There's an established path to success in rebuilding and it's all about getting early picks and giving them time to develop together and often at the expense of established older players.    You have to know when it's time to rebuild - as good a coach as Clarko is/was he refused to accept the inevitable.  Next minute the AFL is hit by COVID and completely stuffs club's TPPs.  

The strategy that Mitchell crafted was so 2019, it's shelf life expired last year.   Because of their profile they're now two years away from being able to rebuild their list, that's another two years where their younger core mark time and potentially look to move to more successful clubs.  

Edited October 13, 20213 yr by grazman

Sam McLure went easy on Kennett on Sportsday a few nights ago, wasn’t the right time and place but he was trapping him in his own hubris. Kennett alluded to him not talking to the FD when he sent the email to members claiming their fav players are getting nixed. 

Then how did you know they were getting traded you dill?

And the best part; “we believe we will be pushing for a flag again in 2 to 3 years”…

lol, yeah ok, whatever you think buddy.

What we will find out now is whether these players have as good a character as Tom McDonald did.

21 hours ago, Jontee said:

I want them to come 9th for the next 5 years....

But… but, what about Richmond?

1 hour ago, Ollie fan said:

What we will find out now is whether these players have as good a character as Tom McDonald did.

Bit different for TMac in that we had this discussion with him and encouraged him to find somewhere to go. Hawks just told them they were shopping them and entered into negotiations with teams they didn’t want to go to which is a waste of time for all involved, especially GWS.

23 hours ago, FarNorthernD said:

With Geelong 10th

To be honest I want geelong to finish 8th.  I want to see the look on Scotts face when they go out first week of the finals.

2 hours ago, Ollie fan said:

What we will find out now is whether these players have as good a character as Tom McDonald did.

Tom McDonald and Alex Neale-Bullen’s character, resilience, ability to take criticism and work ethic to turn things around and prove people wrong is a huge part of our premiership and an absolute credit to them, but I think it’s also a case in point of why Hawthorn handled this badly.

Its been well documented that Goodwin was super honest with Tom and Alex in their exit interviews, encouraging them to seek opportunities elsewhere but also telling them what they needed to do should they stay, how to push to get back in the team and that he’d be happy to work with them if they stayed. It’s also worth noting that Tom and Alex were struggling to get into our best 22 after 2020 and with the potential for Ben Brown and a few others coming in through trade and draft the club was letting McDonald and Neale-Bullen know that after a year where they already found it difficult to lock down a spot it was about to get much harder.

Compare that to Hawthorn, all the players mooted, Mitchell, O’Meara, Breust, Gunston and to a lesser extent Wingard had been walk up starts in the team all year, they were all regularly in the best (when they played Gunston obviously had back injuries).
It also took Hawthorn until half way through the trade period to start shopping people around and it seems players were the last to know this was happening, it certainly doesn’t sound like they were told anything concrete in their exit interviews or in the lead up to the trade period as they would’ve looked around. Breust seems not to have been told about the GWS deal until it was basically done at which point he said no as he was never interested in moving! 

It seems haphazard, unfair to the players and like it was done in a way that could really sour relationships at the club. Moving forward these are Hawthorn’s best players, in key roles,  largely in their prime and while I’m sure they’ll be professional and play their roles it’s a really terrible start to a new era. The most perplexing thing is it only would’ve taken a little care, planning and open communication with their players to avoid.

Edited October 13, 20213 yr by deejammin'

7 minutes ago, deejammin' said:

Tom McDonald and Alex Neale-Bullen’s character, resilience, ability to take criticism and work ethic to turn things around and prove people wrong is a huge part of our premiership and an absolute credit to them, but I think it’s also a case in point of why Hawthorn handled this badly.

Its been well documented that Goodwin was super honest with Tom and Alex in their exit interviews, encouraging them to seek opportunities elsewhere but also telling them what they needed to do should they stay, how to push to get back in the team and that he’d be happy to work with them if they stayed. It’s also worth noting that Tom and Alex were struggling to get into our best 22 after 2020 and with the potential for Ben Brown and a few others coming in through trade and draft the club was letting McDonald and Neale-Bullen know that after a year where they already found it difficult to lock down a spot it was about to get much harder.

Compare that to Hawthorn, all the players mooted, Mitchell, O’Meara, Breust, Gunston and to a lesser extent Wingard had been walk up starts in the team all year, they were all regularly in the best (when they played Gunston obviously had back injuries).
It also took Hawthorn until half way through the trade period to start shopping people around and it seems players were the last to know this was happening, it certainly doesn’t sound like they were told anything concrete in their exit interviews or in the lead up to the trade period as they would’ve looked around. Breust seems not to have been told about the GWS deal until it was basically done at which point he said no as he was never interested in moving! 

It seems haphazard, unfair to the players and like it was done in a way that could really sour relationships at the club. Moving forward these are Hawthorn’s best players, in key roles,  largely in their prime and while I’m sure they’ll be professional and play their roles it’s a really terrible start to a new era. The most perplexing thing is it only would’ve taken a little care, planning and open communication with their players to avoid.

Like most of us I've watched the replay many times and Nibbler was excellent, the run he provides is exceptional and he's turned in to a leader at the club, at one point after we'd kicked a goal and the boys were getting a bit happy with themselves he gave them a bit of a bake and told them to get on with it.

Tom had the opportunity to kick 4 or 5 extra goals but couldn't hold on to them, he dropped a few simple chest marks but otherwise played his part and was over the moon when he kicked his first goal. I think if he's held one early and kicked it he would have had a much better day. He seemed to be a bit nervous early on and who'd blame him.

I remarked to my son a few years ago, just before we got Jordie that Hawthorn had 11 or 12 players over 30 and some of them were well over 30, you could see then that they were close to the edge, like Geelong older players will only get you so far.

They've  made the mistake that other club's have, of thinking that if they get a few top shelf players they might sneak another flag, I hope that when we have won a couple of flags we don't go down that path. I'd rather drop down a few positions and replenish with kids through the draft than eek out a couple of extra years near the top and gradually fall down the ladder.

33 minutes ago, deejammin' said:

Tom McDonald and Alex Neale-Bullen’s character, resilience, ability to take criticism and work ethic to turn things around and prove people wrong is a huge part of our premiership and an absolute credit to them, but I think it’s also a case in point of why Hawthorn handled this badly.

Its been well documented that Goodwin was super honest with Tom and Alex in their exit interviews, encouraging them to seek opportunities elsewhere but also telling them what they needed to do should they stay, how to push to get back in the team and that he’d be happy to work with them if they stayed. It’s also worth noting that Tom and Alex were struggling to get into our best 22 after 2020 and with the potential for Ben Brown and a few others coming in through trade and draft the club was letting McDonald and Neale-Bullen know that after a year where they already found it difficult to lock down a spot it was about to get much harder.

Compare that to Hawthorn, all the players mooted, Mitchell, O’Meara, Breust, Gunston and to a lesser extent Wingard had been walk up starts in the team all year, they were all regularly in the best (when they played Gunston obviously had back injuries).
It also took Hawthorn until half way through the trade period to start shopping people around and it seems players were the last to know this was happening, it certainly doesn’t sound like they were told anything concrete in their exit interviews or in the lead up to the trade period as they would’ve looked around. Breust seems not to have been told about the GWS deal until it was basically done at which point he said no as he was never interested in moving! 

It seems haphazard, unfair to the players and like it was done in a way that could really sour relationships at the club. Moving forward these are Hawthorn’s best players, in key roles,  largely in their prime and while I’m sure they’ll be professional and play their roles it’s a really terrible start to a new era. The most perplexing thing is it only would’ve taken a little care, planning and open communication with their players to avoid.

It's just so good isn't it?!

I mentioned it earlier in the thread but it would just be so good if Clarko masterminded the new Tassie team taking members from the Hawks - https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/alastair-clarkson-joins-tasmanian-bid-for-standalone-afl-team-20211014-p58zwk.html

inprivate browsing or incognito mode and you can read the article

11 minutes ago, Cards13 said:

I mentioned it earlier in the thread but it would just be so good if Clarko masterminded the new Tassie team taking members from the Hawks - https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/alastair-clarkson-joins-tasmanian-bid-for-standalone-afl-team-20211014-p58zwk.html

inprivate browsing or incognito mode and you can read the article

Just move the whole club down there and re-install Clarkson as coach! Kennett has been banging on for years about how there’s too many clubs in Melbourne and the AFL will eventually have to either move or remove weaker clubs to survive. Put your money where your mouth is Jeff!! 🤪🤪🤪

27 minutes ago, Cards13 said:

I mentioned it earlier in the thread but it would just be so good if Clarko masterminded the new Tassie team taking members from the Hawks - https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/alastair-clarkson-joins-tasmanian-bid-for-standalone-afl-team-20211014-p58zwk.html

inprivate browsing or incognito mode and you can read the article

The article says Clarkson has a 6 month contract by the Tassie government.  So Clarkson gets nearly $1m from Jeff plus a tidy contract from the Hawks Home-Away-From-Home, hosts. 

Ouch, Jeff, Ouch!!

I reckon Clarkson will take a lot more than members from the Hawks.  Hawks can say bye bye to the millions they get from Tassie for the Home games they play there!  They will become dependent on pokies and government handouts.  Perform poorly for a few years and their Vic members won't go to games.  Their mega Dingley base may never get off the ground.

Clarkson will delight in bringing his nemesis down another peg or twenty!   

5 minutes ago, Premiers said:

Perform poorly for a few years and their Vic members won't go to games. 

They have a lot of fair-weather supporters, no doubt about that.

Couple that with a less than favourable (as in time spots) fixture and see how you go then Jeff.

On 10/11/2021 at 2:58 PM, DubDee said:

...if the rebuild started in 2018 they would be looking good now to bounce back.

Yes.  They did a Brisbane.  They thought they could get one more premiership and topped up and now they don't have enough high draft picks coming through. 

I don't get why those Hawthorn players want to stay.  They're going to spend years on the bottom.

Edited October 14, 20213 yr by one_demon

4 minutes ago, one_demon said:

I don't get why those Hawthorn players want to stay.  They're going to spend years on the bottom.

They probably don't.  But Mitchell and co didn't give them and their managers much time to find other clubs. 

Next year might be a different story re finding new homes.  Some will be OOC and some will still have a year left on contracts.  Either way Mitchell and co will need to let them go for poor draft picks or keep them on good money.

4 hours ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

But… but, what about Richmond?

Twelfth is the new Ninth, W 😉(as was coined in a few places late in the season when it became evident the lofty heights of ninth would be unattainable...)

All this talk about clubs culture, what is culture? There is only 2 forms of culture a winning culture and a losing culture, demons winning they must have good club culture, Hawks are now have a bad culture, swings and roundabouts.

21 minutes ago, Demon trucker said:

All this talk about clubs culture, what is culture? There is only 2 forms of culture a winning culture and a losing culture, demons winning they must have good club culture, Hawks are now have a bad culture, swings and roundabouts.

There are lots of different perspectives around what culture means, I take it to mean 'a way of doing things'. This year we moved to a 'selfless/ team-first' culture; it paid dividends. 

48 minutes ago, TRIGON said:

There are lots of different perspectives around what culture means, I take it to mean 'a way of doing things'. This year we moved to a 'selfless/ team-first' culture; it paid dividends. 

I think it’s been brewing for a number of years. The on-field culture took a marked improvement in the ‘team first area’ as you say but off-field we’ve seen incredible loyalty and passion for the club. It started with Nathan Jones’s many re-signings which filtered into Gawn, Viney, Oliver, Petracca, Salem, Harmes, McDonald (2018) and others. We’ve seen real loyalty from this whole group and a real club-first culture. Imagine our first 6 rounds if TMac had sooked it up, tried to get his trade value up having been told he should explore his options and insisted on playing the position he had re-tooled for on the wing. It’s easy to only see the success of this year in isolation but it’s been brewing for 5-7 years.

I’m finding this whole Geelong narrative around contending or not interesting. Our last five years are: 9th by percentage, Prelim, Second last (injuries, the lack of a pre-season and 6-6-6 and the ruck rules killed us, we made a prelim running extra players through stoppage with the best ruckman and a lot of the last three years was us figuring out how to change our strategy to deal with the rule changes. We certainly didn’t bottom out intentionally), 9th narrowly again, Premiers.

That’s a team contending, certainly not bottoming out and the key thing during that whole time was players who were committed to Melbourne. Our players had offers that in the past we would lose some of, Gawn from everyone, Petracca from Collingwood, Viney from Geelong, Oliver from Carlton, they all stayed, Premiership. That’s culture.

Edited October 14, 20213 yr by deejammin'

Absolutely no sympathy for Hawthorn whatsoever.

They have taken sheer delight in our misery over the last 57 years.

We all know the many games, incidents and events that have stuck in our minds.  Whether it be the 1987 Preliminary Final with Gary Buckenara kicking that goal after the siren when Jimmy Stynes accidentally ran through the mark to give away a 15 metre penalty at Waverley Park, the humiliation of losing by 96 points in the 1988 VFL Grand Final our first Grand Final appearance since 1964. The failed Merger attempt in 1996 where Hawthorn supporters say that we "voted" for the Merger and they didn't. Even though it was later clarified that there were dodgey proxy votes allowed during the Merger elections and other issues that we won't go into as it will open up a can of worms. 🤐

However, the facts state this, since 1964, Hawthorn has "won" only 1 Wooden Spoon in 1965. Contrast that with Melbourne who have "won" 7 Wooden Spoons in years 1969, 1974, 1978, 1981, 1997, 2008 and 2009. Not to mention all the times we missed out on finals and finished in the bottom half of the ladder.

In contrast, during that time Hawthorn has won 12 Premierships in 1971, 1976, 1978, 1983, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1991, 2008, 2013, 2014 and 2015.

We at the Melbourne Demons have now won 1 Premiership in 2021 after an extremely long drought of 57 years.

I think we can all confidently say that it is time for us to have some sustained success and we should not give a rat's toss-bag about Hawthorn.

 

 

22 minutes ago, deejammin' said:

I think it’s been brewing for a number of years. The on-field culture took a marked improvement in the ‘team first area’ as you say but off-field we’ve seen incredible loyalty and passion for the club. It started with Nathan Jones’s many re-signings which filtered into Gawn, Viney, Oliver, Petracca, Salem, Harmes, McDonald (2018) and others. We’ve seen real loyalty from this whole group and a real club-first culture. Imagine our first 6 rounds if TMac had sooked it up, tried to get his trade value up having been told he should explore his options and insisted on playing the position he had re-tooled for on the wing. It’s easy to only see the success of this year in isolation but it’s been brewing for 5-7 years.

I’m finding this whole Geelong narrative around contending or not interesting. Our last five years are: 9th by percentage, Prelim, Second last (injuries, the lack of a pre-season and 6-6-6 and the ruck rules killed us, we made a prelim running extra players through stoppage with the best ruckman and a lot of the last three years was us figuring out how to change our strategy to deal with the rule changes. We certainly didn’t bottom out intentionally), 9th narrowly again, Premiers.

That’s a team contending, certainly not bottoming out and the key thing during that whole time was players who were committed to Melbourne. Our players had offers that in the past we would lose some of, Gawn from everyone, Petracca from Collingwood, Viney from Geelong, Oliver from Carlton, they all stayed, Premiership. That’s culture.

Sometimes it's culture and sometimes it's business. Put yourself in a Geelong supporter's shoes for a moment. For the last decade, even though Gelong hasn't won a premiership, they've been in serious contention most years. That means Geelong supporters have been able to enjoy the football for most weeks for about 24 weeks of every year for 10 years. True, there hasn't been the ultimate reward in that time, but for most of every footy season, Geelong supporters have been kept happy because more weeks than not they have seen their team win. As a business model, that's a sound practice. It generates memberships and sponsorships.

3 hours ago, Cards13 said:

I mentioned it earlier in the thread but it would just be so good if Clarko masterminded the new Tassie team taking members from the Hawks - https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/alastair-clarkson-joins-tasmanian-bid-for-standalone-afl-team-20211014-p58zwk.html

inprivate browsing or incognito mode and you can read the article

Not before we get funding for our new digs. 

Appears to be a grassroots campaign for change at Hawthorn: https://hawksforchange.org/

1 hour ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Sometimes it's culture and sometimes it's business. Put yourself in a Geelong supporter's shoes for a moment. For the last decade, even though Gelong hasn't won a premiership, they've been in serious contention most years. That means Geelong supporters have been able to enjoy the football for most weeks for about 24 weeks of every year for 10 years. True, there hasn't been the ultimate reward in that time, but for most of every footy season, Geelong supporters have been kept happy because more weeks than not they have seen their team win. As a business model, that's a sound practice. It generates memberships and sponsorships.

I don’t disagree with the intention to contend and the positives this has for their business at all,  I think Geelong going for it every year is great, it’s about the insinuation people like Dangerfield are making that those not in the top four haven’t been contending, as our past five years have shown for many teams the difficult bit is getting to finals. We’re actually 5-1 in finals under Goodwin, our problem has been getting there due to a tendency to lose to teams we really shouldn’t, even this year!

I also think Geelong misunderstand the critique. Sure there are the usual media suspects that think they should trade all their good players out and go down the bottom for a few years. I think, however, most football people are in agreement that while Danger, Selwood, Hawkins and co are still there they should go for it.
The criticism is that they keep trading for players and not playing the small amount of players they do draft. They could and would have still been contending if they brought in three or four of Cameron, Smith, Higgins, Jack Steven, Zach Tuohy, Josh Jenkins, Gary Rohan and Luke Dahlhouse over the last few years and their list would have more of a balance to it with more developing drafted players. 

The way the debate has been framed around Geelong is too binary, you don’t either bring in older talent all the time and contend or go to the draft and be stuck in a five year rebuild, there’s a balance to strike. The last 5 premierships have had a balance of 17 drafted 5 traded, 16 drafted 6 traded, 15 drafted 7 traded, 16 drafted 6 traded, 16 drafted 6 traded. Geelong have 11 players in their best 22 who they have traded for as older players and with Seglar and Stengle in and very few drafted players pushing for spots next year that number is likely to go up. It’s out of whack. 

I envy Geelong fans enjoyment over the past decades but I think they would’ve and still would do a lot better to put their faith in a few more young draftees and their potential upside than relying on established players who can be great, but who are more likely to have peaked and be on the way down.
 

Edited October 14, 20213 yr by deejammin'