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tallstuey

Gun target - Key Forward recruit?

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4 hours ago, tallstuey said:

Why oh why do I never see the Dees in the hunt for a gun forward? Am I obtuse? (feel free to feedback with a meaningful explanation that makes good football sense....or criticism if deemed appropriate)

They are very rare and incredibly expensive. A top draft pick is still the best hope. The history of big name key forward moves has been guys fleeing Victoria to go to Sydney (or Brisbane) on huge money and that's about it.

4 hours ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

We had one and traded him away. 

We had a very talented junior who starred as a baby but we didn't develop his mind nor his body correctly and there's about 1000 stats to show Hogan in 2018 was far more of a flat track bully than a gun key forward. I'd love to go back in time to about 2015 and sort him out then but it is what it is now.

1 hour ago, america de cali said:

We have the key forwards. Fritsch and Tmac for starters. We just need a better forward system and a clued up mid field and a couple of pacy small forwards. Oh.....and players that can lock the ball in and maintain pressure.

I agree with this. Tom McDonald is a 50 goal kicker with some excellent traits if harnessed correctly. Next year is huge for him but if the body and mind are in the right place and he plays to his strengths he can show why he's a fringe AA if not better key forward. And Fritsch's finish to the season was even better than I imagined he could do when given the opportunity to play as a forward marking target. He's another guy who could be special if used correctly.

2 hours ago, A F said:

If we can't land a gun, I'm not convinced we should recruit stop gaps. Just build your system around what you have. Richmond and Collingwood have shown the way in this respect.

Agreed. Unless it's a guy to do a very specific role but someone like Jenkins doesn't excel at forward pressure, crashing packs and being the 2nd ruck which is the kind of player I'd like to have. A younger, healthier, taller Tim Smith would be great but good luck finding that kind of player.

3 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

As Kingy suggested and which i've been calling for for years, FAs should not be allowed to get to a club thats finished top 5/6 or so (previous two seasons) or win a premiership in say the last five.

We can talk all we like about the possibility of getting a genuine gun tall forward.  Cameron is up next season,  aint gonna happen unless the clubs force the AFL to change FA to assist the lessor lights.

If Cameron doesn't re-sign at GWS i g'tee he will end up at a top liner in 2021.  Nothing more certain.

System is flawed until/unless the clubs speak up.

Bottom dwellers unite and take over!

It's a nice suggestion but it's completely against the notion of free agency, which was collectively bargained for a reason. It's a basic work force right. Start increasing restrictions on free agency and the players will be off to court and disbanding the whole draft and trade model in about 3 seconds.

Really the competition is probably better off going with expanded free agency at a younger age - after 5 or 6 years - so that the player market is bigger with more talent available. Is it unfair that Richmond got Tom Lynch or is it unfair that we had to pay pick 6 to get May? Create more free agents and then the top sides will be penalised for signing big names because their next wave of out of contract players will get picked off. Players signing at a younger age can jump on board a club who's recently drafted well - the likes of Lever will come to us for the ride up the ladder not just joining the top sides.

Look how much Brandon Ellis and Tomlinson are getting paid as free agents by bad clubs like the Suns and us. If every other player out there in this trade period was free then clubs would be paying huge sums to all the players moving. Eventually the salary cap pressures really kick in and there's a big market of players available. Then the only teams with cap space will be the clubs who have drafted and signed up their own players before they hit the market. Yes the big clubs will get an advantage but they already have a huge advantage! Open it up and let clubs get the players they want and need whilst keeping draft picks. If teams are a basketcase they'll be terrible but they already are!

 

 

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Not a key forward but I hope Hannan can get an injury free run, I love the guy, great goal sense. 

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7 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

They are very rare and incredibly expensive. A top draft pick is still the best hope. The history of big name key forward moves has been guys fleeing Victoria to go to Sydney (or Brisbane) on huge money and that's about it.

Not familiar with Lynch, McGovern, Patton, Hogan, Kennedy, Boyd, Dixon or Waite?

 

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1 hour ago, Demon Disciple said:

Without dominant key forwards, we need to have KPF's who are able to bring the ball to ground pretty much all the time to allow our smaller player's (hopefully the likes of Fritsch, Trac, Lockhart, Harmes, (Weightman if drafted) to crumb the pack.

The only problem is that we have almost all players' compete for the ball in the air while not enough stay down, allowing opposition numbers to waltz the ball out of the back-line.

Goody needs to drill this into the forward groups heads to have one compete in the air and the rest ready to mop up any balls that hit the deck.

Pretty much sums up our problem.  I think our stats from this year was virtually no grounds ball gets in the Fwd (and def) 50s. 

I can't see how this has not been rectified with structure and reinforcing drills at training.  Then it does not matter if they dont mark as long as they bring it to ground.

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10 minutes ago, Darkhorse72 said:

I can't see how this has not been rectified with structure and reinforcing drills at training.  Then it does not matter if they dont mark as long as they bring it to ground.

Agreed.

It highlights huge flaws in the coaching team

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I'm a little annoyed we didn't make a play for Bruce. He's not a word-beater, but he'd fit in with our mobile talks. 

As it stands now, I wonder if it would be worth taking a punt on McBean? He has size, can pinch in the ruck and had a big season in the SANFL. At 25 he'd be ready to go right away and put some pressure on Weed to improve.

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46 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Not familiar with Lynch, McGovern, Patton, Hogan, Kennedy, Boyd, Dixon or Waite?

 

Sorry I meant to have successful in there - and probably should've said modern time as well. McGovern isn't a big name and so far hasn't been good, neither has Hogan. Dixon isn't a top liner and hasn't worked. Add Mitch Clark to that list. Patton certainly not a big name now. Waite was never an A grader, moved at the tail end of his career and did far better than predicted - Carlton weren't even compensated for his loss, that's how much he wasn't rated at that age. Boyd and Tom Lynch are almost one off situations - expansion clubs in unusual situations, although Ben King is similar to both and worth watching. Boyd mostly didn't work, luckily he played 3 good games mostly in the ruck at the right time.

I still feel like the odds of bringing in a Tom Lynch are exceptionally rare. Collingwood were a great side for most of the 2000's and couldn't get anyone. Unless you're Sydney and can offer the chance of success and a fresh start outside the media bubble or possibly a WA team with go home factor you're looking at a long time between drinks. 

Ben King is obviously some chance and Jez Cameron isn't completely ruled out but you can't just go out and get a guy like that and if you do they might be available for a reason and not what you really need.

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3 minutes ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

I'm a little annoyed we didn't make a play for Bruce. He's not a word-beater, but he'd fit in with our mobile talks. 

As it stands now, I wonder if it would be worth taking a punt on McBean? He has size, can pinch in the ruck and had a big season in the SANFL. At 25 he'd be ready to go right away and put some pressure on Weed to improve.

I wouldn't be against getting someone like McBean.  He isn't the 'gun' we need but it sounds like his time away from the AFL has done him the world of good and he's in the right frame of mind to have another crack at it.

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I wonder to what extent Weid missing the game-winner against Adelaide will affect his development. He had a chance to be the hero, but blew it by missing from straight in front.

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Just now, Superunknown said:

What’s Jeremy Cameron’s status end of next season 

UFA

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4 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Sorry I meant to have successful in there - and probably should've said modern time as well.

Pretty much all of those were "modern time", unless you're version of "modern time" doesn't goes as far back as the last trade period.

Aside from Buddy (borderline "modern time" given your trying to shut down my examples from the last few years) and maybe Lockett (definitely not "modern time"), what are all these examples of "big name key forwards" that have been traded to Sydney?

 

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3 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Pretty much all of those were "modern time", unless you're version of "modern time" doesn't goes as far back as the last trade period.

Aside from Buddy (borderline "modern time" given your trying to shut down my examples from the last few years) and maybe Lockett (definitely not "modern time"), what are all these examples of "big name key forwards" that have been traded to Sydney?

 

Barry Hall and in the not too distant future Joe Daniher, they've mastered offering a new lifestyle to big name key forwards since Plugger. By modern times I meant since the current draft and trades and professional era and not including the days of Kelvin Templeton or anything like that where player movement was quite different.

Honestly there were more than I could remember that moved clubs but I don't think many have been successful. 

Fraser Gehrig's actually a big success story that we both forgot, converting a guy who wasn't even a full time forward in to a Coleman winner.

 

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I still believe in Weids becoming our key forward forward target to kick the required goals, while Tom hopefully next year TMac is able to recapture the form that made him so dangerous in 2018. 

For me it's the small/pressure forward that is more critical to us next year, as well as having a forward structure and game plan that is more intelligent that kicking it directly to the opposition's floating defender.

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It's a little tough to judge our key forwards this year because they had rubbish supply, it was either not enough supply, or plenty but huge numbers and horrible kicks. 

i reckon Jeremy cameron would have found our forward line tricky this year

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Pates said:

I still believe in Weids becoming our key forward forward target to kick the required goals, while Tom hopefully next year TMac is able to recapture the form that made him so dangerous in 2018.

Too risky for me Pates.  Both could fail again and then what?  The odds aren't great that both will fire.  If one fires we might get by with Fritsch,  Melksham and Petracca to help out.  If we got Elliott it's almost problem solved. 

May forward?  Bit tricky doing that now with the likely departure of Frost.

We need to at least recruit a spec key forward.  My preference would be to trade for a proven talent but decent KPF's are very hard to acquire.  It doesn't seem like it's on the club's radar but you never know.

So a late pick in the draft as we did with the McDonald Bros.  Or trade in a fringe tall from another club.

Petty looks like he's been earmarked to play and develop as a KPD.  Again,  especially with the likely departure of Frost. 

Edited by Macca

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I know the FD have come out and allegedly said Oscar will play back next year, but I wonder if it's worth playing him forward. So it's Petty, Weideman and Oscar all playing for that forward spot. If we have injuries to our back half, they could all play for a spot back there too.

It's all about system. Get the bloody forward system right and we'll be a much, much better side.

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5 minutes ago, A F said:

I know the FD have come out and allegedly said Oscar will play back next year, but I wonder if it's worth playing him forward. So it's Petty, Weideman and Oscar all playing for that forward spot. If we have injuries to our back half, they could all play for a spot back there too.

It's all about system. Get the bloody forward system right and we'll be a much, much better side.

Oscar has zero goal sense.

And he's like Pruess in terms of being able to play as a KPF.  At his age (just like Preuss) he's got too much to learn anyway

I wouldn't waste my time on such a notion.  The chances of it working out are remote.

We'll either draft another option (late pick) or trade for a fringe KPF from elsewhere.  Well,  at least I hope we do.

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39 minutes ago, Macca said:

Oscar has zero goal sense.

And he's like Pruess in terms of being able to play as a KPF.  At his age (just like Preuss) he's got too much to learn anyway

I wouldn't waste my time on such a notion.  The chances of it working out are remote.

We'll either draft another option (late pick) or trade for a fringe KPF from elsewhere.  Well,  at least I hope we do.

I agree, but I probably also would have said the same thing about Tom McDonald forward.

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I don't hate the idea of looking at Levi Casbault should he decide to leave, not a long term option but can take a clunk 

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Just now, A F said:

I agree, but I probably also would have said the same thing about Tom McDonald forward.

I wouldn't have.  Tom is a much better player than his brother and has (or had) an uncanny ability to create space for himself.  And his kicking issues only ever related to spacial awareness.  As a key forward,  that spacial awareness issue is not really a factor.

Oscar often ends flapping about at ground level.  He gets outbodied too easily and everytime I've seen him within range of goal he looks completely lost.

A no from me but I like that you're thinking outside the sqaure AF. 

As for recruiting talls,  don't forget that Tim Smith,  Keilty & Frost are all as good as gone and they all played as talls

So they need to be replaced (at least somewhat)

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Macca said:

I wouldn't have.  Tom is a much better player than his brother and has (or had) an uncanny ability to create space for himself.  And his kicking issues only ever related to spacial awareness.  As a key forward,  that spacial awareness issue is not really a factor.

Oscar often ends flapping about at ground level.  He gets outbodied too easily and everytime I've seen him within range of goal he looks completely lost.

A no from me but I like that you're thinking outside the sqaure AF. 

As for recruiting talls,  don't forget that Tim Smith,  Keilty & Frost are all as good as gone and they all played as talls

So they need to be replaced (at least somewhat)

I like the idea of only replacing them with AFL level B or A grade talent. Until we can do that, we should be playing a forward system that is built around the B graders we have in McDonald, Melksham, Fritsch and on his day, Hannan. I'd hope that if we get all those guys working in tandem well, one or two might elevate to A grade levels over the course of a confidence-building season. 

Edited by A F

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1 minute ago, A F said:

I like the idea of only replacing them with AFL level B or A grade talent. Until we can do that, we should be playing a forward system that is built around the B graders we have in McDonald, Melksham, Fritsch and on his day, Hannan. I'd hope that if we get all those guys working in tandem well, one or two might elevate to A grade levels over the course of a confidence-building season. 

I'm not a Hannan fan AF.  He jogs around too much and doesn't play with any urgency.  Spargo isn't good enough either but he has a go for a little fella.  And Garlett is gone.  With Lockhart - who knows?  Needs a pre-season.

I'd be playing Jones and/or Viney forward as the smalls.  Both are good enough and are much better options than the aforementioned.  And,  they're experienced. 

Jones is done as a midfielder anyway and Viney goes alright in the midfield but is wasteful with his disposal.  Throw them both forward or rotate them forward.  We need better options than Jones in the backline too. 

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42 minutes ago, Macca said:

I'm not a Hannan fan AF.  He jogs around too much and doesn't play with any urgency.  Spargo isn't good enough either but he has a go for a little fella.  And Garlett is gone.  With Lockhart - who knows?  Needs a pre-season.

I'd be playing Jones and/or Viney forward as the smalls.  Both are good enough and are much better options than the aforementioned.  And,  they're experienced. 

Jones is done as a midfielder anyway and Viney goes alright in the midfield but is wasteful with his disposal.  Throw them both forward or rotate them forward.  We need better options than Jones in the backline too. 

Jones is far too slow to play the forward pressure role. Teams would set up rebounds off him every time. I think Jones' go since he's got another year, is playing the kicker role and setting up off half back. He's not a great kick, but at least he might be able to help Lever and May direct from the back a bit.

Viney as the small forward, I can definitely get behind.

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