Jump to content

Sign in to follow this  
TGR

B&F Subjectivity

Recommended Posts

On one hand, you have pub talk (who else but Yobbo) and PhD speak (Dermie try-hard) and Evangelical talk (who else but Monsignor Whately) where the consensus reached is that B&Fs are the real indication because only the inside know about covert roles etc...

On the other hand, they are absolutely corrupt and manipulated by other biases.  Player contracts that have an incentive clause in relation to B&F position for instance.  The other one is trying to flick off a player.  Now that we know the club think that Frost played 2019 out-of-his-skin, and Clarko will be fooled by this, it will be interesting to see where "supreme effort" and courage (with and without ball in hand) gets him in this year's B&F.  He is top 5 this year without one shadow of a doubt.  Something tells me, Goody and co. will make sure that he finishes in the teens.

As Keating once said, "in the race of life, always back self-interest".

 

pTGR

Edited by TGR
Spelling
  • Haha 2
  • Shocked 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it hard to believe that the coaching group would discard their weekly votes on our best players to sanction a player, surely the higher a player ends up would guarantee you a better trade value?????????????

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The system advantages players that have played every game as the final count is the sum of votes from each game with no prorata for # of games played.

For mine Frost is not top 5 and probably not top 10.  Those ahead of him would be (in no particular order) Petracca, Harmes, Oliver, Gawn, Salem, Viney, Fritsch, even Hore perhaps... 

Many things go into the votes that we as fans can't see eg playing to the game plan, 'team first'/unselfish play, attitude, decision making under pressure, following team rules etc.  I have no idea how Frost scores on any of these.  But if he isn't in the top 10, I don't think it means there is 'a fix'. 

And I very much doubt BnF position influences trade decisions.  After all, Hawks traded out Mitchell and Lewis the year they came 1st and 2nd in their BnF.

Freo traded out their BnF winner last year...

Edited by Lucifer's Hero

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not saying B&F influences trade decisions.  Just implying that clubs experience more difficulty trading a Howe or Kent or Frost or Watts or Dunn if they finish high in the B&F.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

another graduate from the university of the bleeding obvious

That’s where you Simpletons get your qualifications.

You take literature from the UBO away, we are only left with 5% of thought provocation and 3% of incoherent dribble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Bluey is happening before the trade period. Why would the club seemingly decrease his trade value by pushing him down the order of value to us?

 

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

The Bluey is happening before the trade period. Why would the club seemingly decrease his trade value by pushing him down the order of value to us?

 

Read the thread.  It’s nit about value.  It’s about marketing and supporter relations.

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, TGR said:

Read the thread.  It’s nit about value.  It’s about marketing and supporter relations.

 

2 hours ago, TGR said:

 Player contracts that have an incentive clause in relation to B&F position for instance.  The other one is trying to flick off a player.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The BnF will reflect how well the coaching group think a player has played his role and followed the game plan.  Sure brilliance will get votes, but they won't give full votes to players who ignore team plan/rules no matter what the outcome. 

I expect Frost will poll a bit lower than many supporters will expect. Yes he is exciting, he breaks lines, he attacks, and he had great highlights in a solid year. But his no.1 role is being part of a defensive 6, and I think when it comes to Frost, that often comes second. Leaving his man at the wrong time, spoiling team mates, poor positioning during the i50, means that at times he struggled as a defender.  Many of his highlights came after he had messed up. Many highlights end in him messing up (e.g. running too far snuffed confusing the timing of our forwards).

I'm not saying I want him gone, but I understand why he may be tradable.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/13/2019 at 3:32 PM, Lord Nev said:

 

 

I hope you are not a prosecution barrister.  That serviette you're holding aint the Shroud of Turin.

Let me be clear.  When clubs contentiously get rid of a player it is in the club's best interest to 'lower' them on the B&F list.

 

This has nothing at all to do with the fruitless task "tricking" other clubs.  This is about marketing and massaging a message to members to minimise any potential fallout.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Considering Nathan Jones got 4th last year I feel the "Blueys" abit of a joke.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Fork 'em said:

Considering Nathan Jones got 4th last year I feel the "Blueys" abit of a joke.

 

I was staggered in 2016 when Gawn finished 3rd after a dominant AA year. Somehow Viney won the award that year.  Rob Flower won our B&F once and we were absolutely horrible for pretty much all of his career. I'd not be in the least surprised to see some "strange" results this year as well.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TGR said:

I hope you are not a prosecution barrister.  That serviette you're holding aint the Shroud of Turin.

Let me be clear.  When clubs contentiously get rid of a player it is in the club's best interest to 'lower' them on the B&F list.

This has nothing at all to do with the fruitless task "tricking" other clubs.  This is about marketing and massaging a message to members to minimise any potential fallout.

So, can you then explain the following:

Beams finishing 2nd in the Lions BnF before being traded to Collingwood.

Neale Freo BnF winner before being traded.

Ablett won the Suns BnF then traded.

That's just a few off the top of my head, but already it seems the evidence doesn't support your assertion.

Case closed.

Edited by Lord Nev
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, TGR said:

I hope you are not a prosecution barrister.  That serviette you're holding aint the Shroud of Turin.

Let me be clear.  When clubs contentiously get rid of a player it is in the club's best interest to 'lower' them on the B&F list.

 

This has nothing at all to do with the fruitless task "tricking" other clubs.  This is about marketing and massaging a message to members to minimise any potential fallout.

You're wrong. Have a lie down.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We've got two options here:

1) the entire AFL industry is manipulating best and fairest results for the purposes of marketing and supporter management, at the potential detriment of performance bonus payments to players, and not a single person involved in the industry has ever hinted at blowing the whistle. 

Or

2) Coaches that cast votes are a) more knowledgeable of the player role and KPI than the average player and b) influenced by conscious/unconscious bias RE player performance, which also is the basis for making decisions on list management and players futures; so it isn't a surprise to see correlations or patterns in vote results and player movements. 

 

I'm going to go with option 2 on this occasion.

Edited by deanox
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, deanox said:

We've got two options here:

1) the entire AFL industry is manipulating best and fairest results for the purposes of marketing and supporter management, at the potential detriment of performance bonus payments to players, and not a single person involved in the industry has ever hinted at blowing the whistle. 

Or

2) Coaches that cast votes are a) more knowledgeable of the player role and KPI than the average player and b) influenced by conscious/unconscious bias RE player performance, which also is the basis for making decisions on list management and players futures; so it isn't a surprise to see correlations or patterns in vote results and player movements. 

 

I'm going to go with option 2 on this occasion.

Someone has blown the whistle.  Refer to Western Bulldogs saga 1-2 decades ago.

 

Option 2?

This is a coach that refused to review the 2018 prelim.  This is a coach that said 'top 4 no longer matters'.  This is a coach that has gone short-term with many decisions (Lever for 2 first rounders in a super draft, Jordie Lewis game-time, passing on the King twin and the list goes on).  This is a coach that played Lewis and Jones on the wings at the G in a big game.

 

His short-termism and decision making quality will only worsen as he coaches for his life in 2020.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, TGR said:

Someone has blown the whistle.  Refer to Western Bulldogs saga 1-2 decades ago.

 

Option 2?

This is a coach that refused to review the 2018 prelim.  This is a coach that said 'top 4 no longer matters'.  This is a coach that has gone short-term with many decisions (Lever for 2 first rounders in a super draft, Jordie Lewis game-time, passing on the King twin and the list goes on).  This is a coach that played Lewis and Jones on the wings at the G in a big game.

 

His short-termism and decision making quality will only worsen as he coaches for his life in 2020.

So 2 decades ago one person blew the whistle? Given how performance based AFL contracts are, manipulating such results for the sake of marketing opens a very large can of worms.

Secondly, from your cherry picking attack on Goodwin, it's clear you're either result led by sensationalist media or deliberately missrepresenting the situation to suit your line of arguement.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/grand-final-was-the-real-lesson-for-the-demons-goodwin-20190307-p512hl.html

"The Demons coach did not spend long dwelling on the preliminary final blowout..." (not "did not review")

"The Demons did not do a regular play-by-play review of the game with their players because it was futile when they had played so far outside the way they know they should play, and outside the way they had been playing." (This doesn't imply the coaches didn't review it, and it didn't imply they still didn't review the overall game with the players, they just didn't hammer ever little mistake at the end of a long season)

“I tried to parcel our finals up into three. We had two really great experiences and one poor one. I certainly didn’t dwell too much on the way we played because it was nothing like the way the Melbourne team plays. But you do reflect on the things in our program we keep addressing and learning from,” he said." (Again, this implies they reviewed and took learnings from the game, they just didn't hammer the players about little [censored] on an overall horrible day)

 

If you want to maintain your position of conspiracy theories you at least need to substantiate it. The onus of proof is on you. 

 

Edit: for clarity, you're the one who tried to use your opinion of Goodwin to leverage the conspiracy theory of manipulating bnf results. My post talked about coaches and coaching groups in general, and applies across the board to all clubs. Just because you don't like Goodwin, doesn't mean all coaching groups manipulate bnf results. 

Edited by deanox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/13/2019 at 12:52 PM, TGR said:

On one hand, you have pub talk (who else but Yobbo) and PhD speak (Dermie try-hard) and Evangelical talk (who else but Monsignor Whately) where the consensus reached is that B&Fs are the real indication because only the inside know about covert roles etc...

On the other hand, they are absolutely corrupt and manipulated by other biases.  Player contracts that have an incentive clause in relation to B&F position for instance.  The other one is trying to flick off a player.  Now that we know the club think that Frost played 2019 out-of-his-skin, and Clarko will be fooled by this, it will be interesting to see where "supreme effort" and courage (with and without ball in hand) gets him in this year's B&F.  He is top 5 this year without one shadow of a doubt.  Something tells me, Goody and co. will make sure that he finishes in the teens.

As Keating once said, "in the race of life, always back self-interest".

 

pTGR

If you honestly believe that ...you are stating that the club you support is both dishonest & morally corrupt...god help us if we don’t have a good 2020...I can’t even begin to think of the the vitriol that will be posted 😩

  • Shocked 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, deanox said:

 

Edit: for clarity, you're the one who tried to use your opinion of Goodwin to leverage the conspiracy theory of manipulating bnf results. My post talked about coaches and coaching groups in general, and applies across the board to all clubs. Just because you don't like Goodwin, doesn't mean all coaching groups manipulate bnf results. 

You guys live in la-la land.

Do you really think that Goodwin, who wanted twiggy Lever for the price of $850 k per year, and 2 draft picks in a super-draft, is going to judge him any way but easy in relation to B&F voting?  Conversely, do you think Goody, who is trying to off-load Frost, is going to go judge him any way but harshly?

Votes per game, I will bet all my good stuff that Goody will give it to Lever.

 

Yet you have a real objective bonefide expert in Rooey, who stated the bleeding obvious.  Frost was our best defender in 2019 bar none.  Frost had 'supreme effort' and he would prefer to play on Lever and May.

 

Human nature.  Roosy wouldn't have Howe in Collingwood's leadership group at the moment....or indeed Dunn.

 

B&F's are absolutely subject to bias, and are more corrupt in my opinion, that objectively true.  Wonder if Frosty makes the top 20 in the B&F?

 

But you guys can clap the top 10, and convince yourself they are worthy.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/16/2019 at 11:16 AM, deanox said:

...

2) Coaches that cast votes are ... influenced by conscious/unconscious bias RE player performance, which also is the basis for making decisions on list management and players futures; so it isn't a surprise to see correlations or patterns in vote results and player movements. 

...

 

1 hour ago, TGR said:

.. 

Do you really think that Goodwin, who wanted twiggy Lever for the price of $850 k per year, and 2 draft picks in a super-draft, is going to judge him any way but easy in relation to B&F voting?  Conversely, do you think Goody, who is trying to off-load Frost, is going to go judge him any way but harshly?

Votes per game, I will bet all my good stuff that Goody will give it to Lever.

...

B&F's are absolutely subject to bias, and are more corrupt in my opinion, that objectively true.  Wonder if Frosty makes the top 20 in the B&F?

...

Ah, so you do agree with Option 2 then?

Edited by deanox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/15/2019 at 4:45 PM, Swooper1987 said:

I was staggered in 2016 when Gawn finished 3rd after a dominant AA year. Somehow Viney won the award that year.  Rob Flower won our B&F once and we were absolutely horrible for pretty much all of his career. I'd not be in the least surprised to see some "strange" results this year as well.

In Robbies day the club had a policy of sharing the B&F around....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Jontee said:

In Robbies day the club had a policy of sharing the B&F around....

I doubt that.  Laurie Fowler was a multiple winner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/18/2019 at 2:56 PM, TGR said:

>>>

Yet you have a real objective bonefide expert in Rooey, who stated the bleeding obvious.  Frost was our best defender in 2019 bar none.  Frost had 'supreme effort' and he would prefer to play on Lever and May.

 

well he was the only one who played all 22 games, so not surprising

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Social Media

  • Match Previews, Reports & Articles

    THE TRADING CHRONICLES 2019

    PART ONE - OVERTURE  I have a disclaimer at the outset. I’m not a fan of the races - be they horses or motors of any kind. Once the final siren sounds on the football season, I find the month or so that follows and corresponds roughly with the Spring Racing Carnival to be the most boring time of the year for sports fans. You turn on the radio and you’re confronted by the monotonous drone of a self-proclaimed racing expert or by the nasally twang of an ex-jockey banging on about the equine p

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Special Features 8

    CHANGES 2019 by The Oracle

    PART 1 - IT’S A LITTLE MORE COMPLICATED THIS TIME This year’s free agency, trade and draft period will see the usual drama and upheaval as the AFL’s 18 clubs seek to better their lists in order to challenge for finals and possibly premiership honours. Long before the final siren sounded on the season just over a week ago, the maneuvering was under way with player agents and clubs discussing possible player movements and in some cases, deals had already been done.  Yesterday, the r

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Special Features 1

    HOW FAR SOUTH? by George on the Outer

    It was appropriate that Melbourne was playing its last game of season 2019 in Hobart.  After all, how much further south could the team go? And much as it has done in many of the previous 22 games, the side managed to extract a loss from a winning position by simply giving the ball back to the opposition time and time again. In fact, they gave it back to the opposition to the tune of 53 points from turnovers while, by way of contrast North Melbourne contributed  only 17 points to their oppo

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports

    COOKED by The Oracle

    I can vividly remember when the Demons ventured onto Blundstone Arena for the first time in early 2016 only to lose to the Kangaroos by 20.11.131 to 21.10.136.    Melbourne was then a team on the up and up: young, enthusiastic and bold. It gave up a huge quarter time deficit after kicking against a strong wind but made that up by half time and fell dramatically short after an exciting high scoring affair.  The team lost no fans that day - they were willing to take the game on and attac

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Previews

    HELP by KC rom Casey

    The Casey Demons finished off their home and away season against Frankston at Skybus Stadium on Sunday with a narrow, unconvincing 6-point victory that left the door slightly open for a top eight berth when the VFL finals begin in a fortnight’s time. While sunny skies prevailed over Frankston in the morning, the skies became overcast by noon and heavy waves pounded the bay nearby as the rains came in to greet the players as the game started. And conditions stayed dark and dreary for the rem

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Casey Articles

    THANKS BUT NO THANKS by George on the Outer

    Thanks, but no thanks! In a round where the club was supposed to thank their fans for the support during the year, the Melbourne Football Club chose to do otherwise with a 53 point loss to a team that sat 15th on the ladder.  Don’t give us cheap jumpers that can’t be sold in the Demon shop.  Don’t give us vouchers to shop there, give us something on the field, which is why we come to the football in the first place. It was a disgraceful performance, which started with a disgracefu

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports

    SLEEP OUT AT THE MCG by The Oracle

    Around about 12 months ago Melbourne and Sydney fought out an epic battle between two top eight teams fighting for the best possible ladder position in the lead up to the finals. The Swans triumphed by 9 points at the MCG after the Demons came back from five goals down at three quarter time. But for its poor kicking for goal, Melbourne might well have won the game and finished in the top four. Who knows what might then have happened for the club in September? As a consequence, the person re

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Previews

    A LITTLE RAY OF SUNSHINE by KC from Casey

    Two clubs that have been hard hit by injury recently took part in a dour battle under dark clouds and, with intermittent showers falling, it wasn’t a pretty game at Victoria Park on Sunday. Despite all that, the Casey Demons added a little ray of sunshine to their day to get the job done over a "traditional" rival with a 15 point victory over Collingwood VFL that breathed life back into their season. There were a few highlights at the ground that in past days has seen many titanic batt

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Casey Articles

    THE RETRO ROUND by George on the Outer

    We have seen it all before… Yes, a wonderful idea to showcase what used to be in football.  Big crowds, umpires who knew how to apply the rules and not opinions, high marks, skilful players. But for the Melbourne supporters their retro is what it has been like for the past 10 years. Losing games, end on end, year after year.  Opportunities squandered in front of goal. VFL standard players running around at the MCG. Just more of the same, and the game against Collingwood was no ex

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports

    THE PEOPLE SPEAK by The Demonland Crew

    Thanks to Demonlanders for their input into this week’s preview. Ralphius Maximus is short and bittersweet: We'll crack in at the bounce to create a contest, win our share of the ball, butcher the forward movement and get scored on easily from the intercepts. Not that hard to predict. Big Demon says: Unfortunately Collingwood will win because they have a lot more to play for. We will be good in parts but really the season is well over so we will have to put up with those bell

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Previews

    WHAT, NO BLOOD? by George on the Outer

    The feeling when turning up to the MCG on a Saturday night to play a top four side in Richmond, while the Melbourne sits cemented in close proximity to the bottom of the table is like attending the Colosseum in Ancient Roman times. The expectation is that a bloodbath is about to occur. There are 100,000 Richmond members and 50,000 Melbourne members, and despite the fact that it turned out to be a wet night after half-time, a crowd of only 37K bothered to turn up. That should never have happ

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Match Reports

    A MAN’S ERRAND by KC from Casey

    A young and undermanned Casey Demons were sent out on Saturday to the Swinburne Centre in the shadows of the MCG on a man’s errand against a very experienced Richmond VFL combination which is the clear ladder leader and fielded no less than 18 AFL listed players. It was expected to be a rout and the Tigers made easy work of it in the early stages when they held a 26 point lead by quarter time. To their credit however, the Demons weathered the storm and kept their opponents within the range

    Demonland
    Demonland |
    Casey Articles

×
×
  • Create New...