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CHANGES: Rd 14 vs St Kilda

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  On 24/08/2020 at 07:44, Lord Nev said:

Agree with this. I'm hoping we go for another small or two in as I think we have too many mid-sized forwards in who don't pressure enough.

Also, this is from SEN today:

Prior to the Bulldogs game, Melbourne had settled on a forward mix that provided marking targets and defensive pressure. The late change due to Nathan Jones’ quad injury brought Mitch Hannan into the side, and the Weideman-McDonald-Fritsch-Hannan-Melksham mix was unable to pressure the Dogs’ defensive half attack, leaving too much to Spargo and Pickett. In their third quarter burst, the Dogs kicked four of their six goals from defensive half chains, as the Dees were unable to pressure the Dogs switch.

A slightly smaller and more mobile forward mix will create more defensive pressure, as it showed in the Dees impressive win over the Pies.

The teams on the fringe of the 8: Where they're strong and where they must improve

 

Great post mate.

It makes no sense to me that we continue to play Viney in our midfield (crowding out the better, cleaner users) and Harmes at half back, when both could be put to great use up forward.

St Kilda will do exactly what the Bulldogs did unless we do something about our tackling...

    • Like 2
     
      On 24/08/2020 at 06:52, Bitter but optimistic said:

    I notice a number of posters calling for 5 or even 6 changes. That is desperation  stations and wont happen.

    With the aim of some sort of team stability, I would reckon 3 or, tops, 4. Now as to who they might be, I must as usual, admit to bafflement.

    Sparrow is a given. I guess if Max is right, Pruess will go but he is stiff as he's more than earned a spot on his performances.

    Tmac is a real question mark but he did take a couple of grabs against the dogs but missed a couple of others. Had he taken them and converted - it's a good game. In fairness though the conditions were not conducive to marking. He'll stay.

    I love Jones but even if he comes up fit, his lack of pace would be exposed against the aints.

    Love to see Bennell in because he has pace and classy skills. Skills were clearly in deficit against the Dogs. He's received a few whacks on this forum for being soft. Unfairly I believe. He's not naturally a bash and crash type but, even if he were, he's still got work to do in simply building up confidence in his body. 

    Spargo was ordinary but will get another chance. Kozzie is the future not the present but , as I said on another thread, how else is he going to learn?

    Anyway just musing over a Shiraz.

    Out. Sparrow, Pruess and ???

    In.   Max, Bennell and Rivers.

     

     

     

    Agree, plus kossie needs a rest, as does AVB- lot of footy on that dodgy foot.

    AFD for me 

    • Like 1
     

    It won't make a difference who we bring in if Goodwin stays like an Easter Island statue in the coaches box

      On 24/08/2020 at 08:05, jnrmac said:

    It won't make a difference who we bring in if Goodwin stays like an Easter Island statue in the coaches box

    Here we go......

    Dees win and it’s all the players 

    Dees lose and it’s Goodys fault

    the players gave no effort on Saturday, nothing to do with Goody 

    • Like 4

      On 24/08/2020 at 05:43, poita said:

    Hannan and Spargo only look capable of getting a touch when the side wins by ten goals.

    Tomlinson has the ideal build for AFL, but coasts along at about 40% of his capacity.

    Pickett is the ultimate "nearly" footballer.

    I can't see us playing finals now, so we really have to get games into the likes of Rivers, Baker and Bedford. I don't think Bedford and Baker will make it, but at least we can make a decision at year end based on actual performances rather than guesswork. Better than going back to Hunt, Neal-Bullen (next week) and others who have fallen short on multiple occasions.

    It shows some people have no idea about football. Let me draw a comparison here. One Gryan Miers from geelong is a third year forward. He has played just about every game since the start of last year it takes patience and development. We've been good for years at letting players stagnate in the twos and dropping and repicking places rashly. You've already written off pickett after 13 weeks. Bedford hasnt even reached the end of his initial draft contract yet and hes already not worth ur time. Youve gotta trust the process. and Spargo has done an ok job but whats dropping him gonna do to his self-confidence? how does he learn to play afl footy without actually running out in the side?

    and tomlinson is welcome in my back half ahead of oscar and smith any day

      On 24/08/2020 at 04:56, picket fence said:

    INTER FROM  BROWN, BEDFORD, BAKER,  PRUESS,  LOCKHART

    Time to get ruthless 

    OUT   SPARGO,  JONES , T MAC, HARMES, PICKETT, MELKSHAM AND FRITSCH

    INNS  MAX , RIVERS, BROWN, BENNELL, BAKER, BEDFORD HANNAN

    bro youve brought hannan into a side hes already in... face palms and youve played a five man bench... 

    • Haha 2
      On 24/08/2020 at 08:08, Demons11 said:

    Here we go......

    Dees win and it’s all the players 

    Dees lose and it’s Goodys fault

    the players gave no effort on Saturday, nothing to do with Goody 

    He's got one job. Get the players ready to play. He failed

     

    And when they're not playing as expected do something about it

    He failed

    Edited by jnrmac

      On 24/08/2020 at 08:10, jnrmac said:

    He's got one job. Get the players ready to play. He failed

     

    And when they're not playing as expected do something about it

    He failed

    ?

    Edited by Demons11

    • Like 1
    • Sad 1
     
      On 24/08/2020 at 08:10, jnrmac said:

    He's got one job. Get the players ready to play. He failed

     

    And when they're not playing as expected do something about it

    He failed

    They were up at half time and fluffed it in the 3rd, nothing to do with not being ready.  So let me guess against Collingwood he did something completely different?

    First change I would make is to bring back Max if he is good to go for Preuss. I like the fact that we have Preuss as back up in the ruck but Max gives us so much more.

    Second change I would make is to drop Harmes for Rivers. I understand the call for Harmes to be given a role as a tagger and I do not agree, but his form is so far below his best at the moment I do not think he rates a place in the 22, give him a break to get his head right and confidence back. his disposal has been very bad so far this season.

    Third and last change for the Saints would be Jordan for Sparrow. I think it is time to see what he has and what he might bring to the team. He has been on the list for a bit and I would like to see how we have developed him.

    A couple of players from lat week need to step up or they may find themselves 'managed' in the next few weeks. Looking at AvB, Hannan, Melksham and a couple of others.

    Besides the three changes above I can see an argument for a couple more, Bedford or Bennell for either of Spargo or Pickett. Brown for TMac. However, I think that we will change a maximum of 3.

     

    • Like 1

      On 24/08/2020 at 08:41, Demons11 said:

    They were up at half time and fluffed it in the 3rd, nothing to do with not being ready.  So let me guess against Collingwood he did something completely different?

    Nah he didn’t do anything in that game it was all the players. ?

      On 24/08/2020 at 08:10, jnrmac said:

    He's got one job. Get the players ready to play. He failed

     

    And when they're not playing as expected do something about it

    He failed

    I don't think you understand the role of the modern coach...

      On 24/08/2020 at 07:44, Lord Nev said:

    Agree with this. I'm hoping we go for another small or two in as I think we have too many mid-sized forwards in who don't pressure enough.

    Also, this is from SEN today:

    Prior to the Bulldogs game, Melbourne had settled on a forward mix that provided marking targets and defensive pressure. The late change due to Nathan Jones’ quad injury brought Mitch Hannan into the side, and the Weideman-McDonald-Fritsch-Hannan-Melksham mix was unable to pressure the Dogs’ defensive half attack, leaving too much to Spargo and Pickett. In their third quarter burst, the Dogs kicked four of their six goals from defensive half chains, as the Dees were unable to pressure the Dogs switch.

    A slightly smaller and more mobile forward mix will create more defensive pressure, as it showed in the Dees impressive win over the Pies.

    The teams on the fringe of the 8: Where they're strong and where they must improve

     

    U must be Kidding as much as I like Nathan Jones he is slow, and to suggest that the structure was then comprimised is less than clutching at straws!!! You are clutching at Toothpicks!! Nup GARBAGE!

      On 24/08/2020 at 10:21, A F said:

    I don't think you understand the role of the modern coach...

     So... fill us all in, What EXACTLY is the "Role" of the modern coach??

      On 24/08/2020 at 10:43, picket fence said:

    U must be Kidding as much as I like Nathan Jones he is slow, and to suggest that the structure was then comprimised is less than clutching at straws!!! You are clutching at Toothpicks!! Nup GARBAGE!

    I didn't write the article mate, but if you take a breath and read it again you'll see it doesn't say that Jones being out made it compromised, it just says the lineup featuring a lot of tall and mid sized forwards left a lot of the pressure on the shoulders of Spargo and Pickett.

    If you read my post you'll see the point I was making was about having a smaller, quicker forward line with less mid sized forwards.

    • Like 2

      On 24/08/2020 at 10:49, Lord Nev said:

    I didn't write the article mate, but if you take a breath and read it again you'll see it doesn't say that Jones being out made it compromised, it just says the lineup featuring a lot of tall and mid sized forwards left a lot of the pressure on the shoulders of Spargo and Pickett.

    If you read my post you'll see the point I was making was about having a smaller, quicker forward line with less mid sized forwards.

    Yeah I get that,, but its a Rhetorical Question to suggest that Nathan Jones injury upset the team structure is in my belief pure Folly!

    Edited by picket fence

      On 24/08/2020 at 10:47, picket fence said:

     So... fill us all in, What EXACTLY is the "Role" of the modern coach??

    It'd be multilayered. It's educating the players on the way the coach wants to play. It's encouraging and nurturing the assets each player has. It's holding the players to account when they don't deliver. It's helping players become better players and better people. It's managing the mental health implications of a COVID world and the impact this has on work/life balance.

    I'm sure it's a myriad of things greater than simply making sure the players rock up. Where's the player accountability in that?

    Goodwin will be judged on his team's output at the end of every season. We can also judge him game to game, quarter to quarter if we want. But let's not pretend the coach simply motivates and ensures players are ready on game day. It's far more varied and complex than that. 

    Edited by A F

    • Like 1
      On 24/08/2020 at 12:03, A F said:

    It'd be multilayered. It's educating the players on the way the coach wants to play. It's encouraging and nurturing the assets each player has. It's holding the players to account when they don't deliver. It's helping players become better players and better people. It's managing the mental health implications of a COVID world and the impact this has on work/life balance.

    I'm sure it's a myriad of things greater than simply making sure the players rock up. Where's the player accountability in that?

    Goodwin will be judged on his team's output at the end of every season. We can also judge him game to game, quarter to quarter if we want. But let's not pretend the coach simply motivates and ensures players are ready on game day. It's far more varied and complex than that. 

    Of course it is - but all that work is to "ensure the players are ready on game day"...

    He's not a counsellor - he is trying to get a consistent performance out of group of blokes that have struggled to find it.

    I like the way we play and I don't care about not having a "Plan B" as I see that as a fallacy for good teams (diff tactics do not equal diff ways of playing) but where do they go at times? I can understand it if it skills, but it's not... I can understand if it's talent, but it's not...

    I would make minimal changes this week and see how the players respond. We can go in the other direction too - we have the style of play and the talent.

    Now to execute.

    • Like 2
      On 24/08/2020 at 12:26, rpfc said:

    Of course it is - but all that work is to "ensure the players are ready on game day"...

    He's not a counsellor - he is trying to get a consistent performance out of group of blokes that have struggled to find it.

    I like the way we play and I don't care about not having a "Plan B" as I see that as a fallacy for good teams (diff tactics do not equal diff ways of playing) but where do they go at times? I can understand it if it skills, but it's not... I can understand if it's talent, but it's not...

    I would make minimal changes this week and see how the players respond. We can go in the other direction too - we have the style of play and the talent.

    Now to execute.

    Agreed.

    Edited by A F

      On 24/08/2020 at 08:41, Demons11 said:

    They were up at half time and fluffed it in the 3rd, nothing to do with not being ready.  So let me guess against Collingwood he did something completely different?

    I assume being 'up at 1/2 time' means on the scoreboard only and luckily as another poster said here entirely due to Steven May saving the day.

    TheDees  midfield was being creamed in the first half and it was a matter of time unless Goody dealt with the Dogs run and the Bont.

    He didn't and it was over 5 minutes into the 3rd quarter

    • Like 1

      On 24/08/2020 at 10:21, A F said:

    I don't think you understand the role of the modern coach...

    Any coaches' job is to prepare the players, weld them as a team and win games 

    nothing about modern methods needed there

    • Like 1
      On 24/08/2020 at 21:33, Demon17 said:

    I assume being 'up at 1/2 time' means on the scoreboard only and luckily as another poster said here entirely due to Steven May saving the day.

    TheDees  midfield was being creamed in the first half and it was a matter of time unless Goody dealt with the Dogs run and the Bont.

    He didn't and it was over 5 minutes into the 3rd quarter

    that is exactly how it happened.Well summarised 17!

    • Like 1
      On 24/08/2020 at 07:44, Lord Nev said:

    Agree with this. I'm hoping we go for another small or two in as I think we have too many mid-sized forwards in who don't pressure enough.

    Also, this is from SEN today:

    Prior to the Bulldogs game, Melbourne had settled on a forward mix that provided marking targets and defensive pressure. The late change due to Nathan Jones’ quad injury brought Mitch Hannan into the side, and the Weideman-McDonald-Fritsch-Hannan-Melksham mix was unable to pressure the Dogs’ defensive half attack, leaving too much to Spargo and Pickett. In their third quarter burst, the Dogs kicked four of their six goals from defensive half chains, as the Dees were unable to pressure the Dogs switch.

    A slightly smaller and more mobile forward mix will create more defensive pressure, as it showed in the Dees impressive win over the Pies.

    The teams on the fringe of the 8: Where they're strong and where they must improve

     

     

      On 24/08/2020 at 10:43, picket fence said:

    U must be Kidding as much as I like Nathan Jones he is slow, and to suggest that the structure was then comprimised is less than clutching at straws!!! You are clutching at Toothpicks!! Nup GARBAGE!

    Agree the article is a nonsense article if it is suggesting Jones in or out is the solution to our forward pressure woes.  His inclusion might go some way towards helping (and even the amount here is probably minute given his lack of run down speed...in fact almost everyone who plays forward is ahead of him here including Hannan 3rd, Kozzie 2nd, LJ, Fritta, Harley etc).  Even backmen, Tomlinson, Harmes and Ed average more tackles i50 than Jones.

    To suggest the lack of pressure difference was Hannan v Jones is complete garbage.  In fact Hannan (usually) brings a greater level of pressure here than Jones (if his role is to play mostly HF vs say a part time winger).

    But it does highlight an issue and that is aside from Hunt (ranked 1st for average tackles inside 50 this season and 10th in the AFL overall), Kozzie (2nd & 41st.  Not bad for a first year player but a damning outcome on the rest of the seniors up forward imv, particularly Melk and Fritta), Hannan & ANB (both equal 3rd & 49th/AFL) we start to drop away from there.  Mind you there are other ways to pressure up forward other than tackling but that's the only statistical indicator we have at present as a recorded gauge other than trolling through a stack of replays to look for pressure acts, spoils & smothers.

    Let's look at some of those top ranked tacklers i50.  Hunt, might be No.1 for us but he's terribly out of form and not getting a game.  If he does get one who knows, it might be a role up the ground.  In other words he's having zero input at this point.

    Kozzie at No.2  Great effort from the 1st year rookie but you can't just hang your hat on this as a small forward.  Sure he does get involved and does some other good work including bringing others into scoring opportunities but at some stage he also needs to start hitting the scoreboard on a regular basis.  I have confidence he will but the question is how far away is that and we shouldn't have to rely solely on a rookie to make the difference.

    Hannan & AVB.  Both can't stay in the team for more than a few weeks and when they do they may bring a degree of forward pressure but both also lack the ability to bring a consistently acceptable level of impact on game day.  Some days they'll hit the mark, others they go missing.

    Let's face it, aside from Kozzie, the crew that presently run through that forward line just don't inspire in terms of worrying the opposition backs with consistent pressure.  It's no wonder the dogs waltzed out of our 50 with ease on Saturday.

    So what's the solution?  Honestly i just don't think there's a feasible one in terms of ins/outs on this present list.  We can ask for greater efforts from some of our mids like Clarry & Tracc who are already bringing it a little.  Then there's Gus who brings only a little.  Spargo up and down can surely find something this week.  So that's some extra potential oomph from those four.

    There are three other options, one of which we've used a little but certainly not enough so far imv.  Seemed to work against the Pies.  Bring Jack into a mostly HF role (not mostly against the Pies but did appear to play more game time forward from what i witnessed vs the Doggies match) which allows Harmes to play a part time mid field role also pushing forward and bringing pressure.  Rivers comes in for Harmes for Fritta or Melk (neither of those two pressure much at all up forward, especially Melk).  I'm thinking Fritta at this point given Melk at least kicks accurately with his limited opportunities.

    Brown comes in for T-Mac to see if he can make a difference as a 2nd KF and part time relief ruckman.  He might also bring a tad more forward pressure than T-Mac at this point.

    Edited by Rusty Nails

     

    Looking at St Kilda they play quite tall with Membrey, King, Marshall, Battle and Ryder all going through the forward 50 at times.

    My hopes for the selection table:

    Out: Preuss (only because there's a better option), Hibberd, Hannan & Sparrow

    Ins: Gawn, Rivers, O McDonald & Bedford

    B:       Lockhart             May             McDonald

    HB:    Salem                 Lever            Rivers

    C :      Tomlinson          Oliver           Langdon

    HF:      Pickett              TMac            Harmes

    F:         Fritsch              Weid              Melksham

    R:        Gawn                Brayshaw       Viney

    Int:     Petracca           Bedford          Spargo         Vanders

    Key reasons:

    1. McDonald to take King & May to take Membrey with Lever taking the third tall who runs through at different times.

    2. Tomlinson back onto the wing and told to run all day between the arcs.

    3. Bedford, Pickett and Spargs told to constantly tackle and pressure.

    4. Harmes to tag Jack Steele for majority of the game.

    5. Vanders to switch between half forward and wing at times.

    We need to change up a few things otherwise we will keep getting the same result. Smash teams who can't match us in the midfield but then lose to teams who can or who have elite outside ball use. 

    We also need to stop the oppositions best mid each week to give our mids the chance to dominate.

      On 24/08/2020 at 22:46, Action Jackson said:

    Looking at St Kilda they play quite tall with Membrey, King, Marshall, Battle and Ryder all going through the forward 50 at times.

    My hopes for the selection table:

    Out: Preuss (only because there's a better option), Hibberd, Hannan & Sparrow

    Ins: Gawn, Rivers, O McDonald & Bedford

    B:       Lockhart             May             McDonald

    HB:    Salem                 Lever            Rivers

    C :      Tomlinson          Oliver           Langdon

    HF:      Pickett              TMac            Harmes

    F:         Fritsch              Weid              Melksham

    R:        Gawn                Brayshaw       Viney

    Int:     Petracca           Bedford          Spargo         Vanders

    Key reasons:

    1. McDonald to take King & May to take Membrey with Lever taking the third tall who runs through at different times.

    2. Tomlinson back onto the wing and told to run all day between the arcs.

    3. Bedford, Pickett and Spargs told to constantly tackle and pressure.

    4. Harmes to tag Jack Steele for majority of the game.

    5. Vanders to switch between half forward and wing at times.

    We need to change up a few things otherwise we will keep getting the same result. Smash teams who can't match us in the midfield but then lose to teams who can or who have elite outside ball use. 

    We also need to stop the oppositions best mid each week to give our mids the chance to dominate.

    No way Hibberd is being dropped IMO... had a really good 4 weeks.. bit down on the weekend.. not on his own there.

    Edited by Demon3

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