Without really knowing I wonder if he was offloaded because he just wouldn't follow team rules. Goodies 'Frostball' comments make me think he went off sailing by himself one time too many.

1 hour ago, Demonsone said:

Hate to say it but Hawks will win a flag before we do!

Of course they will, but they still arent winning one any time soon.

1 hour ago, Uncle Fester said:

Without really knowing I wonder if he was offloaded because he just wouldn't follow team rules. Goodies 'Frostball' comments make me think he went off sailing by himself one time too many.

And I wonder about the role of Lever and May.

11 hours ago, A F said:

Old mate Bitters is more likely to be in that one.

Yes i am sure that he had his way with Miss G, when she briefly sauntered her way into Melbourne on that ill fated sojourn. He may well have been the cause of her demise whilst here...

On 10/19/2019 at 7:01 PM, Demonsone said:

Hate to say it but Hawks will win a flag before we do!

Going out on a limb here 

On 10/19/2019 at 7:41 AM, Traja Dee said:

My other sentiment is that it's human nature to overvalue what you current possess.

Refs:

- Mere Ownership Effect, Endowment Effect  

- Sunk Cost Fallacy

On 10/11/2019 at 6:06 PM, hemingway said:

More likely we will have an unfit/injured May and Lever during the season.

That's why sacking Frosty is a mistake. 

Surely, you can't expect them to manage the list with the expectation that they'll all be injured? 

I like Frosty, he was fun to watch but offering him 3 years on decent money isn't sensible list management.

Also, he wasn't sacked - that's hyperbole. He was offered a sensible contract and chose to leave. IMO, he made a good decision for his career but so did Melbourne, in terms of list management and player payments.

On 10/19/2019 at 7:19 PM, Uncle Fester said:

Without really knowing I wonder if he was offloaded because he just wouldn't follow team rules. Goodies 'Frostball' comments make me think he went off sailing by himself one time too many.

Plus May giving it to him against the Lions

Does Frost get in this 22? Patton presumably replaces O'Brien or Lewis.

Best 22 in 2019 if everyone was available
B: Jack Scrimshaw, James Frawley, Ben Stratton
HB: Blake Hardwick, James Sicily, Jarman Impey
? Isaac Smith, Tom Mitchell, Ricky Henderson
HF: Chad Wingard, Tim O'Brien, Jack Gunston
F: Paul Puopolo, Mitch Lewis, Luke Breust
Foll: Ben McEvoy, Jaeger O'Meara, James Worpel
I/C: Shaun Burgoyne, Tom Scully, Liam Shiels, Jon Ceglar

 

10 hours ago, WAClark said:

Surely, you can't expect them to manage the list with the expectation that they'll all be injured? 

I like Frosty, he was fun to watch but offering him 3 years on decent money isn't sensible list management.

Also, he wasn't sacked - that's hyperbole. He was offered a sensible contract and chose to leave. IMO, he made a good decision for his career but so did Melbourne, in terms of list management and player payments.

What do all clubs need? Depth. What didn't we have in 2019? Depth.  What is a preordained given? Injuries. In 2019, our 3 key defenders in May, Lever and Jetta spent most of their season injured. And they have injury history. 

So yes, you should manage your list with the expectation that you will need to cover for injured players.  

He was not sacked true enough. However, my understanding is that he was not offered a contract. He did not choose to leave. He left because he was not offered a contract with MFC. When the Hawks offered a contract, he had no alternative.   He did make the right decision for his career. It was the only decision that he could make. He was not given the opportunity to weigh up offers from both clubs. 

Did the MFC make the right decision in terms of list management. In my view, no. Did they make the right decision in regard to player payments? Perhaps, but we will never know, because no offer was made.  Given the huge contracts given to May and Lever, there is little wriggle room for others. 

In my view, the most likely reason for Frost's departure is that he did not fit the MFC gameplan. His unpredictability in regard to ball movement being a major concern.  The so called Frostball.  However, he was our best defender all season, played 22 games and was our most improved player in the second half of the season. And, unlike other defenders, he had genuine pace, could break lines and could play on talls and smalls.    Was he going to be a star? No, definitely not. However, he was worth retaining, not at any cost, but certainly worth an offer. 

 

1 hour ago, hemingway said:

What do all clubs need? Depth. What didn't we have in 2019? Depth.  What is a preordained given? Injuries. In 2019, our 3 key defenders in May, Lever and Jetta spent most of their season injured. And they have injury history. 

So yes, you should manage your list with the expectation that you will need to cover for injured players.  

He was not sacked true enough. However, my understanding is that he was not offered a contract. He did not choose to leave. He left because he was not offered a contract with MFC. When the Hawks offered a contract, he had no alternative.   He did make the right decision for his career. It was the only decision that he could make. He was not given the opportunity to weigh up offers from both clubs. 

Did the MFC make the right decision in terms of list management. In my view, no. Did they make the right decision in regard to player payments? Perhaps, but we will never know, because no offer was made.  Given the huge contracts given to May and Lever, there is little wriggle room for others. 

In my view, the most likely reason for Frost's departure is that he did not fit the MFC gameplan. His unpredictability in regard to ball movement being a major concern.  The so called Frostball.  However, he was our best defender all season, played 22 games and was our most improved player in the second half of the season. And, unlike other defenders, he had genuine pace, could break lines and could play on talls and smalls.    Was he going to be a star? No, definitely not. However, he was worth retaining, not at any cost, but certainly worth an offer. 

 

Hear Hear Ernie!!!!

1 hour ago, hemingway said:

What do all clubs need? Depth. What didn't we have in 2019? Depth.  What is a preordained given? Injuries. In 2019, our 3 key defenders in May, Lever and Jetta spent most of their season injured. And they have injury history. 

So yes, you should manage your list with the expectation that you will need to cover for injured players.  

He was not sacked true enough. However, my understanding is that he was not offered a contract. He did not choose to leave. He left because he was not offered a contract with MFC. When the Hawks offered a contract, he had no alternative.   He did make the right decision for his career. It was the only decision that he could make. He was not given the opportunity to weigh up offers from both clubs. 

Did the MFC make the right decision in terms of list management. In my view, no. Did they make the right decision in regard to player payments? Perhaps, but we will never know, because no offer was made.  Given the huge contracts given to May and Lever, there is little wriggle room for others. 

In my view, the most likely reason for Frost's departure is that he did not fit the MFC gameplan. His unpredictability in regard to ball movement being a major concern.  The so called Frostball.  However, he was our best defender all season, played 22 games and was our most improved player in the second half of the season. And, unlike other defenders, he had genuine pace, could break lines and could play on talls and smalls.    Was he going to be a star? No, definitely not. However, he was worth retaining, not at any cost, but certainly worth an offer. 

 

Yes i am having trouble working out the logic of our defensive trades. 
mostly because i don’t think Hibberd, Lever or Jetta will play a full season...

Happy to be wrong.

Frost broke lines like a champ, then turned it over, which meant that there were loose forwards over his head that kicked goals

Had to go 

 

Edited October 22, 20195 yr by jumbo returns

9 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

Frost broke lines like a champ, then turned it over, which meant that there were loose forwards over his head that kicked goals

Had to go 

 

Maybe it was also the players up forward mot running hard enough to make space. 
2 way street in my view

3 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Maybe it was also the players up forward mot running hard enough to make space. 
2 way street in my view

Frost struggled to hit targets by foot when he was on the run. Dashing like a headless chook and then delivering poorly (assuming he wasn't tackled) was a 'hold your breath' moment most weeks. Having said that, he did chip kick around more this season, which shows he's learning his own limitations.

He was fun to watch, but IMO he would've been overtaken by May and Lever in 2020. Petty, Omac and Hore will play their roles and supply support where required.

I'm much more concerned with our forward line than backs.

 

9 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Maybe it was also the players up forward mot running hard enough to make space. 
2 way street in my view

Respectfully, it can't be a 2 way street. There is a game plan they all need to adhere too. If the forwards lead but Frost ignores them and runs an extra 10 m they are all out of position and he can't kick to them anymore. They are caught out. Next time they don't lead because they wait to see what he will do. His random play ruins the structures.

11 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Frost struggled to hit targets by foot when he was on the run. Dashing like a headless chook and then delivering poorly (assuming he wasn't tackled) was a 'hold your breath' moment most weeks. Having said that, he did chip kick around more this season, which shows he's learning his own limitations.

He was fun to watch, but IMO he would've been overtaken by May and Lever in 2020. Petty, Omac and Hore will play their roles and supply support where required.

I'm much more concerned with our forward line than backs.

 

It's clear the footy club think McDonald and Weid and take us forward. We were the highest scoring team in 2018, without Hogan for periods, so the playing group can't be that far off.

I suspect they think the "connection" and "structure" is the reason for under performance rather than personel.

Adding Tomlinson and Langdon to the wings, allowing Gawn, Oliver and Petracca to rest forward more,  and have TMac, Melksham and Weid free of injury means a significantly differently functioning forward line than 2019.

Fingers crossed. 

1 minute ago, deanox said:

It's clear the footy club think McDonald and Weid and take us forward. We were the highest scoring team in 2018, without Hogan for periods, so the playing group can't be that far off.

I suspect they think the "connection" and "structure" is the reason for under performance rather than personel.

Adding Tomlinson and Langdon to the wings, allowing Gawn, Oliver and Petracca to rest forward more,  and have TMac, Melksham and Weid free of injury means a significantly differently functioning forward line than 2019.

Fingers crossed. 

Agreed.

At the same time, its not as if a key forward suddenly became a realistic trade option. Sure there were some forwards but arguably no available forwards that would have been a great get. 

No point bringing in players who may get a game but are not going to be an asset.  

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Maybe it was also the players up forward mot running hard enough to make space. 
2 way street in my view

Forwards pushed hard to be an option - he missed his mark by 100 yards

He might play in Hawks' best 22, but Clarkson will make him kick sideways

On 10/19/2019 at 8:19 PM, Uncle Fester said:

Without really knowing I wonder if he was offloaded because he just wouldn't follow team rules. Goodies 'Frostball' comments make me think he went off sailing by himself one time too many.

I’ve heard more an attitude issue than on field. Belief he will do well at Hawks but attitude didn’t fit model and wasn’t good for the young group coming through.

 

not sure what to make of it.

Clarkson is desperate to stay at the top, 4 premierships are not enough, he is inpatient and in depression because he wants that high again, his planning is all over the place Frost is uncoachable Clarkson will be tearing his hair outs. He is keeping players that will not take him back to the top, is he a better coach then the great norm Smith, even Smith's time came to a end.

On 10/22/2019 at 9:49 AM, hemingway said:

What do all clubs need? Depth. What didn't we have in 2019? Depth.  What is a preordained given? Injuries. In 2019, our 3 key defenders in May, Lever and Jetta spent most of their season injured. And they have injury history. 

So yes, you should manage your list with the expectation that you will need to cover for injured players.  

He was not sacked true enough. However, my understanding is that he was not offered a contract. He did not choose to leave. He left because he was not offered a contract with MFC. When the Hawks offered a contract, he had no alternative.   He did make the right decision for his career. It was the only decision that he could make. He was not given the opportunity to weigh up offers from both clubs. 

Did the MFC make the right decision in terms of list management. In my view, no. Did they make the right decision in regard to player payments? Perhaps, but we will never know, because no offer was made.  Given the huge contracts given to May and Lever, there is little wriggle room for others. 

In my view, the most likely reason for Frost's departure is that he did not fit the MFC gameplan. His unpredictability in regard to ball movement being a major concern.  The so called Frostball.  However, he was our best defender all season, played 22 games and was our most improved player in the second half of the season. And, unlike other defenders, he had genuine pace, could break lines and could play on talls and smalls.    Was he going to be a star? No, definitely not. However, he was worth retaining, not at any cost, but certainly worth an offer. 

 

Don't disagree with much you've said and if Frost was still playing for us on a contract befitting of a depth player, I'd be a happy supporter.

We obviously believe Petty, O Mac and Joel Smith are enough to cover the loss of Frost.

Fair enough logic if all those 3 can stay injury free and are good enough players.

On 10/19/2019 at 8:19 PM, Uncle Fester said:

Without really knowing I wonder if he was offloaded because he just wouldn't follow team rules. Goodies 'Frostball' comments make me think he went off sailing by himself one time too many.

What team rules would they be Fes?

1) Always hand ball to a person in a worse position and aim for their feet

2) Roost the ball long hoping Max has time to get forward after Goal saving mark in the backline

3) Take all the time in the world looking for some one moving to kick to al la Stretch and Wagner

4) Kick to a Chaotic forward line encouraging all forwards to jump for the ball

5) Fumble your marks

6) Ensure our smallest backline player ends up contesting with very tall opposition forwards

On 10/23/2019 at 5:35 AM, don't make me angry said:

Clarkson is desperate to stay at the top, 4 premierships are not enough, he is inpatient and in depression because he wants that high again, his planning is all over the place Frost is uncoachable Clarkson will be tearing his hair outs. He is keeping players that will not take him back to the top, is he a better coach then the great norm Smith, even Smith's time came to a end.

Agreed 100%