POSTGAME: Rd 14 vs St. Kilda

[Adam The God 30,218]

34 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

We only laid 2 tables in the 2nd quarter. 

That wld normally bite us in the bum

I agree that it would bite the old Melbourne that was almost completely reliant on stoppage dominance and contested possession.

Our game is actually not that reliant on tackling though. It's about cutting off angles, corralling, denying the opposition dangerous areas by guarding space or manning the mark on the corridor side, forcing teams down the line to our set ups, or across the ground, where the zone moves across (with work rate like last night) and denies teams the easy exit. We've a stronger focus on around the ground stoppages than centre bounce stoppages when we're playing teams that can hurt us on the outside with pace.

I think we've shown great flexibility with game style from Round 2 onwards. We haven't always executed, but to me we have two very clear styles that we can flick between now, depending on the opposition. This might be more appropriate in @binman's tactics thread but...

1) is the game that works against chaos and speed - the zone sits back, the front half corralls and forces the down the line kick or the switch, the zone moves with the switch and on it goes.

and 2) is the three wall forward half game that is more aggressive, but not an 18 man headless chook press (like 2018) and is about a front half territory game. 

I reckon we're more likely to play "2" versus the lower sides and the sides where we can get on top with CPs and centre stoppages, and we're more likely to revert to the more defensive "1" system for teams on our level that play with speed and control. I'd love to play Geelong or Richmond again. If we bring the work rate, tackling's important, particularly in midfield, but two-way running to ensure we cover the ground properly is more important, and I think we'd give both of those teams a real crack.

I'm in agreement with the sentiment that we need to get more out of our forwards, but I'm not sure how to balance that. I'd certainly play Harmes forward. I think he may well come in for Jones or Vandenberg.

We also need to find a bit more centre stoppage connection between Max (who is clearly still not 100% fit in my mind) and the mids. We played more defensive in our stoppage set ups last night, which I really liked, very basketball-like. That said, we lost almost all the centre clearances, so it wasn't working to fully neutralise the opposition. We were far better with around the ground stoppages though, where we could clog up the space and ensure the opposition mids couldn't get it on the outside. This is development! And I'm glad we're finally making progress on it. There's no doubt we still need to work on "1" though, because the ball use from back to front last night was horrendous at times. Get this right and we'll defensively strangle teams and then smash them on the scoreboard. A work in progress.

Edited August 30, 2020 by A F

[Adam The God 30,218]

18 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

The centre circle is a 10 metre diameter for reference.

That to me looks like about 12 metres. 

[loges 6,767]

1 hour ago, picket fence said:

Sheesh I dont care how defensive he is, if you get 4 possesions last week and 8 this week = 12 in two games as a forward mainly then he is not and never will be the answer! Period. Yeah I know he had a career best game a few weeks back but that would be his past present and future career best. He needs to go. Surely Harley Bennell gets a gig at this guys expense next week??

It's good to do the defensive things but there comes a time when you have to provide some offence things to go with it.

[Dr.D 1,771]

3 hours ago, Dame Gaga said:

Liked the vision of Goodwin jumping around on the sidelines shouting instructions in those last frantic seconds. Good to see the passion and pressure in action.

Also, looking to next week - confidence from a win with some inspiring performances is a wonderful thing.

about 3 years too late 

[leave it to deever 17,511]

2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Umm...he was our leading goal scorer in 2019, kicking 22.14. 

And In 2017 he kicked 26.16 

So his performance this year both in front of the goals and as a match winner around the ground are not a surprise at all.

 

Thanks  for pointing out the facts although I dont think a goal a game isnt that high and I think he was played up forward more. Sad he was the leading scorer but kudos to him for it.

In 2017 he was below several other players in goals scored but his stats are still good.

Also Im impressed with his accuracy as its not something I associated with him.

Maybe he shoukd be at Chf as much as possible.

[Adam The God 30,218]

40 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Thanks  for pointing out the facts although I dont think a goal a game isnt that high and I think he was played up forward more. Sad he was the leading scorer but kudos to him for it.

In 2017 he was below several other players in goals scored but his stats are still good.

Also Im impressed with his accuracy as its not something I associated with him.

Maybe he shoukd be at Chf as much as possible.

I like him playing deep. He's so strong in the core and has great balance, that he scares opponents deep (like Martin does), because they know he's going to stand his ground and stay on his feet. It causes panic. He's a genuine super star in the making.

I think we should use him precisely how Richmond use Martin, which is that he plays wherever we need him. 

This is where our midfield depth moving forward is going to be devastating for opposition's if we can keep the group together. Last night, we could afford to have Petracca play forward more, because we had Brayshaw, Viney and Oliver playing midfield. With Viney as stopper, I think it worked well. We have Harmes waiting in the wings too.

Edited August 30, 2020 by A F

[sue 9,102]

29 minutes ago, A F said:

That to me looks like about 12 metres. 

And max Gawn when viewed from twice as far away looks about my size 

[leave it to deever 17,511]

31 minutes ago, A F said:

I like him playing deep. He's so strong in the core and has great balance, that he scares opponents deep (like Martin does), because they know he's going to stand his ground and stay on his feet. It causes panic. He's a genuine super star in the making.

I think we should use him precisely how Richmond use Martin, which is that he plays wherever we need him. 

This is where our midfield depth moving forward is going to be devastating for opposition's if we can keep the group together. Last night, we could afford to have Petracca play forward more, because we had Brayshaw, Viney and Oliver playing midfield. With Viney as stopper, I think it worked well. We have Harmes waiting in the wings too.

I always presumed he was a poor kick at goal but his stats and last night dont support this judgement at all.

And yep having Gus in the centre gives flexibilty witb the Trac attack.

 

[Grr-owl 1,219]

2 hours ago, A F said:

If we bring the work rate, tackling's important, particularly in midfield, but two-way running to ensure we cover the ground properly is more important

Do you think Oliver ran enough? I saw him plodding along behind the ball a number of times, never catching up. Acurally I pondered if he was injured.....

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

3 minutes ago, Grr-owl said:

Do you think Oliver ran enough? I saw him plodding along behind the ball a number of times, never catching up. Acurally I pondered if he was injured.....

 

Maybe hes tired...  he is an iron man but hes human.  I don't think he has missed a game since he debuted.

[Adam The God 30,218]

18 minutes ago, Grr-owl said:

Do you think Oliver ran enough? I saw him plodding along behind the ball a number of times, never catching up. Acurally I pondered if he was injured.....

Hard to tell. He seemed really low on confidence in the first half. Steele was a good, consistent performer for them throughout the game and even though he didn't get high numbers, Sinclair burst from a few stoppages far too easily. The last goal of the second quarter came from very poor defending from Petracca that let Sinclair go. After that, whenever Trac went into the middle, he was all over Sinclair.

Hill's another match up that was interesting, because he was brilliant in the last quarter in particular and was being shadowed by Langdon at times, and then other times, I've no idea who was playing on him. I think we kind of backed Langdon to do more damage, but he tried to tighten up on Hill in the last 10 minutes or so, still Hill was dominant.

I think Oliver, Gus, Petracca and occasionally Viney still don't know what it takes to gut run a full four quarters. I don't think any of their work rate let us down last night, but I could be wrong. That first quarter point to Membrey (was it?) that came from when they cut us up off half back was poorly defended by the whole team, but I reckon the mids pushed up too high and then didn't push back hard enough. Outside of that, we seemed to be all over them and their goals came from silly little turn overs from us. 

I noticed one of the St Kilda supporters on Bigfooty said they essentially failed to create any scores themselves and that their goals came from our errors. Tidy up those errors, which will hopefully happen the longer we play this new system, and we'll give up very few chances for the opposition to score.

When Viney gave away that soft free kick to Phillips in the second, we totally had that play covered and it was pretty much the first time we let them through the zone at centre wing/half forward.

Lots of room for improvement and our mids absolutely have to lead the way here. Gut-running in midfield needs to be a prerequisite for playing at Melbourne.

Edited August 30, 2020 by A F

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

14 hours ago, 58er said:

I'm absolutely no fan of Oscar McD.  I think he is absolutely terrible.  He's the slowest reacting footballer Ive ever seen play.  Boggles my mind.

Fully agreed. We should not be having to use him in the team for much longer. As good as the proverbial '...two men missing...' ; firstly, himself at contests and chases, and secondly, the other backman covering for his predictable errors and 'no show' at the contest, leaving a free opposition forward to heap damage on our backline set-up. Suddenly, we are two men short back there.

[John Demonic 5,786]

Tonight's main event is listening to Footyology and hearing Finey review his beloved Saints losing to a club he's potted all year. Hope he enjoyed Langdons performance who he has venomously derided our recruiting of. 

 

Edited August 30, 2020 by John Demonic

[Clayton van Oliver 1,823]

Please excuse totally self indulgent post.
 

was meant to get married yesterday, but as we’ve seen 2020 is the ever changing year. Me and the missus went full, Gil-style agility and postponed it all in March. So instead we took ourselves off to the only forest in the Netherlands for some wet-weather camping (play at ground level, keep moving it forward) and I deliberately ignored the game, probably for the first time since 2009 or so. It was blissful...

...until the old man msged me and gave me the good news. Petracca a raging bull, May so solid you could build a political platform on putting him at a border, Clarrie down but lifted hugely in the last and, shock horror, Goodwin knows how to coach. In the year of constant change, I am so stoked we have changed from full-pelt ballistic chaos to structured tempo. For what it’s worth I think this game showed the player development that has come from Goodwin’s long term coaching. What has  often looked frustratingly like stubbornness and inaction to us, I am hoping, has actually been Goody testing and demanding the players to respond themselves to the game being played. They did that. It was not pretty but it feels solid.

Speaking of solid, can’t believe the rumour mill around Jack Viney going for a poo. It was certainly an over scrutinised play in the guts and I’m sure he was singing along the team song as he sat atop his throne. (Not the most analysed sporting poo in recent times though, was at Pune when Matty Renshaw had to run off with the runs in the middle of a year innings.

Anyway, Go Dees

[Brownie 5,980]

18 hours ago, Unleash Hell said:

Thst courage shown by Brown was HUGE.  After being collected to take another contested mark (altoygh a soft reversal from Max) was my hughlight of the night.

Rare courage 

Thought it was amazing he wasn't paid a free for that run back with the flight of the ball.

His opponent had no eyes for the footy at all

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

Apologies if it’s been mentioned already, just looking at some stats and was surprised to read Weid covered 11.9km, ranking him 4th highest for the game behind Langdon and Hill (12.5km each) and 2nd highest for us. Out of 97 minutes he played 95. 

Fair effort, once upon a time full forwards wouldn’t cover 12km in one year.

[Lucifers Hero 39,735]

Spargo has been charged with a 'dangerous tackle' and fined.  It seems if someone's head touches the ground they are sanctioned. 

A crazy situation when compared to the two one week suspensions were reduced to a fine last week by the Tribunal.  Charle's tackle was nothing like those sling tackles.  Different clubs, different rules.

The club should appeal it at the Tribunal.  

Edit:  "Based on the available evidence, the incident was assessed as Careless Conduct, Low Impact and High Contact. The incident was classified as a $2500 sanction as a second offence. The player can accept a $1500 sanction with an early plea".

That looks like one of the highest fines handed out this year. 

That was only the 4th game he has played this year.  Can anyone recall the first offence?

 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[Wiseblood 24,637]

2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Spargo has been charged with a 'dangerous tackle' and fined.  It seems if someone's head touches the ground they are sanctioned. 

A crazy situation when compared to the two one week suspensions were reduced to a fine last week by the Tribunal.  Charle's tackle was nothing like those sling tackles.  Different clubs, different rules.

The club should appeal it at the Tribunal.  

Which tackle was it, LH?  I can't even recall him laying a tackle where I thought he might be in even a little bit of trouble.

[Lucifers Hero 39,735]

3 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Which tackle was it, LH?  I can't even recall him laying a tackle where I thought he might be in even a little bit of trouble.

It was on Coffield.  I think it was in the 2nd or 3rd qtr. 

I remember seeing it and thought nothing to worry about.  There were dozens of tackles like Charlie's this weekend.  But obviously Christian wants to make another statement and of course he hits the Demons. 

Edited August 30, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

14 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Apologies if it’s been mentioned already, just looking at some stats and was surprised to read Weid covered 11.9km, ranking him 4th highest for the game behind Langdon and Hill (12.5km each) and 2nd highest for us. Out of 97 minutes he played 95. 

 

So he has a huge tank too?  Did not expect that. 

Surprising he doesn't get more of the footy and take more marks with that sort of ground covered, but that will come soon.  Hes going to be awesome in 2021.

[Sir Why You Little 37,031]

41 minutes ago, John Demonic said:

Tonight's main event is listening to Footyology and hearing Finey review his beloved Saints losing to a club he's potted all year. Hope he enjoyed Langdons performance who he has venomously derided our recruiting of. 

 

Poor old Finey. He would have hit the bottle last night

[Jaded No More 68,897]

9 hours ago, Nasher said:

Soooooo, I was out and didn’t see a second of this game. I gather it went okay? ?

[censored] non Victorians showing off being outside! ?

[titan_uranus 24,993]

6 hours ago, Macca said:

I'm not advocating that every one of our forwards pushes up so that as a consequence there is no one to kick to. 

Petracca in 2019 played that high half forward position very well but ... the players further afield were ineffectual.  So we wasted him.

If players like Spargo or Hannan were to work their butts off to gather 20+ possessions (like Petracca often did in 2019) then we'd be better off.  But they don't and it's probably because they are incapable of doing so.

Check out the way Richmond go about it ... their forwards often roam far and wide (when they are on song) and they work really hard for each other.  And their defensive pressure is immense.  That's the template AF.

IMO the players we need to be pushing up the ground more are Hannan and Melksham. Hannan's a good mark and helps with our scoring chains when he gets up the ground. Melksham's kicking is vital to breaking down good zones.

Spargo and Pickett (and players who come in to play that smaller role) I'm happy to see stay a bit deeper, both feeding off the contests created by Weideman/Brown/Gawn/etc. and pressuring their ball carriers in our forward 50.

Either way, we need more from our forwards as it's not sustainable to rely on Petracca dominance like last night.

[Pates 9,660]

45 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Spargo has been charged with a 'dangerous tackle' and fined.  It seems if someone's head touches the ground they are sanctioned. 

A crazy situation when compared to the two one week suspensions were reduced to a fine last week by the Tribunal.  Charle's tackle was nothing like those sling tackles.  Different clubs, different rules.

The club should appeal it at the Tribunal.  

Edit:  "Based on the available evidence, the incident was assessed as Careless Conduct, Low Impact and High Contact. The incident was classified as a $2500 sanction as a second offence. The player can accept a $1500 sanction with an early plea".

That looks like one of the highest fines handed out this year. 

That was only the 4th game he has played this year.  Can anyone recall the first offence?

That tells you all you need to know about how broken the system is, a clearly worse tackle gets a lesser sentence than Spargo’s just because his head touches the ground. And for that matter the Saints player was fine. 

Ludicrously bad system. 

[Dame Gaga 2,453]

54 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Spargo has been charged with a 'dangerous tackle' and fined.  It seems if someone's head touches the ground they are sanctioned. 

A crazy situation when compared to the two one week suspensions were reduced to a fine last week by the Tribunal.  Charle's tackle was nothing like those sling tackles.  Different clubs, different rules.

The club should appeal it at the Tribunal.  

Edit:  "Based on the available evidence, the incident was assessed as Careless Conduct, Low Impact and High Contact. The incident was classified as a $2500 sanction as a second offence. The player can accept a $1500 sanction with an early plea".

That looks like one of the highest fines handed out this year. 

That was only the 4th game he has played this year.  Can anyone recall the first offence?

 

Spargo was charged with Rough Conduct ( Dangerous Tackle ) against John Noble, Collingwood, during the third quarter of the Round 12 match at the Gabba, August 15.  $1000 fine with early plea.