Good to hear about Petty and Sparrow

Smith is no good, can't understand them extending him even if only for a year. Put him on the rookie list if you have to (is that still a thing next year) but don't waste a senior list spot on a guy who isn't even that good as a depth option

I'm not a fan of Smith and would not have been upset if we had let him go.

A one-year deal is not the end of the world though. We can't delist everyone and if the rumours suggest we're looking to move on from OMac, then it makes a bit more sense to retain Smith.

  On 02/10/2020 at 02:36, Domgus Petrogan said:

Why did we re-sign a guy who averaged 3.8 effective disposals a game this year? Anyone?

Smith is the ideal back-up because he can play pretty much any position except ruck and he is happy to play a shut-down role on his opponent as we saw with his games late in the season on Papley and for a brief time even on Cameron.

Personally I think we should be looking at  our midfield set-up and whether we can afford to have three guys trying to win one ball - Trac, Oliver, Viney and back-up Brayshaw when there. One of our mids should be a team-oriented negater and I would argue that Harmes in 2018 played that role so well that he ended up a bit of a weapon. Smith has that ability as well and has the size to cope with Danger and Fyfe and Dusty when they play forward. He's never going to be a star, but good sides have role players and Smith's athleticism make him potentially highly useful. 

It is interesting that Powell-Pepper played so well last night and is generally among Port's best 22 and yet those that watch the game would wonder about his skills. The same for Butters whose kicking is atrocious. Yet they are both battering rams that put their body on the line for the good of their team. The same applies to Richmond's sides of the past few years - who in their right mind would rate Graham or McIntosh, yet they are disciplined and effective.

I am happy to argue that having one of Harmes or Smith in our team next year is crucial and I'm very happy for us to play both because they can switch on players with Smith taking the better aerialist. 

Personally I'm disappointed that we didn't sign Smith for two more years, but given his injury-prone background I accept it may be a smarter move. 

Not the greatest Smith fan but prefer him to OMAC. Also he can be put forward.

  On 02/10/2020 at 03:04, DeeSpencer said:

Better coaching and some consistent VFL footy could unlock Smith. He’s not nearly as far off making it as people think. 

What are the alternatives?

Hibberd in his final year, Hore who’s too short and slow to switch on to talls, Tomlinson who’s too slow for quick guys? Got to give him one last chance to see if he can make it 

Hore and Smith are the same height.

  On 02/10/2020 at 03:34, Ethan Tremblay said:

Hore and Smith are the same height.

Smith’s listed as a cm taller but his reach and leap gives him a lot more range, plus the speed to go with quick talls. 

  On 02/10/2020 at 02:19, The Chazz said:

Goodwin said that we need to be a ruthless club. Re-signing players like Smith, to me, shows that we still don't known how to make decisions that smart clubs make.

Will only take an announcement that Jones has been extended for a year, and I'll put a freeze on my membership for 2021.

That's my opinion. Many will think it's a poor one, but it's where I'm at with this club now. I want greater accountability for poor decisions.

There's ruthlessness and then there's stupidity.

I don't rate Sparrow or Smith, but the reason for Smith's re-signing is down to defensive cover. We're moving on Oscar and as @Lucifer's Hero said, we need defensive cover. I hope Petty ultimately goes back next year, but we've got to get his body right. Hibberd probably has one year left in him. For a year, we can't afford to go into 2021 and not have enough defensive KP coverage. If we want to go deep next year, we need this cover.

I'm reading between the lines here, but given they've re-signed Sparrow, I'd say we'll trade one of Gus or Harmes. The latter two are eminently better players and natural ball winners. Sparrow doesn't win enough ball and as @rjay has previously touted, would be better tried in defence where his role is locking down and not accumulating. 

Edited October 2, 20204 yr by A F

  On 02/10/2020 at 03:34, Ethan Tremblay said:

Hore and Smith are the same height.

Hore is a turnover merchant and I wouldn't be surprised to see him moved on.

Great news to see Sparrow and Petty sign on for more. A 1 yr contract for Smith sends a message. With Tomlinson likely to stay down back as we recruit another wingman and Petty who can play back then Smith has a year to show something and I think Oscar misses out on a contract moving forward.Also not TMac going to shed the extra kgs he put on this year and return to his old shape and endurance.

  On 02/10/2020 at 03:46, A F said:

Hore is a turnover merchant and I wouldn't be surprised to see him moved on.

Hore averages four turnovers per game which isn’t great. Smith averages three per game but has half the disposals. 

Edited October 2, 20204 yr by Ethan Tremblay

  On 02/10/2020 at 03:34, Ethan Tremblay said:

Hore and Smith are the same height.

 

  On 02/10/2020 at 03:41, DeeSpencer said:

Smith’s listed as a cm taller but his reach and leap gives him a lot more range, plus the speed to go with quick talls. 

 

  On 02/10/2020 at 03:46, A F said:

Hore is a turnover merchant and I wouldn't be surprised to see him moved on.

 

  On 02/10/2020 at 03:52, Ethan Tremblay said:

Hore averages four turnovers per game which isn’t great. Smith averages three per game but has half the disposals. 

Hore, the natural footballer with limitations...

Smith, the natural athlete with limitations...

Looks like lists will be 42 plus 2 Category B so not a massive change. No issues with 1 year for Smith. Sparrow will be a player.

  On 02/10/2020 at 03:06, Dr. Gonzo said:

Good to hear about Petty and Sparrow

Smith is no good, can't understand them extending him even if only for a year. Put him on the rookie list if you have to (is that still a thing next year) but don't waste a senior list spot on a guy who isn't even that good as a depth option

Josh Wagner can consider himself very unlucky to get cut from the list before Smith.

  On 02/10/2020 at 02:19, The Chazz said:

Goodwin said that we need to be a ruthless club. Re-signing players like Smith, to me, shows that we still don't known how to make decisions that smart clubs make.

Will only take an announcement that Jones has been extended for a year, and I'll put a freeze on my membership for 2021.

That's my opinion. Many will think it's a poor one, but it's where I'm at with this club now. I want greater accountability for poor decisions.

Look this is a pretty average post.

1) with no exposed u18 form, a comprised draft, no first round pick, and Lockhart and Brown as potential rookie upgrades, we are not bringing in lots of players from the outside to fill roles this year unless they are FA.

2) Its been reported OMac is on the way out, so we do need coverage for a 3rd defender (or even a May, Lever injury), with Tomlinson likely to be trialled on wing on the bigger, wider MCG, and Petty showing promise forward.

3) One year for Smith simply provides that cover.

4) Next year the soft caps are reducing, and we will be down on coaching structures. A player / coaching role for Jones is a way to allieviate this, while also having cover on field if needed. Do I think he'll be the best coach? No. But he'll be better than no coach. It's actually a pretty innovative option.

 

 

What do you want them to do? Dump everyone to prove they are ruthless then try our luck with pick 80+ in the draft?

  On 02/10/2020 at 03:43, A F said:

I'm reading between the lines here, but given they've re-signed Sparrow, I'd say we'll trade one of Gus or Harmes. The latter two are eminently better players and natural ball winners. Sparrow doesn't win enough ball and as @rjay has previously touted, would be better tried in defence where his role is locking down and not accumulating. 

Not sure anyone will take a chance on Brayshaw with a dodgy foot and Harmes is the kind of solid clubman who rarely moves teams.
 

Sparrow looked to have more composure than Harmes and far better speed and defensive pressure than Gus. There’s room for him in the midfield. There’s room for all of them if the balance is right 

I think we’re judging his accumulation skills off a few quiet vfl games where they asked him to tag afl level players and afl games where he’s played half forward a fair bit. His first 3 games this year playing limited minutes he averaged 14 touches. That could easily bump to 18 with normal game time next year 

  On 02/10/2020 at 04:17, deanox said:

Look this is a pretty average post.

1) with no exposed u18 form, a comprised draft, no first round pick, and Lockhart and Brown as potential rookie upgrades, we are not bringing in lots of players from the outside to fill roles this year unless they are FA.

2) Its been reported OMac is on the way out, so we do need coverage for a 3rd defender (or even a May, Lever injury), with Tomlinson likely to be trialled on wing on the bigger, wider MCG, and Petty showing promise forward.

3) One year for Smith simply provides that cover.

4) Next year the soft caps are reducing, and we will be down on coaching structures. A player / coaching role for Jones is a way to allieviate this, while also having cover on field if needed. Do I think he'll be the best coach? No. But he'll be better than no coach. It's actually a pretty innovative option.

 

 

What do you want them to do? Dump everyone to prove they are ruthless then try our luck with pick 80+ in the draft?

I agree with this.

The reality is COVID has severely hampered list management plans. The draft is a lottery, nothing happening in the state leagues and reduced caps and list sizes means we have to pretty much make do with what we’ve got.

Sparrow is worth a contract but I’m not sold long term. Still has plenty to prove.

Smith purely as depth is just about palatable.

Petty showed plenty in the back end of 2019 but missing a full season injured is always a worry. Hopefully burgess can get him right.

I think Jones is cooked playing wise but he may have some coaching ability. Stalwart of the club so worth a punt imv.

  On 02/10/2020 at 03:52, Ethan Tremblay said:

Hore averages four turnovers per game which isn’t great. Smith averages three per game but has half the disposals. 

Sure, I don't rate Smith either. I guess I just meant Hore probably won't be on the list, so the comparison will become moot.

  On 02/10/2020 at 04:07, rjay said:

Hore, the natural footballer with limitations...

Smith, the natural athlete with limitations...

I wouldn't have either on my list post 2021.

  On 02/10/2020 at 04:28, DeeSpencer said:

Not sure anyone will take a chance on Brayshaw with a dodgy foot and Harmes is the kind of solid clubman who rarely moves teams.
 

Sparrow looked to have more composure than Harmes and far better speed and defensive pressure than Gus. There’s room for him in the midfield. There’s room for all of them if the balance is right 

I think we’re judging his accumulation skills off a few quiet vfl games where they asked him to tag afl level players and afl games where he’s played half forward a fair bit. His first 3 games this year playing limited minutes he averaged 14 touches. That could easily bump to 18 with normal game time next year 

I'm not sure I agree with either of these points, but each to their own mate.

Giving Smith a year, after being selected for the last 4 games of the year whilst we were competing for a finals spot, indicates that the coaching group thinks he provides some value. He only got a one year deal, so they're clearly not convinced, but he's certainly worth a spot on a list rather than pick 80 in a year where half the potential draftees haven't even played a competitive game.

As for Jones, even if it isn't just about coaching, I can see him getting a year on the list. He's not the player he used to be but he's still a player capable of being in the bottom couple of players filling a role in the side. From round 8 on, he played every game where he was fit (and even one he wasn't!) because of his ability to do a selfless role to a reasonable level. Plus his cost is almost zero (ie, the same pick 80 as above), so why not? Plus he would be a good influence around the group.

  On 02/10/2020 at 04:44, Axis of Bob said:

 

As for Jones, even if it isn't just about coaching, I can see him getting a year on the list. He's not the player he used to be but he's still a player capable of being in the bottom couple of players filling a role in the side. From round 8 on, he played every game where he was fit (and even one he wasn't!) because of his ability to do a selfless role to a reasonable level. Plus his cost is almost zero (ie, the same pick 80 as above), so why not? Plus he would be a good influence around the group.

The reasons for Jones are whether he actually does a selfless role and whether he is a good influence and has anything of value to add. I think in the games Jones did play this year he finally started to tackle and accept a more defensive role the he hadn't previously. And he seemed to be more interested in coaching when he got injured. Not that he was selfish before but I think the penny started to drop this year that he couldn't just move to a wing or flank but he has to change his game and outlook.

The cost is a spot on the list, but we've still got plenty of spots free at the moment. It's hard to judge that worth until we see how many players we have coming in and going out. Just too early to tell.

  On 02/10/2020 at 04:14, Clintosaurus said:

Looks like lists will be 42 plus 2 Category B so not a massive change. No issues with 1 year for Smith. Sparrow will be a player.

wow, really? i had not heard that

that's barely a change at all compared to what was being predicted throughout the home and away year

Smith is a handy player, not many goals were kicked against him , so he performed his role even though I still think he is a natural forward.

He has a good leap and another pre season might see him be more of a  contributor. Remember he basically lost two seasons with injury.  

  On 02/10/2020 at 04:17, deanox said:

Look this is a pretty average post.

1) with no exposed u18 form, a comprised draft, no first round pick, and Lockhart and Brown as potential rookie upgrades, we are not bringing in lots of players from the outside to fill roles this year unless they are FA.

2) Its been reported OMac is on the way out, so we do need coverage for a 3rd defender (or even a May, Lever injury), with Tomlinson likely to be trialled on wing on the bigger, wider MCG, and Petty showing promise forward.

3) One year for Smith simply provides that cover.

4) Next year the soft caps are reducing, and we will be down on coaching structures. A player / coaching role for Jones is a way to allieviate this, while also having cover on field if needed. Do I think he'll be the best coach? No. But he'll be better than no coach. It's actually a pretty innovative option.

 

 

What do you want them to do? Dump everyone to prove they are ruthless then try our luck with pick 80+ in the draft?

What do I want? A list that has players that can play, or have the potential of developing in to a player. Smith is neither of those, and Jones' career should've finished st the end of 2018 (his 2019 was deplorable, and 2020 was worse).

Point 1 - surely we could've held off until we knew what might've been available through trade. Mitch Brown is a great example of a player being let go that had a little bit left in the tank. No club would've been asking about Smith, so we could've waited.

With regard to point 2, clearly if we are chasing a Polec/Isaac Smith-type, they are wanting another wing. This to me tells me Tomlinson is playing back next year. I think we have a number of back up options for that defensive role, and strongly believe Smith is about 6th on that list. Problem is that Goodwin clearly doesn't agree, and I feel we are a weaker team when Smith is in.

Reality is, my argument is irrelevant. He's on our list for another 12 months and no amount of me whinging will change that. Won't stop me from being disappointed though.

  On 02/10/2020 at 04:41, A F said:

Sure, I don't rate Smith either. I guess I just meant Hore probably won't be on the list, so the comparison will become moot.

I wouldn't have either on my list post 2021.

I'm not sure I agree with either of these points, but each to their own mate.

That will probably be the case unless Smith has a big year...

We still need to have depth players who can fill a role and with Oscar moving on and a few others then Smith is obviously being kept as a hold for next year.

Sounds like the decisions was between Smith and Oscar and we've gone with Smith. 

  On 02/10/2020 at 05:33, The Chazz said:

With regard to point 2, clearly if we are chasing a Polec/Isaac Smith-type, they are wanting another wing. This to me tells me Tomlinson is playing back next year. I think we have a number of back up options for that defensive role, and strongly believe Smith is about 6th on that list.