POSTGAME: Rd 16 vs Fremantle

[old dee 23,872]

1 hour ago, chook fowler said:

Max's disposal has gone down the crapper. He seems to have lost the game awareness that he once had. 

I am convinced he is playing injured since his return Chook. 

[chook fowler 19,551]

Just now, old dee said:

I am convinced he is playing injured since his return Chook. 

probably right

[Cards13 9,117]

33 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

 Players who played any of the three finals who didn't play last night:

TMac, OMac, Jones, Lewis, Tyson, Hannan, Frost, Spargo, Jetta

Of those, only Lewis, Tyson and Frost aren't on our list any more, and of the rest, only Jones was unavailable for selection last night.

The list isn't materially different.

I will say this: I am of the view that one player's regression has made more difference than the rest put together. That one player is TMac. Not only has he dropped off his 2018 level, he's gone so far away from it that he's unrecognisable as a player. If he had shed only a little bit of his 2018 form, but was still a 30-40 goal forward (in a 22-game season at least), things would be majorly different IMO.

We didn't really have six starting forwards last night because we dropped Fritsch loose behind the ball.

But let's go with Weideman, Preuss, ANB, Pickett, Bedford and vandenBerg.

Weideman - 1.73, ANB - 0.8, Pickett - 0.5, vandenBerg - 0.1, Preuss - 0, Bedford - 0.

That's an overall total of 3.13, 55% of which comes from Weideman.

However, Fritsch is 1.29, Hunt is 1.25 and Melksham is 1. 

Was it?

Fyfe played pretty well, 7 clearances I think. Melksham had no impact.

I'm not sure it was the right call at all.

I agree.

It's not enough to explain why we were so bad against both Sydney and Fremantle, but we've had a much tougher run than some other clubs.

I like your analysis TU, if you look at it over the year:

Backline - Above average to average in output (although it dawned on me when I saw Lever, May and Tomlinson all in the backline we have so much invested here when typically you'd be investing in Mids and Fwds $$)

Mids - Average to below average (a couple of well above average games)

Fwds - below average to poor the entire season

A good team will still be able to get a win last night and Swans game by having a half decent, functioning forward line.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Cards13

[leave it to deever 17,517]

13 hours ago, DeeZee said:

We picked a team of runners and it poured rain .

Picked Preuss as well but hard to Mark in the wet.

As bad as we are it’s rotten luck.

They didnt look like runners to me. 

[Cards13 9,117]

16 minutes ago, demonique said:

One of the dumbest things I saw last night was Viney leaping for a ball in front of and getting in the way of Gawn FFS . That bloke is a warrior , no doubt , but he is one of the stupidest players going around. Stuffs up the mids to be honest and much better without him there . Down to the forward line and do some crumbing please . 

Remember that clearly and at the time I thought were is the talk, someone else needs to be telling Viney and Gawn 'GAWNS BALL, Leave it Vins for Gawn!'. Or Gawn saying "Gawns ball, Gawns ball"!!! Then Viney stays down to get the hands off from Gawn.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

18 minutes ago, demonique said:

One of the dumbest things I saw last night was Viney leaping for a ball in front of and getting in the way of Gawn FFS . That bloke is a warrior , no doubt , but he is one of the stupidest players going around. Stuffs up the mids to be honest and much better without him there . Down to the forward line and do some crumbing please . 

Would it be a "ruthless" thing to do to ship him off to another club? Are there any with a shortage of boneheaded fearlessness?

[chook fowler 19,551]

1 minute ago, Mazer Rackham said:

Would it be a "ruthless" thing to do to ship him off to another club? Are there any with a shortage of boneheaded fearlessness?

we have plenty of boneheads - fearless, not so much.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

Titan

Thanks for your research. The best I can work out is we would kicked 6 goals if we had  nine players all playing in the forward line  last night

[Coq au vin 755]

1 hour ago, Half forward flank said:

Yeah, different. Hogan had a go at him for fumbling the ball in th goalsquare that resulted in a goal. That is not leadership, its just heated words.

I didn’t mention leadership.

[leave it to deever 17,517]

10 minutes ago, Cards13 said:

I like your analysis TU, if you look at it over the year:

Backline - Above average to average in output (although it dawned on me when I saw Lever, May and Tomlinson all in the backline we have so much invested here when typically you'd be investing in Mids and Fwds $$)

Mids - Average to below average (a couple of well above average games)

Fwds - below average to poor the entire season

A good team will still be able to get a win last night and Swans game by having a half decent, functioning forward line.

Prior to the start of the season Weid was still an unknown commodity in my book. True he had a couple of good games in our previous finals campaign but had not broken out.

Tmac was woeful last year and I guees they were banking on him to recapture his previous form.

Thats a big gamble.

Jackson turned out to be very good but he is young and inexperienced and then got injured.

So in effect , disregarding Jackson, the club said okay then, we have two tall frwds. They must have had a crystal ball telling them that tmac was going to return to his old self and weid will get better.

Well Weid did get better but he is not at a Coleman level yet by a fair way.

Hogan and Garlett left and the club wasnt too concerned about replacing them.

How did the club that spent a fortune on the backline forget we need to score goals as well?

[Watts the matter 1,235]

3 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Prior to the start of the season Weid was still an unknown commodity in my book. True he had a couple of good games in our previous finals campaign but had not broken out.

Tmac was woeful last year and I guees they were banking on him to recapture his previous form.

Thats a big gamble.

Jackson turned out to be very good but he is young and inexperienced and then got injured.

So in effect , disregarding Jackson, the club said okay then, we have two tall frwds. They must have had a crystal ball telling them that tmac was going to return to his old self and weid will get better.

Well Weid did get better but he is not at a Coleman level yet by a fair way.

Hogan and Garlett left and the club wasnt too concerned about replacing them.

How did the club that spent a fortune on the backline forget we need to score goals as well?

I think Tmac has hurt us more than anything else. The games changes when you have a dangerous key forward. We can't go into 2021 hoping he can turn it around, that was this year. We have so many gaps on our list, I don't know where to start.

 

[layzie 34,013]

My limited edition guernsey has arrived today. Last Wednesday I emailed the demon shop (After several emails) asking if I could get a number put on it. They did eventually respond asking which number to which I replied no.11 but didn't hear again. Concerned how quickly it's arrived considering this change request but also not giving two hoots about anything today:

When I open the parcel, the limited edition guernsey will be:

A) With the number requested despite usually having to pay extra for numbers and super quick dispatch. Ie. the best customer service in the history of the world

B) With no number, info wasn't passed to the factory in time and dispatch went out. 

 

Answers on a postcard...

Edited September 8, 2020 by layzie

[Kent 2,914]

27 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

Would it be a "ruthless" thing to do to ship him off to another club? Are there any with a shortage of boneheaded fearlessness?

I would be happy with that Mazer

his stupidity drives me crazy Perhaps Adelaide

Edited September 8, 2020 by Kent

[Lucifers Hero 40,364]

This is a still of the change rooms after the game from OTC last night which shows May and Lever. 

The video version shows Baker sitting a fair way to their left and after a little while gets up and leaves.  No team mate or leader got around him.

When the camera panned further out Rivers was sitting on his own in the corner opposite May and Lever, head in hands looking distraught.  Heartbreaking vision which lasted 30-60 seconds.

Viney walks past in the foreground presumably from the showers where the rest of the team must have been.  Neither May, Lever nor Viney went to Rivers to console him or even talk to him.  Very poor leadership and care for a young team mate who was in the top 5 best on ground.

This is not ok behaviour by our leaders.  It is not ok in standard setting.  It is not ok to leave a kid to sort out what had just happened on his own. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[Half forward flank 1,022]

26 minutes ago, Coq au vin said:

I didn’t mention leadership.

So what was the point of what you said.

 

[old dee 23,872]

4 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

This is a still of the change rooms after the game from OTC last night which shows May and Lever. 

The video version shows Baker sitting a fair way to their left and after a little while gets up and leaves.  No team mate or leader got around him.

When the camera panned further out Rivers was sitting on his own in the corner opposite May and Lever, head in hands looking distraught.  Heartbreaking vision which lasted 30-60 seconds.

Viney walks past in the foreground presumably from the showers where the rest of the team must have been.  Neither May, Lever nor Viney went to Rivers to console him or even talk to him.  Very poor leadership and care for a young team mate who was in the top 5 best on ground.

This is not ok behaviour by our leaders.  It is not ok in standard setting.  It is not ok to leave a kid to sort out what had just happened on his own. 

Thank God you are on here LH. When I see you have posted my first reaction is this will be worth reading. Please keep up the good work.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

4 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

This is a still of the change rooms after the game from OTC last night which shows May and Lever. 

The video version shows Baker sitting a fair way to their left and after a little while gets up and leaves.  No team mate or leader got around him.

When the camera panned further out Rivers was sitting on his own in the corner opposite May and Lever, head in hands looking distraught.  Heartbreaking vision which lasted 30-60 seconds.

Viney walks past in the foreground presumably from the showers where the rest of the team must have been.  Neither May, Lever nor Viney went to Rivers to console him or even talk to him.  Very poor leadership and care for a young team mate who was in the top 5 best on ground.

This is not ok behaviour by our leaders.  It is not ok in standard setting.  It is not ok to leave a kid to sort out what had just happened on his own. 

How long had they been off the ground for when this vision was shown?  

I only ask because:

If it was straight after the game, then that's not a good look at all.

If it was taken 5 minutes after, then we can only assume it's not a good look as we don't know what happened prior.

Either way, it doesn't take anything away from the current lack of leadership that still hangs amongst this playing group.

[binman 43,813]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Just on Tom - he has never been the same since his injuries after the 2018 season.  He has never even been close to being the same player, and I think this has had a major impact.  

100%. I have zero doubt he is injured  or worse has chronic issues. Most likely with his feet (note: this is based on my observation, not any intel).

He is too heavy and has lost all mobility. This has to be down to a limit on how much running he is able to do.

IIRC his last surgery was post the 2018 season. He has always been close to our best time trialled. He wasnt this year and my recollection is tbe club didnt say where players finished, orher than tbe first two. But I think I recall a poster saying he was back in rbe pack.

It is not a form thing in my mind. It is an injury thing. Which is worse.

[Lucifers Hero 40,364]

2 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

How long had they been off the ground for when this vision was shown?  

I only ask because:

If it was straight after the game, then that's not a good look at all.

If it was taken 5 minutes after, then we can only assume it's not a good look as we don't know what happened prior.

Either way, it doesn't take anything away from the current lack of leadership that still hangs amongst this playing group.

It doesn't matter when it was taken.  Our Vice captain who walked past him and his two back line leaders (May and Lever) who had been sitting in the same room, all ignored him.

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

This is a still of the change rooms after the game from OTC last night which shows May and Lever. 

The video shows Baker is sitting a fair way to their left and after a little while gets up and leaves.  No team mate or leader got around him.

When the camera panned out Rivers was sitting on his own in the corner opposite May and Lever,  head in hands looking distraught for quite some time.  Heartbreaking vision which lasted 30-60 seconds.

Viney walks past in the foreground presumably from the showers where the rest of the team must have been.  Neither May, Lever nor Viney went to Rivers to console him or even talk to him.

Very poor leadership and care for a young team mate who was in the top 5 best on ground.

This is not ok behaviour by our leaders.  It is not ok in setting standards.  It is not ok to leave a kid to sort out what had just happened on his own. 

Watched this myself and thought that something really is not right.  They are not in this together at all.   Only time this year i have seen the change rooms and something positive after a loss was Petracca going around patting people on the backs and saying "keep your head up" and trying to keep spirits up.

Gawn is captain and should be all over this...encourage the kids.   Viney is vice captain and should be all over this but is as thick as a brick, i am not sure he would see it or even know what sympathy or empathy entail.  May would be absolutely gutted to be missing finals again....normally i think he would be comforting others but after that was likely feeling quite sorry for himself too.   Goodwin also could show leadership with the kids but i think he is more worried about his own demise.  Rudderless!

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 minute ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

It doesn't matter when it was taken.  Our Vice captain who walked past him and his two back line leaders (May and Lever) who had been sitting in the same room, all ignored him.

I disagree slightly.  How do we know that they hadn't already spoken to him?  We don't know and that's why I asked.  If they showed that vision of them coming in, sitting down etc and ignoring each other, then that's absolutely poor and you'll hear no argument from me.  I just don't like to assume that it happened like that.  Just seems like a slightly long bow to draw based on a minute of vision.  How do we know they didn't spend time with each other after the vision finished?  Or prior?  We don't.

I know it looks like I'm trying to make excuses, but really, I'm not.  I'd just like to think our players would have gotten around them outside of the small piece of vision that was shown.  

[Demon3 2,541]

If you review that game and i assume (hard to say sometimes) they will it will be litany of errors and poor set up, fumbles, arguing, lack of leadership, devoid of structure and the stark reality that they again picked the wrong side, didnt adapt when they saw the weather and remove Pruess and one way running until the first 15 minutes of the last quarter. A lack of creativity from teh coaches box, why move May in teh last qtr, why not at half time, Taberner wasnt going to dominate in teh wet, Hibbo could have played on him. Langdon played on the wrong wing, absolute u/12 mistakes, Fritsch our only goal kicker all year starts as aloose man in defence and Melksham tagging Fyfe.. we have a good tagger in Harmes, who all year has looked lost because he does not know his role then he gets injured and they decide to tag Fyfe with a bloke who cant run, its like he has hobbles on.. its mind boggling... 

It was utterly diabolical. I can take the Sydney loss, i think they looked really stuft, and thats going to happen, but last night they ran out with a white flag and continue to raise it all match. 

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

3 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I disagree slightly.  How do we know that they hadn't already spoken to him?  We don't know and that's why I asked.  If they showed that vision of them coming in, sitting down etc and ignoring each other, then that's absolutely poor and you'll hear no argument from me.  I just don't like to assume that it happened like that.  Just seems like a slightly long bow to draw based on a minute of vision.  How do we know they didn't spend time with each other after the vision finished?  Or prior?  We don't.

I know it looks like I'm trying to make excuses, but really, I'm not.  I'd just like to think our players would have gotten around them outside of the small piece of vision that was shown.  

Have you sent Riv an e-hug?

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, Mazer Rackham said:

Have you sent Riv an e-hug?

Three actually.

[drdrake 3,187]

10 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Watched this myself and thought that something really is not right.  They are not in this together at all.   Only time this year i have seen the change rooms and something positive after a loss was Petracca going around patting people on the backs and saying "keep your head up" and trying to keep spirits up.

Gawn is captain and should be all over this...encourage the kids.   Viney is vice captain and should be all over this but is as thick as a brick, i am not sure he would see it or even know what sympathy or empathy entail.  May would be absolutely gutted to be missing finals again....normally i think he would be comforting others but after that was likely feeling quite sorry for himself too.   Goodwin also could show leadership with the kids but i think he is more worried about his own demise.  Rudderless!

I loved seeing May, Lever and Rivers express their emotions they have they did, especially May and Rivers they both were extremely upset, these are players that are emotional great need to see more of that and invested in the performance for the club they play for.  That was 3 players that knew what this outcome meant to the club, I wonder how many more felt the same way.

Edited September 8, 2020 by drdrake