POSTGAME: Rd 13 vs Western Bulldogs

[titan_uranus 25,018]

4 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

Wrong TU.  It's not personal he just doesn't bring a game that's anywhere near the level we paid and are continuing to pay imo.  He is a good intercept mark as i've said on many occasions but a very limited footballer with ball in hand.

Your analysis of Lever is not based in the evidence though, which is why I can't help but feel it's simply personal.

He's been nailing his kicks for a month now.

He's also more than just an intercept mark, although that is one of his strong suits.

The way he and Lever (along with Hibberd and Salem) have been setting up behind the ball has been critical to our improvement. The way the Dogs were able to break that down today is one of the main reasons we lost.

4 hours ago, A F said:

IMV he exploited the ruck position all day, precisely because he sees how one dimensional the position is. We were probably caught off guard by a smaller ruckman in the first quarter and slowly we readjusted (Preuss using his body more against the smaller opponent) and did enough to force Beveridge to change tact by half time. He recognised they needed a more physical contest (ie halve it) and Bruce gave them that and our mids completely failed to defend transition and their mids got it on the outside time and again.

I agree with you in that it is rarely ever just one thing, but I think 90%+ of today was on the lack of work rate from the players. I'm not sure a few tweaks around the sides like sending Harmes to Bontempelli would have done much. We weren't clean enough all day around stoppage, our ball use exiting stoppage, probably due to poor work rate from our forwards, was ordinary too.

I just think if we'd brought work rate the Bulldogs can't switch and are continually forced to go down the line, where we then neutralise or win the next clearance. If we bring tackle pressure across half forward, we don't enable easy transition from one end of the ground to the other. Yet, we did. 

What you've outlined about the ruck changes Beveridge made is my point exactly: it's not "junk", there are just different approaches to it. They tried being cute, it worked for a bit then didn't, so they went back to a traditional set up, but chose Bruce over English (for two reasons I think - Bruce was giving them nothing in the forward line, and English was being outworked by Preuss).

Agree on work rate. Their switches opened the fat side up and our zone didn't work across fast enough. We also saw mids failing to run defensively again. Old habits creeping back in when we're under pressure.

[WERRIDEE 5,479]

3 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Your analysis of Lever is not based in the evidence though, which is why I can't help but feel it's simply personal.

He's been nailing his kicks for a month now.

He's also more than just an intercept mark, although that is one of his strong suits.

The way he and Lever (along with Hibberd and Salem) have been setting up behind the ball has been critical to our improvement. The way the Dogs were able to break that down today is one of the main reasons we lost.

I thought the way Lever and May set up was the only reason why we lost by 5 goals instead of 10 goals. Don't understand the Lever hatred he was easily in our best 2 the only 2 good players on the ground. Fritsch and Viney were ok but the rest were passengers.

[layzie 33,796]

I'm done, gonna play some Red Dead online and do more running in that than we did today. Hope you all have a good evening. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

1 hour ago, Hellofatime said:

How about our dud coach who has no answers in a crisis?

Honestly, I don't know. I see both sides of the argument, the players workrate not being up to scratch is what lost the game. But also it is the coaches job to move things around to give us the advantage and the best chance to win when things are going against us - otherwise he's just basically hoping for the best.

On the workrate, I don't know if it's as simple as that. There have been too many instances of this occurring now in crucial games/against better sides who put the pressure on for it to be merely coincidence. Either our players go to water when they come up against a good team or one who puts the pressure on because it's all too hard or the gameplans of the better sides strangle and confuse us so effectively that it appears as though our players are slacking off or just having an "off day". 

Honestly I don't know which is worse.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

1 hour ago, Earl Hood said:

I don’t think Fritsch is our first order problem. 10 marks, 3 contested, 1 goal 2 and 1 out of bounds! Should have kicked 2 to 3 but he is not our real problem. Where were the other forwards? Weid tried hard and took some strong marks for 2 goals but the rest? Melk kicking from 20m has the ball touched FFS. AVB? Spargo, Hannan? Pickett needs a rest. TMac is struggling but with no Jackson we need him for the ruck work and bringing the ball to the ground up forward. We have too many passengers each week. Not sure there is much in the reserves to bring in that makes a difference. Jones in, maybe Bennell. Maybe more so we need the engine room to fire up next week, Tracc, Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney, need to do better guys! 

Our mid-small forwards are a massive issue. They are largely ineffectual 3 out of 4 games. Hannan, VDB, Pickett, Spargo and Melksham will have one game in 4 or so where they kick 2 or 3 goals, present and lay some tackles. The other 3 games they'll get 6 touches, 0 goals 0 or 1 tackle and be pretty much invisible for the whole game. Bennell has been the same when he has played. TMac is useless, can't take a mark to save himself, can't present, can't do anything at ground level he's just a massive liability. Fristch gets chances each game but often doesn't capitalise. Fair enough he's not going to average 3 goals a game but he should be kicking 3 goals a game every 2 or 3 games with the opportunities he's getting.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Dr. Gonzo

[Deesprate 1,324]

Sitting at the ground today the least problem we had was May and Lever. By far was the complete lack of accountability to stop the Dogs running from defence. There were loose players everywhere plus their disposal skills put ours to shame. Add the way we butcher the ball the score flattered us. After seven years of rebuild we are such an average football club and the management and coaching group need to own that. Hate to be the voice of doom but I can’t see us being any better in the short term

[adonski 12,129]

Reckon the issue was the 7 day break - bring back the four dayers!

[Adam The God 30,249]

25 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Our mid-small forwards are a massive issue. They are largely ineffectual 3 out of 4 games. Hannan, VDB, Pickett, Spargo and Melksham will have one game in 4 or so where they kick 2 or 3 goals, present and lay some tackles. The other 3 games they'll get 6 touches, 0 goals 0 or 1 tackle and be pretty much invisible for the whole game. Bennell has been the same when he has played. TMac is useless, can't take a mark to save himself, can't present, can't do anything at ground level he's just a massive liability. Fristch gets chances each game but often doesn't capitalise. Fair enough he's not going to average 3 goals a game but he should be kicking 3 goals a game every 2 or 3 games with the opportunities he's getting.

It's interesting that the game plan is being built around a superior midfield dominance and extreme pressure from our forwards. These are the two areas that often go missing in work rate and rarely click consistently.

It makes enough sense that the element that requires the least talent (work rate and fitness) is apart of your game plan, because it means you should be able to have a bunch of plug and play small forwards and pressure forwards to come in. It's definitely a major problem with inconsistency. Even when our midfield is firing, often there will be 1 or 2 forwards who have those stats that you mention, particularly the tackle stat. 

I do wonder if it's a bit of case of the forwardline being a sum of all its parts. If one or two chains are loose, the rest of the thing falls down. I think it holds up better than that though, because usually Melksham, Fritsch and Bennell barely tackle, Hannan comes in and out of games, ANB is on and off, Spargo struggles to play four quarters. Kozzie fumbles more often than not. There's inconsistency across that group. Weideman finally seems to be building some consistency, but his kicking is inconsistent. Tom is as you say, a liability at times. It's a piecemeal forwardline at the moment without Petty or Jackson able to come in. I don't rate him, but I'm surprised we bothered to sign Brown, because we've basically not played him. 

I'm a bit exhausted after today to be honest.

[binman 42,942]

45 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Honestly, I don't know. I see both sides of the argument, the players workrate not being up to scratch is what lost the game. But also it is the coaches job to move things around to give us the advantage and the best chance to win when things are going against us - otherwise he's just basically hoping for the best.

On the workrate, I don't know if it's as simple as that. There have been too many instances of this occurring now in crucial games/against better sides who put the pressure on for it to be merely coincidence. Either our players go to water when they come up against a good team or one who puts the pressure on because it's all too hard or the gameplans of the better sides strangle and confuse us so effectively that it appears as though our players are slacking off or just having an "off day". 

Honestly I don't know which is worse.

I don't think the dogs put any extra pressure on us in the third  which is where lost the game.

If so its not about buckling under pressure.

Our mids and forwards simply did not do enough defensive running and they have the players who can exploit that just about more than any other club because they have so many excellent field kicks. And are drilled to switch and take the kick on. Which is bevo's game plan

That is is why I was worried about this game beforehand.

We didnt do enough defensive running in the first half either, particularly tbe first quarter. We were dead lucky to be in front at half time.

In the third we gifted them goals through turnovers and we missed our opportunities. And that is because our Achilles heel is how many players we have with terrible kicking technique. Wind of the sort today, just like rain  exposes poor technique. As it did today.

For me the real issue is why the players did not work hard enough today. That is as much on the coach as the players. They did not have a single excuse not to be ready.

Edited August 22, 2020 by binman

[Half forward flank 1,022]

Some were critical of Preuss. At one centre bounce Brayshaw set up directly in front of Preuss, goal side. Presuu tapped it direcrtly to him. At the last minute a Bulldog mid simply stepped in front of Brayshaw and received the ball. Brayshaw had zero awareness of his player.

[John Demonic 5,795]

12 hours ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

Maybe he was really only hired to be Goodys weights spotter in the gym?

[John Demonic 5,795]

6 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

TMac is useless, can't take a mark to save himself, can't present, can't do anything at ground level he's just a massive liability. .

There was an unforgivable bit of play by the Dogs defender Gardiner today when he chopped the arms of Tmac and gave away a free. Everyone knows you just have to sit back and wait for Tom to drop the mark with  both arms out stretched. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by John Demonic

[Forest Demon 4,681]

I was at the game yesterday and we were pretty comprehensively outclassed, some notes below.

- Pressure from the forwards was terrible, they had so many options bringing it out, it was just a procession

- They applied pressure in the middle to the likes of Petracca - every disposal was under duress and we didn’t cope

- Their mids had great inside/outside balance, they just flicked a couple of handballs and they generated the cleanest of clearances with acres of space

- May was fantastic, his body work always working his forward slightly under the ball before spoiling with real purpose

- Harmes is being wasted, his current position plays to none of his strengths

- Our goalkicking was terrible and we never looked confident, we could have been still in the hunt late if we had kicked straight

- 3rd quarter was abysmal, no more to add

- One point on the umpiring, not sure if it was raised by the commentators, but twice we got pinged for pushing in the back as they were kicking, and that’s fine, but how the hell can they both be down field when they were clealry in the kicking action? Both kicks were shanked due to the push.

Summary: pressure our mids, be prepared to run, and you are a very very good chance of beating Melbourne.

[BW511 2,669]

If we are to persist with the same setup across the ground, we need to invest in players that bring some point of difference.

You could throw a blanket over Harmes, Salem, Hibberd, Brayshaw, Melksham, Hannan, Fritsch,  Lockhart, Spargo, Tomlinson, Jones, Lever, T-Mac and possibly even Oliver as one paced plodders. Trac offers something a little different, but he’s useless going back as he’s not quick either. Oliver has pace, but is often trailing an opponent 5 meters behind.

The Doggies/Saints/Power/Lions all have multiple players with the leg speed to simply run past or away from this bunch.

Teams that are buzzing around and moving all day are always a chance against us, because we are setup to play the rugby scrum style. Giant effort at the coal face, reset, then go again. The doggies are the most frustrating of the lot, because individually they are not great players, they just all work to contribute (when they are on)
 

 

[leave it to deever 17,511]

10 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Melksham should be dropped for that contested mark he shirked in the 2nd quarter if nothing else

I could use good Dr after watching that game.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

Typical Melb player                          I play AFL footy

Typical Bulldog player                     I play for the Bulldogs

I do not see team spirit when we are losing. Just a sort of bewildered look. it is more resignation than anger  . 

 

Quote

 

 

[spirit of norm smith 16,454]

1 hour ago, Forest Demon said:

I was at the game yesterday and we were pretty comprehensively outclassed, some notes below.

- Pressure from the forwards was terrible, they had so many options bringing it out, it was just a procession

- They applied pressure in the middle to the likes of Petracca - every disposal was under duress and we didn’t cope

- Their mids had great inside/outside balance, they just flicked a couple of handballs and they generated the cleanest of clearances with acres of space

- May was fantastic, his body work always working his forward slightly under the ball before spoiling with real purpose

- Harmes is being wasted, his current position plays to none of his strengths

- Our goalkicking was terrible and we never looked confident, we could have been still in the hunt late if we had kicked straight

- 3rd quarter was abysmal, no more to add

- One point on the umpiring, not sure if it was raised by the commentators, but twice we got pinged for pushing in the back as they were kicking, and that’s fine, but how the hell can they both be down field when they were clealry in the kicking action? Both kicks were shanked due to the push.

Summary: pressure our mids, be prepared to run, and you are a very very good chance of beating Melbourne.

Excellent summary. Add in “dumb footy and decision making”, in fact I’ll do a separate thread. 

[Half forward flank 1,022]

Anyone else questioning why we paid big dollars and long term contract for Tomlinson to play as a defender. 

[grazman 7,432]

18 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

Anyone else questioning why we paid big dollars and long term contract for Tomlinson to play as a defender. 

Define 'big dollars'.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

5 minutes ago, grazman said:

Define 'big dollars'.

You always rude ?

[Lord Nev 13,512]

5 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

Some were critical of Preuss. At one centre bounce Brayshaw set up directly in front of Preuss, goal side. Presuu tapped it direcrtly to him. At the last minute a Bulldog mid simply stepped in front of Brayshaw and received the ball. Brayshaw had zero awareness of his player.

Sure, that might be one example, but I just watched a replay of a whole bunch of the ruck contests and Preuss was horrible.

First half he either tapped it straight to a Dogs player or blindly behind him to at best an even contest. There were a few examples where he had a Melbourne player directly in front of him with no one on them yet he still tapped it sideways or backwards to a Dogs player. This is basic stuff, so Goodwin talking about cohesion after the match is an absolute cop out.

In the second half they obviously decided hitting it to one of ours was too hard so Preuss just hit the ball straight to the ground. This plays right into our 'bees to the honeypot' problem that has been talked about for 3 years and once the ball got on the outside it was game over.

Not letting the mids off the hook of course, there were problems everywhere yesterday, but geez this stuff isn't complicated.

 

[grazman 7,432]

22 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

You always rude ?

No why? 

[Half forward flank 1,022]

3 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Sure, that might be one example, but I just watched a replay of a whole bunch of the ruck contests and Preuss was horrible.

First half he either tapped it straight to a Dogs player or blindly behind him to at best an even contest. There were a few examples where he had a Melbourne player directly in front of him with no one on them yet he still tapped it sideways or backwards to a Dogs player. This is basic stuff, so Goodwin talking about cohesion after the match is an absolute cop out.

In the second half they obviously decided hitting it to one of ours was too hard so Preuss just hit the ball straight to the ground. This plays right into our 'bees to the honeypot' problem that has been talked about for 3 years and once the ball got on the outside it was game over.

Not letting the mids off the hook of course, there were problems everywhere yesterday, but geez this stuff isn't complicated.

 

Who knows. How can it be that with a ruck coach and a good relationship and advice from Gawn that a big strong ruckman and good midfielders not be in synch. They practice this stuff all the time. Who calls the plays. Did you see any form of communication between ruck and mids at critical times like in the third quarter LN

[Half forward flank 1,022]

2 minutes ago, grazman said:

No why? 

It was a demand, not a discussion. Beyond that you know as well as I do he was coaxed away from GWS on a four year deal to play as a wingman. That was spruiked by all and sundry at the club in the off season.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,820]

Not to excuse yesterday as it was a poor performance and the club let themselves down.

However, there have been 11 occasions this year where teams have come into a game on a 3 game winning streak. Only 4 of those occasions have resulted in the side winning their 4th game in a row.

Statistically, we were most likely going to lose that game due to the up and down nature of this unprecedented season.

Next week will prove once and for all if we’re any chop this year. We have bounced back well after our poor losses this year.