because that's what our fixture presents us. It's not going to be easy, and right now I don't think you can criticise anyone who thinks top 4 is a longshot.

Can’t criticise anyone for an opinion.

Rather anyone that thinks Dees top 4 is a long shot, should be loading up on who they think will replace us :- as we are currently paying $1.25 for top 4.