POSTGAME: Rd 08 vs Brisbane

[At Least I Saw a Flag 5,221]

In close matches the side with more poise and belief usually wins. 

I had little doubt that Langdon and Weideman would miss their shots at goal. So predictable. But FFS I couldn't believe Bennell's miss. Shouted at the TV when that happened. Same with Kozi's miss. I can't believe that no one has used the "c" word in this thread. 

The fightback was good, but the missed shots and lack of poise ultimately cost the match.

A lot has been said about Hannan's kick to Fritsch. Were there any other options? By that I mean any other players to kick to. Rather than options other than kicking the ball out on the full.

Some of Max's hitouts were straight to Lions' players. However, some of the hitouts were to teammates who then handballed to teammates under pressure or didn't otherwise move the ball on straight away, causing turnovers. Brisbane's pressure was good. Surely the Demons' players should realise this!! Good sides don't give you time. It ain't rocket science.

I know I sound like a dinosaur, but when we were being killed in clearances, would there be any value in Max occasionally just punching the ball 20/30 forward to mix it up?

The team will have to defeat Port to keep its season alive, but I can't see that happening. 

[Whispering_Jack 29,762]

The answer is plain and clear. Total domination in the hit outs but destroyed in the clearances. It’s all good when you’re winning in the ruck and that advantage is taken by your team but from the beginning their midfield dominated ours and we couldn’t withstand the pressure. We had to change tack from early in the second quarter when it was starting to hurt us everywhere but on the scoreboard. A slight adjustment at that time and we win the game. 

[BW511 2,642]

35 minutes ago, bingers said:

Some of Max's hitouts were straight to Lions' players. However, some of the hitouts were to teammates who then handballed to teammates under pressure or didn't otherwise move the ball on straight away, causing turnovers. Brisbane's pressure was good. Surely the Demons' players should realise this!! Good sides don't give you time. It ain't rocket science.

I know I sound like a dinosaur, but when we were being killed in clearances, would there be any value in Max occasionally just punching the ball 20/30 forward to mix it up?

Max used to do this a lot in 2018.

Everyone knew we were getting mauled in the centre square, as Captain, he could take it upon himself to change it up and bring our HFF line into the contest

Edited July 26, 2020 by BW511

[Lucifers Hero 39,504]

A few days ago I posted this in the 'Teams' thread:

Fagan is a smart coach and neurtralizing Max's dominance will be his #1 goal.  They are a very smart mid-field and will rove to Max's taps.  Also, Lions is one of the teams last year that used the strategy: "match them on the inside, beat them on the outside".  So if roving to Max doesn't work they will try and stop us getting the ball out.  So we win the clearances but forced to turn the ball over.  If it gets into McCluggage's hands they are off to the races.

And so it came to pass:  Max, our #1 weapon was neutralised.

That is not a new strategy.  Other teams have used it many times:  Pies, Tigers, (last generation) Hawks etc 

Goodwin said they were better than us at getting the '''loose ball' out at stoppages.   Given that it was obvious what their midfield tactics would be why did we not have a counter strategy from the get go? 

They had an extra around the stoppages so even if we got the ball they ring-fenced us in so the ball fell into dispute.  We didn't counter it.  Viney and Oliver were mighty in trying to bulldoze there way out but were beaten by weight of numbers and smarts.

Not our best coaching effort. 

 

To see Max's 'Hitout' work 'wasted' is heartbreaking ?. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[Rednblueriseing 824]

9 hours ago, low flying Robbo said:

I'm so angry at losing that game.... it was there for us to win, but also there has to be a please explain about that umpiring! 10m kicks getting paid for Brisbane, holding the ball calls when there was absolutely zero opportunity.... AARRRRGGGGGGHHHHH

Oh and Gerard Healy should never commentate Melbourne games again. He hates us so much. His worst was when Nev was taken high with a bump to the head, he had a go at Nev and failed to mention the Brisbane guy tucking his elbow in and going for the bump

The commentary on that game made me want to cancel my foxtel, rubbish.

[Lucifers Hero 39,504]

Getting very worried about Brayshaw:

• Again played only 65% of the game. 
• He doesn't have a role to make his own in the team. 
• Don't know how many rotations he had but he seemed to be on/off the field a lot, almost as if he was a 'relief' player to give others a spell. 
• He looked frustrated at one rotation when he almost pulled his helmet off. 

These first 3 things would make it exceptionally difficult to get into the rhythm of the game, to get some touch for the ball and that 6th sense for where teammates and opponents are.

Not making excuses as he had a poor game.  But not sure he is being given the best opportunity to play to his strengths.

[DemonOX 8,779]

My god the umps really were pathetic. 
 

Most 50/50 calls went against us and if that wasn’t enough they decide to review the Lever mark in the dying seconds of the last term. 
 

I was sitting in the stands on the 2nd level and could see it was a mark and I wear glasses. We also had players out the fat side for a quick play on but the review stuffed that. 
 

It gave Brisbane a massive advantage to set up their defence correctly which stalled our movement out of their f50 just to top it off. 
 

Thanks umps and I’m sure Brisbane will award u BOG u bunch of useless, brainless, incompetent flogs. 

[ProperDee 1,698]

11 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Have a look at his posting tonight - the ol' coq is having a troll I think.

Maybe he should change the "vin" to "head"?

[BW511 2,642]

4 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Getting very worried about Brayshaw:

• Again played only 65% of the game. 
• He doesn't have a role to make his own in the team. 
• Don't know how many rotations he had but he seemed to be on/off the field a lot, almost as if he was a 'relief' player to give others a spell. 
• He looked frustrated at one rotation when he almost pulled his helmet off. 

These first 3 things would make it exceptionally difficult to get into the rhythm of the game, to get some touch for the ball and that 6th sense for where teammates and opponents are.

Not making excuses as he had a poor game.  But not sure he is being given the best opportunity to play to his strengths.

Brayshaw and Harmes have really been hurt by the emergence of Trac as a genuine mid.

Oliver and Viney are probably walk up starts, then Trac comes along and joins them.

Brayshaw is not an impact player, he needs to be following the play all day to accumulate touches and grow in confidence.

[Lucifers Hero 39,504]

Adding to the Brayshaw's 65% game time.  Harmes also played only 65%.  Like my Brayshaw comment above being on/off the ground doesn't help playing consistently.  All game he was uncharacteristically fumbly as if he wasn't concentrating.  And he didn't look too happy at the end of the 3/4 time break. 

Yet players that might have needed a rest played a lot more:  Jones 81%, Pickett 77%, Jackson 75%, Bennell 72%.

There is a reason why two of or recently better players spent so much time on the bench but it isn't obvious to me. 

Could have we won the game if Brayshaw and or Harmes spent more time on the ground?.

[Lucifers Hero 39,504]

9 minutes ago, BW511 said:

Brayshaw and Harmes have really been hurt by the emergence of Trac as a genuine mid.

Oliver and Viney are probably walk up starts, then Trac comes along and joins them.

Brayshaw is not an impact player, he needs to be following the play all day to accumulate touches and grow in confidence.

As I said, getting into the rhythm of the game is very difficult if only playing 65% then going on/off the field as a relief player.  Best way to get confidence is to be on the field and stay, for both Harmes and Brayshaw. 

Brayshaw has had 4-5 games with 65% game time.  At some point this has to affect motivation.  Again, not making excuses for yesterday's game.

 

 

This comment is not related to your post but those posters who criticise the stats of some players need to be aware of how much game time they had.  eg Harmes and Brayshaw 65%.  Jones 81%.  Who had the better game?

Edited July 26, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[Jaded No More 68,855]

For as long as I’ve been watching us play we’ve been a horrible wet weather team. When it’s wet and slippery you gotta be smart. We are dumb even in dry conditions. 
Brisbane played it perfectly and their ball users through the middle killed us. I rate our midfield but they are mostly meat and potatoes. They see ball, get ball, butcher ball. I love what Langdon has brought to our team, he works so hard to make position and brings needed legspeed, but his ball use is average at best. 
If we can get Bennell fitter and onto the wing for big chunks of the game this will help. We need a feeder on the outside who can use the footy. Sadly this was Brayshaw but for some reason he is lost and Tomlinson has most certainly not delivered this yet either. I have to say I’m very disappointed in this trade. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by Jaded

[Wiseblood 24,637]

7 minutes ago, Jaded said:

For as long as I’ve been watching us play we’ve been a horrible wet weather team. When it’s wet and slippery you gotta be smart. We are dumb even in dry conditions. 
 

And we only got rolled by 4 points.  

I wouldn't say we played dumb footy - if we had, we wouldn't have been in the contest (which is also thanks to our backline), but I just think the Lions were a little cleaner than us.  

I think this side has come a long way over the last month.  Imagine playing them four weeks ago in these same conditions - we would probably have gotten rolled by 6-8 goals.

Obviously we need to continue to get better and to eliminate the errors from our game, but I think last night shows we are not only headed in the right direction, but that we are closing the gap on the better sides in the competition.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

35 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Goodwin said they were better than us at getting the '''loose ball' out at stoppages.   Given that it was obvious what their midfield tactics would be why did we not have a counter strategy from the get go? 

I reckon Goodwin must be a James Bond fan. “Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.”

Goodwin knows if an opposition coach does a number on him three times in a row, then by golly, something is afoot and counter measures need to be taken.

I think we're up to two with Fagan and the Bears. So by this time next year we should be ready to try some kind of counter. Looking forward to that!

[Jaded No More 68,855]

Just now, Wiseblood said:

And we only got rolled by 4 points.  

I wouldn't say we played dumb footy - if we had, we wouldn't have been in the contest (which is also thanks to our backline), but I just think the Lions were a little cleaner than us.  

I think this side has come a long way over the last month.  Imagine playing them four weeks ago in these same conditions - we would probably have gotten rolled by 6-8 goals.

Obviously we need to continue to get better and to eliminate the errors from our game, but I think last night shows we are not only headed in the right direction, but that we are closing the gap on the better sides in the competition.

Don’t disagree. We played well. But frankly if the Lions kick straight in quarter 2/3 we lose by a lot more. We were lucky their poor kicking kept us in it, as much as our poor kicking kept us out of it. 
Our backline did a superb job yesterday. One of the better defensive performances I’ve seen from them. Lever starting to come into his own as well.

My issue last night is how many times we went for short kicks when we kept getting smothered and how often we went for the handball option under pressure when we knew full well that the Lions midfield would eat that up. We still panic way too much under pressure and this has to be fixed. You don’t make, let alone win finals, if you can’t play under pressure. 

[spirit of norm smith 16,250]

1 hour ago, bingers said:

In close matches the side with more poise and belief usually wins. 

I had little doubt that Langdon and Weideman would miss their shots at goal. So predictable. But FFS I couldn't believe Bennell's miss. Shouted at the TV when that happened. Same with Kozi's miss. I can't believe that no one has used the "c" word in this thread. 

The fightback was good, but the missed shots and lack of poise ultimately cost the match.

A lot has been said about Hannan's kick to Fritsch. Were there any other options? By that I mean any other players to kick to. Rather than options other than kicking the ball out on the full.

Some of Max's hitouts were straight to Lions' players. However, some of the hitouts were to teammates who then handballed to teammates under pressure or didn't otherwise move the ball on straight away, causing turnovers. Brisbane's pressure was good. Surely the Demons' players should realise this!! Good sides don't give you time. It ain't rocket science.

I know I sound like a dinosaur, but when we were being killed in clearances, would there be any value in Max occasionally just punching the ball 20/30 forward to mix it up?

The team will have to defeat Port to keep its season alive, but I can't see that happening. 

Agree. Sometimes Gawn would be better off with a 15 metre punch to our advantage.  Players could run into the footy. The Lions like Lyons, Neale and Zorko just camped in the clearance contest and won it repeatedly.  

[Lucifers Hero 39,504]

1 minute ago, Mazer Rackham said:

I reckon Goodwin must be a James Bond fan. “Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.”

Goodwin knows if an opposition coach does a number on him three times in a row, then by golly, something is afoot and counter measures need to be taken.

I think we're up to two with Fagan and the Bears. So by this time next year we should be ready to try some kind of counter. Looking forward to that!

A touch of humour there, MR.

I would agree but Tigers, Pies and Hawks have successfully used the same tactic over recent years.  They openly talk about it in tv interviews.  And I think Freo did it very well in 2017 or 2018. 

Roving to Max and/or creating a loose ball from his taps has been happening for several years.

It had sense of the Geelong game - not anticipating what tactics they might use and having a counter plan before the game.  Not sure we had a counter plan last night except for Oliver and Viney to bullock their way out.  Couldn't tell if we ever tried to match-up with their extra around the contest or to make him accountable.  Hard to tell on tv.

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,542]

Really flat after yesterday's loss. 

Some key areas that were extremely frustrating.

- Fritsch's discipline was disgraceful and I hope Goody called it out in the post game meeting.

- The ARC review was a terrible call by the umpire and the AFL need to look at this. If it isn't related to a goal being kicked then surely they can check while play is on-going? Lever actually ran through the goal square so if it was a behind it would've been play on anyway. Just really poor umpiring and match awareness.

- Missing set shots and goals from 20m out. Our composure was shocking and it isn't a new issue. When other teams don't pressure like the Hawks we can play champagne football. Once the better sides put on pressure we fall into old habits. 

One other point is the state of the game is just a mess, and this isn't only referring to our game. I'm getting pretty tired of watching the rugby like scrum game after game, the completely shocking umpire interpretations and the constant frees being paid for tiny infringements which for some reason aren't paid in finals. In my view the game has gone backwards under Gil and Hocking's watch and I'm becoming less and less interested in it.

[jnrmac 20,053]

2 hours ago, Whispering_Jack said:

The answer is plain and clear. Total domination in the hit outs but destroyed in the clearances. It’s all good when you’re winning in the ruck and that advantage is taken by your team but from the beginning their midfield dominated ours and we couldn’t withstand the pressure. We had to change tack from early in the second quarter when it was starting to hurt us everywhere but on the scoreboard. A slight adjustment at that time and we win the game. 

we were smashed in groundball gets in the first 3 quarters

[3Dee 1,153]

That stings, at least the loss shows we can compete with the current top team in the comp.

Bring on Thursday night, I plan to be dancing down Vulture St.

[DeePressed 114]

It's always hard when you lose by a kick.

But we didn't deserve to win that. We got smashed in the 2nd quarter and should've been down by more. Brisbane are a good side. 

When you're chasing you need everything to go right and blame everything and everyone when you fall short.

Plenty of must improves but i'll try and keep it half full. 

 

Positives?

Midfield fought really hard, refused to lie down. 

Weideman clunked some early and always competed

Jackson has huge upside

Viney showing his true colours

Melksham is still a massive threat with ball in hand

Half the team were average and we still only lost by a kick

 

Bennell/Pickett/Jackson/Weideman/Hannan have played less than 40 games since 2018 and only 2 as a collective. Give them a bit more time. 

 

 

 

 

 

[old55 23,356]

That was very disappointing.  They beat us at our own game in the contest and smashed us in the clearances.

Brisbane are one or two steps in class above Hawthorn - it's amazing to think that Hawthorn belted them in R1.

We missed too many easy chances - 7.7 compared with St.Kilda 12.1.

All that bad against a very good side and we still only lost by 4 points.

 

[John Demonic 5,743]

I just wonder if being called a Beavis & Butthead lookalike on DL last week, contributed to giving away that buttheaded 50m penalty.

Edited July 26, 2020 by John Demonic

[Little Richard 6,261]

Such a frustrating game to lose and I've got a strong feeling it'll come back to bite us at the business end of the season. However, I'm feeling fairly positive this morning.

We should have well and truly beaten a top 2 side, despite being smashed in the middle. There's a lot to like about that game and it's crazy to think how far this team has come in just a few weeks.

Positives:

• Jack Viney was immense. He just loves it when there's a challenge like the second half last night and no one stands as tall as him in the clinches (except maybe Max or Trac).
• Weideman and Jackson both presenting and pack crashing, not sure if either of them were beaten in the air last night.
• Melksham was excellent, great to see him find some form. He's such an important player for us when he's up and about.
• Our backline is getting better each week and it's fantastic to see them continue to jell. The missing piece may well be who comes in for Nev though, sadly.
• Simon Goodwin's coaching has improved a lot in the last few weeks and his tactical nous is becoming more evident on the field. Really happy to see this improvement from him.

Negatives:

• Goal kicking - special mention to Weid, Langdon, Harmes and Harley. Continually missed shots they should be icing and in the end it cost us the game.
• Nev Jetta, I worry for him when he keeps entering contests head first. He looked okay at times but unfortunately he's a shadow of his former self at the moment.
• We were absolutely smashed by a better midfield in the first half, despite receiving as good service as you can from a ruckman. We need to learn from it.
• Fritsch's poor game awareness that handed them a 50m penalty was terrible, as was that score review from the umpires.

[titan_uranus 24,969]

9 hours ago, A F said:

May is super overrated at the moment IMO.

Often gets outmarked too easily and usually kicks it to a contest or a howler turnover like the one that pinged straight back for Brisbane's first goal.

I reckon we need to be far more creative with his kicking and look to really gain territory. 

Honestly A F?

May was one of our best last night. No idea what your problem is with him based on that performance.

Not sure we should be blaming him solely for that first kick out - looked like a set play gone wrong.

9 hours ago, Dr.D said:

Season is [censored]

I'm sick of this 'Oh we've played 5 of the top 8 teams' cr@p.

We should be a top 4 team and it's frustrating because I have to sit watching the game truly believing that I could coach this team to the top 4. (hand on heart). 

Like why would goodwin start with Jetta on Cameron? Rankin destroyed Jetta 3 weeks earlier, so it was scary thinking what Cameron would do. Fortunately, the obvious move was made and Hibberd was put on Cameron. But it's stuff like this that Goodwin doesn't seem to understand.

 

Why? You don't like facts?

And why is your number one gripe with Goodwin Jetta to Cameron? He only had 9 touches. Yes he kicked 2 goals, but so did Fritsch and no one's suggesting Fritsch had a good game.

I'd be far more concerned with what how our midfielders were reacting to stoppages when Brisbane were all over us in the second quarter.

52 minutes ago, Jaded said:

For as long as I’ve been watching us play we’ve been a horrible wet weather team. When it’s wet and slippery you gotta be smart. We are dumb even in dry conditions. 
Brisbane played it perfectly and their ball users through the middle killed us. I rate our midfield but they are mostly meat and potatoes. They see ball, get ball, butcher ball. I love what Langdon has brought to our team, he works so hard to make position and brings needed legspeed, but his ball use is average at best. 
If we can get Bennell fitter and onto the wing for big chunks of the game this will help. We need a feeder on the outside who can use the footy. Sadly this was Brayshaw but for some reason he is lost and Tomlinson has most certainly not delivered this yet either. I have to say I’m very disappointed in this trade. 

Tomlinson? He was a free agent.

And you're writing him off after, what, five games?