Roos + Lyon - On The Couch

[Moonshadow 17,557]

10 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

an interesting take on this topic would be to ask if any player has genuinely improved under Goodwin's coaching?

Harmes.. yes and maybe Brayshaw (the potential was already there perhaps) and Salem but hard to think of too many others.

Frost, Fritter, Hunt, Melk, Trac, Hore (albeit only 1 season)

Injuries may have stopped others.

[Sir Why You Little 36,674]

15 minutes ago, BillyBoy said:

I rarely post but often find the conversation interesting.

I have been a supporter since the late 1950s. I saw the 1964 Grand Final as a young boy. I go to about 16 games a year (from Newcastle, NSW!) I think I understand the game quite well.

But what I have seen this year (and last for that matter) are the following consistent facts:

1. Midfield gets the ball a lot but kicking delivery is very poor.

2. Mad-style handballs often to disadvantage instead of kicking.

3. Kicking accuracy in front of goal has been poor - set shots.

4. On-ball players often jogging whereas I see other teams' players running hard in similar situations.

5. Players regularly and persistently played out of position - this is a coaching decision. And inflexibility during games when problems are clear (see also point 7).

6. Chaotic bull-charge game style but not commensurate with the skill levels of the players. Would need very fast forward line and excellent kicking delivery which is not present.

7. Less-skilled players promoted in selection and persisted with when other more skillful players are left in the seconds, and, when they do get a chance in the AFL, their confidence or fitness is low.

8. High injury count - probably related to the chaotic game plan.

9. Consistently poor drafting and/or recruitment choices and poor development of top draft choices (with exceptions).

Thus, I do think 2018 was an aberration and agree with Gary Lyon. MFC does not have the sophistication of player skills players that the higher level teams seem to have and our seeming game strategies are incommensurate with the skills we have.

I have also never been impressed with the senior coach. He appears wooden and inflexible from where I sit.

Well said Billy. Most of those points you make are not injury related, but are skill and fitness based and a lot of attitude. 

I cannot understand why the skills and attitude are down this year. How much is the Football Department hurting? Why do players just jog around, including the Captain more than a few times...Why?

Keep up the good analysis 

[Diamond_Jim 12,369]

14 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Frost, Fritter, Hunt, Melk, Trac, Hore (albeit only 1 season)

Injuries may have stopped others.

Hunt ...you are kidding me

I suppose yes if you compare him to his VFL level of 2018..not exactly a high bar

Fritsch had a natural talent that has not been improved

Petracca... with his natural skill level can you call it an improvement

I'll give you Frost.. has been a  find

Edited July 23, 2019 by Diamond_Jim

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 minute ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Hunt ...you are kidding me

I suppose yes if you compare him to his VFL level of 2018..not exactly a high bar

Hunt is a funny one.

He had his best season in 2017 during Goodwin's first season at the helm, and then had his drop off in 2018 before returning to the Hunt of old, to an extent, this year.

Some will see his 2017 season as a product of his growth from the Roos years, others might see it as further progression under Goodwin.  I think there is a little bit of truth to both.

[binman 42,025]

18 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

2 of the four you have listed have gone nowhere in 2019.

Oliver.. improved... some would argue we are not developing a once in a decade talent.

I'll give you Frost and to a lesser extent Hore... he was a draft pick that went well... well done

Those 2 have been injured. When they went they improved.

You won't give gawn?

Oliver has improved, no question.

And you don't count Hore just because he was a draft pick?

He was dropped early in the season, came back into the team and steadily improved, until the injury God's took their pound of flesh. 

 

[Delusional demon 82 1,197]

30 minutes ago, binman said:

Perception is a funny thing. You use this information to mount a case how bad our season has been.

But that info more accurately reflects what PJ said about linear improvement being rare in tbe AFL and cautioning dees fans not to expect it.

5 clubs in 19 years have fallen back badly after making finals. That is statically significant. We are third on tbat list and we still have 5 games to go so might even get to the tiger's 8 wins.

And of course the tiger's famously won in 2017. So one of the 4 clubs (25% if you like) won a flag the following year after falling away. Interesting. 

I'll bet london to a brick the tiger's equivalent of demonland had the same number of card burning, nervous nellies wanting to sack that  yank chick and big Bennie gale and get rid of that bombers filth hardwick. And the same number of posters calling for calm and rationality.

History look rather kinder on the latter group.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/richmond/afl-richmond-fan-mario-from-doncaster-has-sen-hosts-in-stitches/news-story/2f4d820a12a7f4ca144cdf7d07a195b2

Rd 23 2016 - Richmond thrashed by 20 goals - Mario from Doncaster hysterics  comes to mind - 12 months later Richmond were premiers 

Rd 22 2017 - Pies fans fuming that buckley was exonerated from the clubs internal review and had contract extended after 5 years not playing finals - 12 months later get within a bees [censored] of a flag

Neither teams were expected to challenge the following year and under huge pressure - but hey it’s different we’re Melbourne, it’s not like we would ever be capable of a yo-yo season on season ! 

BTW I hope no one has spewed up on their Melbourne top yet ?  

[Diamond_Jim 12,369]

9 minutes ago, binman said:

Those 2 have been injured. When they went they improved.

You won't give gawn?

Oliver has improved, no question.

And you don't count Hore just because he was a draft pick?

He was dropped early in the season, came back into the team and steadily improved, until the injury God's took their pound of flesh. 

 

Gawn was a product of Roos...Goodwin reaped the benefits... the improvement I am speaking of is measured by taking a player like Stretch Wagners or JKH and turning them into a regular 22

In my opening post on this aspect I mentioned Harmes as a good example and Frost is another.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Diamond_Jim

[Moonshadow 17,557]

12 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Hunt ...you are kidding me

I suppose yes if you compare him to his VFL level of 2018..not exactly a high bar

Fritsch had a natural talent that has not been improved

Petracca... with his natural skill level can you call it an improvement

I'll give you Frost.. has been a  find

All of those have been reinvented and/or improved under Goodwin. That is what you posed.

And yes, Gawn has risen to another level duringvthe last 3 years

But I guess that doesn't suit the Goodwin-hating narrative, does it.

[Hatchman 539]

The same Gary Lyon that pushed the appointment of Mark Neeld and goaded his old mates like Connolly and Schwab to tank behind closed doors that led to the horror of the last 10 years?

You were a great player Gary and you gave great service to our club, but you have no effin idea about how to coach or build a club/culture in the year 2019.

Our injury list has been woeful, our pre-season was heavily compromised and we do not have enough forward line players with games of experience under their belt. The most is TMac and has spent 80% of his career as a full-back.  

It's just not our year hasn't been since before the bye

[DeeSpencer 24,796]

The criticism of Lyon comes from the fact he (either voluntarily or through coercion) wandered in to the club to have a bit of a dip at selecting coaches without joining the board and doing it properly.

He had the same thing in his coaching career where he dipped the toes in but never put it on the line.

He has nice TV skills but is a relatively lazy caller and panellist. There's little quality to his analysis. Whilst not actively bad like many in the industry he doesn't really seek out anything of interest. No advance stats. No tactical breakdown. 

There's a bunch of reasons we are where we are:

1. Injuries - losing May, Lever and Jetta for half a year screwed the backline and when they come back the best 2 forwards are out.
2. Lack of fitness after going all in for last year
3. A number of traded in players - Lewis, Hibberd, Garlett starting to trail off. By the way, the alternative to bringing in mature players in the Roos years was for the rebuild to take longer and slower and less chance of working. Can't have your cake and eat it too.
4. Recruiting failures in finding outside runners and small forwards - by the way we aren't the only club in that situation
5. Game plan - the advantages we had in 2017 and 2018, maybe even 2016 as well, have been found out. I truly believe our coaches got a lot out of the group in terms of tactics in previous years. Some worked, some didn't but we weren't boring and had a plan.
6. Coaching structure - there's something up with the McCartney situation, the Rawlings back to the forwards from Casey, Rooke etc.

Acting overly emotional doesn't help. We won 10 games in 2016, 12 games in 2017 and plenty of games last year. That's largely without Lever and May, with a very young Oliver, Harmes, Brayshaw, Salem and Petracca, with Jack Viney missing a lot of footy. 

The President seems like he's not just an empty figurehead and is dipping in to support the footy department with some leadership. We have an experienced CEO. Mahoney's been in the job a while now, if he's up for it he'll get some things done and work with Goodwin to fix some of the gaps in the list, in the coaching structure and in the fitness area. It's not easy to express all of that on a TV show so I'm hardly surprised the claim is 2018 was an aberration.

 

 

[Damo 3,254]

Yes. It is not our year. It hasnt been since september/october surgeries to many of our top players. Then many other "top players" didnt work hard enough in pre-seaon and everyone enjoyed their big heads. Im included in thinking like that as was most of Demonland.

But I believe we just need to consolidate this year and we will be back. We certainly didnt have the depth I thought we had. But Im now accepting that it was more bad luck than bad management but bad management was a close second. We need our best 25 available and we could repeat last year.

 

 

[Dr. Gonzo 23,749]

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Not exactly diving into detail regarding those games are you.

I wonder why.

What kind of detail? Detail like players unavailable (TMac, Lever, Melksham etc)? Having to play Petty as a KPF when he had never played there in his life? 

The fact we were up by 38 points late in the 3rd vs Carlton (should've been 10 goals if not for poor goal kicking again) and hung on with only 1 fit player on the bench?

The fact we would have beaten West Coast on the weekend if not for poor goal kicking (again!)

The post I responded to stated nothing had changed since the bye when that is clearly not the case. Our form has been better, our gameplan has been adjusted, our personnel is still in high flux and our execution (particularly in front of goal) remains poor.

[Dr. Gonzo 23,749]

3 hours ago, Damo said:

Much of last weeks game was very well played by the Dees. It is only when they concentrate on not stuffing up the mistakes creep in. If they could play unthinkingly and not let their brittle confidence sway, they would be quite ok against the Saints. Field kicking was low and hard and marks were one grabbers. But second guessing late in the game is going to be our downfall, if we cant get 3-4 goals up.

Confidence is also impacted by not finishing off the work in front of goal. Had Lewis slotted his 2 goals in the first quarter and Petty slotted his 2 gimmes (not to mention Gawn, Viney and Fritsch) we would have won. It's that simple.

[Dr. Gonzo 23,749]

3 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

All Clubs get injuries and surgeries. Part of the game. If this does teach the club anything, it will be to have AFL standard depth players, that i agree with. 

This Club has a history of dropping off after a “good” year

Like to compare the games lost to our best 22 this year compared to other clubs?

[Sir Why You Little 36,674]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Like to compare the games lost to our best 22 this year compared to other clubs?

Sorry Hunter, not exactly sure what you mean??

[Dr. Gonzo 23,749]

45 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Hunt is a funny one.

He had his best season in 2017 during Goodwin's first season at the helm, and then had his drop off in 2018 before returning to the Hunt of old, to an extent, this year.

Some will see his 2017 season as a product of his growth from the Roos years, others might see it as further progression under Goodwin.  I think there is a little bit of truth to both.

He had injuries throughout last year didn't he?

[Dr. Gonzo 23,749]

5 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Sorry Hunter, not exactly sure what you mean??

You said every club has injuries but ours this year have impacted our best 22 far more than any other side. Look at Geelong's and Brisbane's injury lists.

[Ted Lasso 18,790]

I think we have a very good list and one most opposition teams would jump at given the opportunity but i am much more concerned with the coaching/gameplan side of things 

1. all of the top teams have moved the ball a lot more conservatively and relied on forward speed and pressure. we move the ball too quickly, can't apply enough pressure when we get it in there. 

2. i don't think our forward set up or midfield set up work well. too many players get sucked in and really they just have to break even to win the ball and get it in space. and the forwards have no idea how to make space for each other. 

i think we desperately need to find a key forward, 2 pressure forwards and 2 outside midfielders with speed and elite skills 

if we end up with pick 2 i'd seriously entertain the idea of sending it to the Dockers for Langdon, Hill and some sort of other combination of assets. couple of elite outside players would seriously add to the side. 

[zeldacat 53]

If  3-4 weeks ago, most commentators were saying we should forget this year and start our preparation for next year.  Then in another breath they (and us fans) want to win games from where we sit on the ladder.  Not sure we can have both. I too would like to see the skills improve 100% that would at least make watching games more enjoyable and provide a glimpse of how we want to burst into 2020. I just don't think you can have both. 

This is a bitter pill to swallow, but its not like I haven't tasted it before!

[Soidee 1,496]

Leadership, leadership and leadership!!! Apart from Gawn, onfield this club has lacked leadership for far too long.  Get a leader who has the killer instinct like Selwood.  Selwood Hates losing with a passion.  Name a player on our list who fits this!!!

[Wiseblood 24,637]

5 minutes ago, Soidee said:

Leadership, leadership and leadership!!! Apart from Gawn, onfield this club has lacked leadership for far too long.  Get a leader who has the killer instinct like Selwood.  Selwood Hates losing with a passion.  Name a player on our list who fits this!!!

Jack Watts.

[Soidee 1,496]

I’ve never ever seen any of our leaders crack it at the group either onfield or post game losses in the rooms!!! They all just trudge off with a feeling of defeatist world.  It’s time folks this club find a leader who grabs the group by the scruff of the neck and leads!!!

[Grimes Times 1,278]

4 hours ago, JV7 said:

I actually can not recall a bigger drop off from a side in recent memory.

Sides that either won premierships or made prelims to drop off the next season but were still there abouts were;

Dogs (2016-17)

Hawks (2008-09)

Crows (2012-13) & (2017-18)

Port (2014-15) 

If it wasn’t for how pathetic the GC are we would be rock bottom, in reality we were extremely lucky to beat them. 3 of our 5 wins have been under a goal, it’s just not acceptable. This side could not be any worse then were it currently sits, it’s an absolute joke. Goodwin & co have escaped the heat so far this year, if we are 1-4 or the like in the first half of next year the clubs football department will be flipped on it’s head 

In reality we are extremely unlucky not to be in the bottom part of the eight. Have lost 5 games by 3 goals and under. Coulda shounda won any of these. With a fit squad, some confidence next year we win these games.

Its never as good as it seems and its never as bad as it seems

[Cam Schwab's Whiteboard 209]

We need to remove 'G. Lyon' from this and accept that it was also the other panel members in agreement with him. Regardless of the Neeld stuff, perhaps 'aberration' is the wrong word but the analysis is correct: Melbourne have been poor this year.

As I stated in another thread, what's worse is that the statistics that the club tells us are the most important are not where the issue is to be found. Contested Possessions and Inside 50s are where the value is for the coaching staff, as they have consistently told us that the brand is centered around winning the ball and winning territory. Slight falls in both of these categories should not equate to the poorest team of 2019, regardless of injuries, etc. 

The problem is that the team is failing in spite of the very things they profess to be what the 'brand' is  all about, and the only conclusion I can draw from all of the evidence is the assumption of the coaches that doing those things 'more' than last year will ensure continued improvement. Surely gameplan discussions are deeper than 'How can we construct a plan that wins those two categories?', however there is no evidence to suggest that this is the case. 'Win the ball, smash it forward and we will win out overall' - that's it? Gameplan, Recruitment, Narrative, Swapping of coaches in the offseason, etc. they all point to this single (flawed) belief and a lack of creativity in all facets.

 

Why did it take until at least half way through this year to acknowledge that they perhaps got it wrong with the gameplan?

Regardless of injuries, why can the team not run out 4 quarters?

Why was there no adjustment for the injuries that occurred? 

Why do we see the same errors each and every week?

There have not been any satisfactory answers from what the club has said or what the club has produced during games.

 

This is not to suggest that Goodwin is done, and I absolutely hope he is The Guy. But the approach needs to fundamentally changed. Until that is evident, Lyon, Brown, Roos, King, All of them are absolutely right - this team just doesn't get it.

[Lord Travis 10,492]

2 minutes ago, Soidee said:

I’ve never ever seen any of our leaders crack it at the group either onfield or post game losses in the rooms!!! They all just trudge off with a feeling of defeatist world.  It’s time folks this club find a leader who grabs the group by the scruff of the neck and leads!!!

Except Steven May recently, and he was chastised publicly for it.

Personally I think it was the best evidence of a player with natural leadership skills since the Neitz days. Our onfield leadership is one of our biggest issues, and it doesn’t appear like changing anytime soon. We need to build around Lever and May in this regard, as they’re clearly the best onfield leaders at the club.