12 hours ago, old dee said:

And you expected more DC?

Circle those wagons, the brand is under attack

26 minutes ago, Mel Bourne said:

As an aside, was allowing De Goey back into the team in accordance with the “Do Better” report? 

Your ability has always determined the level of punishment and always will. Sad but that is sport. 

 

lumumba won't release full audio recordings now in reply to buckley's request

claims he has "many hours" of secret recordings

I just heard the version of the recording Lumumba put on his Twitter.

I approach this cautiously as there may be context we are missing due to the recording I listened to being only 3 minutes long. I will also add that Buckley made a pragmatic point at the end concerning Lumumba trying to change the culture of the club (albeit he said it with all the warmth of a suburban accountant).

That said, I definitely get where Heritier was coming from when he branded the FIG an 'insensitive (expletive deleted)' based on that recording. He came across as completely dictatorial, uncaring (odd for a bloke who has supposedly expressed concern about H's 'mental state') and tin eared considering the absolutely unbelievable nature of what Eddie said (as WYL has said, it beggars belief that he wasn't sacked as president after that).

The 'threw Eddie under the bus' bit for me was damning. In context of past events, it basically supports what was said in 'Do Better': that the connected and influential held outsourced power at the club that allowed a certain culture to thrive (i.e. let's ensure anyone demonstrating bigoted behavior not be held genuinely accountable).

The only sign that it might be overturned was when the Collingwood board and the sponsors finally rebelled against Eddie and he was finally made to stand down after his preposterous 'proud day for our football club' statement.

Ultimately, mediation needs to be undertaken. Lumumba is wise in not diving head first into this without preconditions or indications  that this will not be used by some in Collingwood to sanitize events and rehabilitate individuals who were despicable at the time of the events (*cough* Eddie *cough). But it needs to happen if he wants any form of justice or closure. 

The saga until then will drag on.

Edited May 11, 20223 yr by Colin B. Flaubert

Maybe he wants money.

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

lumumba won't release full audio recordings now in reply to buckley's request

claims he has "many hours" of secret recordings

Seems like he was trying to trap someone for an extended period of time. Either that or he is trying put the fear up a number. Either way it was consuming him then and still is.

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

lumumba won't release full audio recordings now in reply to buckley's request

claims he has "many hours" of secret recordings

Just thinking, a question for any lawyers here - are "secret recordings" legal and / or an invasion of privacy?

3 hours ago, old dee said:

It appears to me that Harry wants revenge, mediation is not in his mind. He wants to bring down the CFC. Nothing else will satisfy him. The way it looks to me is he will take this to the grave with him. I feel sad for him that he cannot move on. 

Look, in some way I agree. 

4 hours ago, Demonstone said:

Article from Greg Baum in The Age this morning on this very issue.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/collingwood-and-lumumba-a-fairytale-marriage-that-soured-20220510-p5ak7d.html

Interesting article by The Age writer but two things stick out. Old Harry is overseas and I think he sees it that he is protected by the absence of the Press at this juncture and secondly the man is running away from his comments and all that comes down to in my mind a very unstable person who cannot move forward and wants revenge by way of Corporate heads.. like the CFC.

 

27 minutes ago, monoccular said:

Just thinking, a question for any lawyers here - are "secret recordings" legal and / or an invasion of privacy?

i wonder if he secretly recorded meetings whilst he was at the mfc, specially towards the end when he had his concussion issues and seemed reluctant to retire.

2 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

i wonder if he secretly recorded meetings whilst he was at the mfc, specially towards the end when he had his concussion issues and seemed reluctant to retire.

You would have to think the answer is yes. Was that while PJ was in control?

Edited May 11, 20223 yr by old dee

For those that think he should 'move on' -  It's often those who say someone should move on, because a) they don't genuinely relate to why someone is choosing to pursue change, or b) they're part of the problem themselves, but just don't see it.

My take is this... (and my client work is with people whereby they feel a system/organisation has never supported them when they've attempted to address cultural or OHS issues (or whatever issue it is).

I always ask the question around their mental health and the choice to walk away and have immediate 'stress or anxiety' taken away to 'move on with their day to day living' - or the choice to continue to hold people/organisations to account, which will be demanding and take a toll often over many years. The impact on them and their families is always huge, always painful.

When an individual chooses to continue to 'fight' against a system that is stacked against them, it's never about money. It's often about protecting others in the future who will come into that organisation.

They are being clear on their values, and behaving inline with that... stepping away is incongruent with creating positive change

He is clearly a principled person (whether you agree with his is another story), and actively choosing not to 'move on' is his prerogative. This is not about ego, it's about values.

The energy and effort that is required by Heretier, is tremendous, compounded further that his is a minority, choosing to speak out and hold to account a system/organisation that failed him. 

Edited May 11, 20223 yr by Engorged Onion

The Comment sections on Facebook are so depressing to read, real ugly area. I've reported a few posts as racist but Silicon Valley does very little unfortunately .

Also respectfully can we please use the name Heritier in this discourse

17 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

i wonder if he secretly recorded meetings whilst he was at the mfc, specially towards the end when he had his concussion issues and seemed reluctant to retire.

I actually think the fact he doesn’t seem to have a problem with MFC brings more credence to his CFC claims. He praised Melbourne’s culture, Matty Whelan’s work and spoke glowingly of Nathan Jones’s empathy, ability to listen and support during the Adam Goodes saga.
 

It is Collingwood that wants to paint this as one man’s crusade, but it’s HL, Krakeour, Davis, McCaffer, Shae McNamara and an entire ‘do better’ report. H is a different guy and certainly a lot of people don’t like him but I think that needs to be kept seperate from major cultural issues at CFC and in the AFL community generally which clearly were not at an acceptable standard and has had considerable fall out for people’s lives. The fact H doesn’t seem to be going MFC and his grievance is with CFC makes it seem less like someone on a crusade against everyone and more like someone who has had a horrible experience and wants accountability.

As for the recordings, in most performance industries the first thing an industrial relations lawyer will tell you to do is bring a union rep or record any meetings that could be about sensitive cultural issues, contracts or where there is potential backlash for speaking openly. It’s not an invasion of privacy, it’s a workplace and employees are entitled to protection from misconduct. Usually you would ask to record any meetings, I’m not sure if H did, but Buckley should’ve been made aware, by his own HR department, to be careful in meetings anyway. 

This could well ruin Buckley's promising media career and impact whatever else he wants to do in life

I for one, don't think he deserves this treatment. The culture at the club was/is poor and he was part of that. But, I believe he tried to do better and is now no longer at the club.

Happy for Lumumba to continue to go after the club if he wishes and take them to court etc, but I would leave individuals out of the media.

CFC have acknowledged historical cultural problems. Lumumba and other black and Indigenous players are no longer speaking to the club as a result. No question where the historic blame lies here

In terms of where we’re at now, I think Lumumba feels he hasn’t been listened to. CFC and Buckley think they have listened and have put in place processes to improve the environment at the club going forward. Both parties believe they have acted in good faith and conscience. I don’t know where it goes from here but we’re certainly at an impasse. My advice is to deal with it behind closed doors rather than twitter.

And the reality is Lumumba may never forgive CFC and perhaps there is nothing the CFC can do about that. Sometimes relationships break beyond repair. For Lumumba’s sake he needs to find some kind of closure though. Airing these grievances regularly are no good for his wellbeing long term

24 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

For those that think he should 'move on' -  It's often those who say someone should move on, because a) they don't genuinely relate to why someone is choosing to pursue change, or b) they're part of the problem themselves, but just don't see it.

My take is this... (and my client work is with people whereby they feel a system/organisation has never supported them when they've attempted to address cultural or OHS issues (or whatever issue it is).

I always ask the question around their mental health and the choice to walk away and have immediate 'stress or anxiety' taken away to 'move on with their day to day living' - or the choice to continue to hold people/organisations to account, which will be demanding and take a toll often over many years. The impact on them and their families is always huge, always painful.

When an individual chooses to continue to 'fight' against a system that is stacked against them, it's never about money. It's often about protecting others in the future who will come into that organisation.

They are being clear on their values, and behaving inline with that... stepping away is incongruent with creating positive change

He is clearly a principled person (whether you agree with his is another story), and actively choosing not to 'move on' is his prerogative. This is not about ego, it's about values.

The energy and effort that is required by Heretier, is tremendous, compounded further that his is a minority, choosing to speak out and hold to account a system/organisation that failed him. 

I normally agree with everything you post @Engorged Onion but I disagree on this. Lamumba wasn't playing with a system stacked against him 

He played as a crowd favourite at Collingwood 

HE came to Melbourne and we embraced him.

Can anyone imagine Bernie Vince getting up on the best and fairest night and declaring he was a prince. It simply wouldn't happen

36 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

For those that think he should 'move on' -  It's often those who say someone should move on, because a) they don't genuinely relate to why someone is choosing to pursue change, or b) they're part of the problem themselves, but just don't see it.

My take is this... (and my client work is with people whereby they feel a system/organisation has never supported them when they've attempted to address cultural or OHS issues (or whatever issue it is).

I always ask the question around their mental health and the choice to walk away and have immediate 'stress or anxiety' taken away to 'move on with their day to day living' - or the choice to continue to hold people/organisations to account, which will be demanding and take a toll often over many years. The impact on them and their families is always huge, always painful.

When an individual chooses to continue to 'fight' against a system that is stacked against them, it's never about money. It's often about protecting others in the future who will come into that organisation.

They are being clear on their values, and behaving inline with that... stepping away is incongruent with creating positive change

He is clearly a principled person (whether you agree with his is another story), and actively choosing not to 'move on' is his prerogative. This is not about ego, it's about values.

The energy and effort that is required by Heretier, is tremendous, compounded further that his is a minority, choosing to speak out and hold to account a system/organisation that failed him. 

All that is probably true EO and you are correct I am not in a minority and have a poor understanding of his feelings. I do however have a non Anglo Saxon son in law and combination grand children so I do try to understand. For his mental health he has to draw a line. God knows where the line is.

"I will share my truth as I see fit."

Jog on champ.  Nothing to see here.  Don't care for his side of the story now tbh

figjam and tickets was never going to gel

1 hour ago, monoccular said:

Just thinking, a question for any lawyers here - are "secret recordings" legal and / or an invasion of privacy?

You are entitled to record any workplace conversation you are in. Generally you would alert the other participants that you were doing so but there is no legal obligation to do so. Publishing those tapes in the media is usually a different thing, I can't speak to the legalities of publishing though and the fact that he is now living in the US and presumably published them from there may mean that Australian media/defamation laws don't apply.

57 minutes ago, DubDee said:

This could well ruin Buckley's promising media career and impact whatever else he wants to do in life

I for one, don't think he deserves this treatment. The culture at the club was/is poor and he was part of that. But, I believe he tried to do better and is now no longer at the club.

Happy for Lumumba to continue to go after the club if he wishes and take them to court etc, but I would leave individuals out of the media.

Given that the club was largely represented by Bucks with respect to Heritier I don't think there is anyway for him to attack the club without bringing Bucks into it. My impression was that he and other culturally diverse players attempted to engage with the club in their response to the Do Better report but no longer believe that the club is genuinely engaging with the problem. His only avenue to satisfaction, as far as I can see, is through applying pressure via social media and direct legal action - suing.

While people question Heritier's motives they seem to conveniently forget that Leon Davis and Andrew Krakour have also withdrawn from the reconciliation process. Heritier seems to just be the most vocal one.

1 hour ago, DubDee said:

This could well ruin Buckley's promising media career and impact whatever else he wants to do in life

I for one, don't think he deserves this treatment. The culture at the club was/is poor and he was part of that. But, I believe he tried to do better and is now no longer at the club.

Happy for Lumumba to continue to go after the club if he wishes and take them to court etc, but I would leave individuals out of the media.

I don’t think having a chequered past seems to be an issue with having an AFL media career, Wayne Carey, Jabs Watson, Sam Newman, Matt Rendell, Eddie Maguire, Fev, Dane Swan the list goes on… Bucks gets an entire radio and tv platform to tell his side of the story and will continue to do so, his employers are probably loving this as it’s making more stories for them. It’s interesting that so many instantly see Bucks as the victim atm but for so many years people ignored, defamed and discredited Lumumba and others when they made legitimate claims. Bucks flat out denied the ‘threw him under the bus’ comment at his first press conference on it in 2017, but now he’s a victim when it’s proven. Strange double-standards at work here, or are there…

Edited May 11, 20223 yr by deejammin'

1 hour ago, Wrecker46 said:

Lamumba wasn't playing with a system stacked against him 

It's a good point. I'll choose my words a bit more carefully.

It appears he was more evolved than the sociocultural system in place at the time. He was addressing, sexism, racism and other forms of bigotry 10 years ago in a system that was not ready for that to be addressed.  Importantly, he was not being compliant (and is still not) to what he feels is acceptable for his distress to be redressed, whereas I suspect many other people would be compliant.

People get paid out all the time in these situations, people sign non-disclosure agreements. That aint Heretier's style.

 

Can you help me understand what you meant by

"Can anyone imagine Bernie Vince getting up on the best and fairest night and declaring he was a prince. It simply wouldn't happen"

Edited May 11, 20223 yr by Engorged Onion

I met Bucks very early in his career at CFC where I happened to have lunch irregularly. He was humble, inquisitive and had a genuine interest in what someone who didnt barrack for CFC thought of the place, what their impression was of CFC in general. I was happy to chat. I dont have a strong dislike of the Pies at all, although Id run from fights on the odd occasion after a Dees win at Vic Park and Id witnessed the spitting on players coming out of the runway. Anyway I have a respect for the guy since then. I have observed Eddie in the old days at the Chevron and I had also witnessed how Heretier carried on one match day while being a guest in the Lindsay Hassett room. And with having said that Ill take the advice of my grade 2 teacher, Miss Green (Michael Greens sister) 'If you cant say something nice about a person, dont say anything at all'.

At all.

1 hour ago, FlashInThePan said:

Given that the club was largely represented by Bucks with respect to Heritier I don't think there is anyway for him to attack the club without bringing Bucks into it. My impression was that he and other culturally diverse players attempted to engage with the club in their response to the Do Better report but no longer believe that the club is genuinely engaging with the problem. His only avenue to satisfaction, as far as I can see, is through applying pressure via social media and direct legal action - suing.

While people question Heritier's motives they seem to conveniently forget that Leon Davis and Andrew Krakour have also withdrawn from the reconciliation process. Heritier seems to just be the most vocal one.

I agree, I reckon he should do this rather leak snippets of private conversations.  let the court hear his case and let's get to a resolution

I don't follow your final remark in relation to my comment but maybe that was aimed at someone else. I am certainly not saying there wasn't systemic racism at Colingwood