Our Recruiting.

[Redleg 40,843]

I have watched nearly all games so far this year and IMO we are the slowest side in the AFL.

 

[whatwhat say what 22,700]

it's all well and good to highlight these four as having great starts for their new sides, but they were never actually 'on the market'

- linc mccarthy - was always going to the bears, cos his best mate neale was always going there
- lachie neale - was never coming to melbourne; wanted the anonymous lifestyle of brisbane
- gary rohan - was always going to geelong as it's where he's from
- luke dahlhaus - see rohan, gary

jarryd lyons might have been available, but i doubt if we were even looking at him; no one was, other than the bears

$cully was obviously never returning to us, and only wanted to go to hawks cos of their excellent injury recovery record

beams was only going to the pies and hogan was always going back to freo if the deal could get done, as was lobb

shiel was choosing btw big money deals at carlton or essendon

the only players on the 'active' market this last off-season were may / kolodjashnij package, wingard, newman, colyer, lloyd, scrimshaw, horlin-smith, setterfield, stengle, and maybe a couple of others around the edges

in hindsight players like setterfield or lloyd would be handy, but neither are world-beaters

wingard would've been great, but in an ideal world we'd have held our nerve and hold onto hogan

Edited April 7, 2019 by whatwhatsaywhat

[Redleg 40,843]

Only highlighted the 4 I used as an example. 

The thrust of my point is there are other types of players than the slow contested beast type. 

[scarlett 247]

1 hour ago, olisik said:

Issue for me is we seem to lose every trade.

paid overs for Lever

got unders for Hogan

got unders for Kent

paid overs for May

 

Compared to when you look at teams like Essendon who can bring in Saad, Smith and Stringer in one off season, or Hawks to can pickup Scully for pick 85. We consistently seem to come out worse for wear due to Mahoney poor negotiation skills.

 

We have well and truly lost the Tyso/Salem for Kelly trade now to.

We buy high and sell low. Pay pick 2 for tyson and salem. Played tyson out of position then trade him out for a third in line ruckman. Traded out a former number 1 pick for a second rounder.  Held onto to long. Traded out a zippy goal kicker for next to nothing. Traded in a back flanker/intercept defender for 2 first round picks. Traded put a proven young kpf who only was scratching the surface on what he can become for just the 1 first rounder and a second? And if i recall i think we gave something back. With this  first rounder we bring in a kpd who has soft tissue and discipline issues, who at 27 will be at his best for maybe 3 years and would have cost nothing in picks if we waited 12 months.

Every "expert" commented on how strong last years draft was. Draft picks are worth more in the draft some years compared to others.

[poita 3,896]

Our recruiting and list management has been absolutely abysmal for three years, and I have been saying as much for that entire time. Exclude Oliver and the problem is actually four years old.

We carry blokes on the list year after year such as JKH, Maynard, Smith x2 who are not AFL standard. We need to make an early call and turn the list over. Other clubs can do it, why can't we? West Coast won a premiership last year and still had 4 picks in the top 40 (plus 5 the previous year).

We trade out high draft picks for experienced players of questionable value. I get the May deal, although his durability has always been an issue, but the Lever deal was atrocious on all levels. If Kolodjashnij played more on the outside he'd be sitting in the stands. 

We waste mid range draft picks on guys like Spargo who are fundamentally flawed footballers. Neither Sparrow or Jordon excite me. 

We have zero ruck depth behind Gawn (I see Keilty and Smith rucked for Casey again today). We have zero key forward depth behind McDonald (Weideman is not an AFL footballer). We have zero midfield depth behind our only four AFL standard midfielders. There is barely a single brain cell between our entire defence.

We had about six blokes carry the side into the finals last year. A few of those have been found out this year and the rest are not capable of filling the void. Couple that with a coach who won't admit that his game plan is stuffed, and you can see why the ladder looks the way it does.

[Deemania since 56 6,609]

2 hours ago, Tony Tea said:

I would be surprised if our footy department overrated our list going into 2019.

Ditto Ratten. We need an assistant who knows Clarko Footy. Since Clarko himself has said that he likes to turn over his own assistants, let's have a lash at Yze.

The Oooze has been bubbling along in a coach's rack nicely for a while now. Maybe, with Jordan Lewis for experience and footy smarts, a team of the two could assist the FD overall. 

[Deemania since 56 6,609]

14 minutes ago, poita said:

Our recruiting and list management has been absolutely abysmal for three years, and I have been saying as much for that entire time. Exclude Oliver and the problem is actually four years old.

We carry blokes on the list year after year such as JKH, Maynard, Smith x2 who are not AFL standard. We need to make an early call and turn the list over. Other clubs can do it, why can't we? West Coast won a premiership last year and still had 4 picks in the top 40 (plus 5 the previous year).

We trade out high draft picks for experienced players of questionable value. I get the May deal, although his durability has always been an issue, but the Lever deal was atrocious on all levels. If Kolodjashnij played more on the outside he'd be sitting in the stands. 

We waste mid range draft picks on guys like Spargo who are fundamentally flawed footballers. Neither Sparrow or Jordon excite me. 

We have zero ruck depth behind Gawn (I see Keilty and Smith rucked for Casey again today). We have zero key forward depth behind McDonald (Weideman is not an AFL footballer). We have zero midfield depth behind our only four AFL standard midfielders. There is barely a single brain cell between our entire defence.

We had about six blokes carry the side into the finals last year. A few of those have been found out this year and the rest are not capable of filling the void. Couple that with a coach who won't admit that his game plan is stuffed, and you can see why the ladder looks the way it does.

A few selector - recruiter regionals might assist; those who are capable of all-round player assessments matched against the needs of the current game. 

[DeeSpencer 25,477]

We gave up a lot of picks for the Oliver swap, Vince, Melksham, Hibberd etc. Not to mention the May and Lever deals we really had to do (even if I’ve always been critical of the cost of those trades and suggested we bargain harder).

Even the list spots and picks required for Bugg, Lewis, Garlett it all comes at a cost.

I still have some faith in Jason Taylor but the reality is he didn’t have a lot of picks to work with for a while. I definitely think we have to turn over the rookies faster and use those spots on developing players.

The future of this list is still very good with our best dozen or so players hopefully set up and some reasonable depth - our bottom 6 right now are bad but not the disaster many think.

But a lot will depend on: Spargo, Petty, Baker, Bedford/Chandler, Jordon and Sparrow. We need 3 or 4 quality players from that lot but they might be 2 years away. 4 second round picks in that lot, they have to succeed more often than not and we have to find some quality from the later picks.

 

[Elegt 872]

21 minutes ago, poita said:

Our recruiting and list management has been absolutely abysmal for three years, and I have been saying as much for that entire time. Exclude Oliver and the problem is actually four years old.

We carry blokes on the list year after year such as JKH, Maynard, Smith x2 who are not AFL standard. We need to make an early call and turn the list over. Other clubs can do it, why can't we? West Coast won a premiership last year and still had 4 picks in the top 40 (plus 5 the previous year).

We trade out high draft picks for experienced players of questionable value. I get the May deal, although his durability has always been an issue, but the Lever deal was atrocious on all levels. If Kolodjashnij played more on the outside he'd be sitting in the stands. 

We waste mid range draft picks on guys like Spargo who are fundamentally flawed footballers. Neither Sparrow or Jordon excite me. 

We have zero ruck depth behind Gawn (I see Keilty and Smith rucked for Casey again today). We have zero key forward depth behind McDonald (Weideman is not an AFL footballer). We have zero midfield depth behind our only four AFL standard midfielders. There is barely a single brain cell between our entire defence.

We had about six blokes carry the side into the finals last year. A few of those have been found out this year and the rest are not capable of filling the void. Couple that with a coach who won't admit that his game plan is stuffed, and you can see why the ladder looks the way it does.

Sparrow and Jordan are rubbish. Watching rozee tear it up last night was frustrating given we gave away a first rounder for May 

[DV8 2,271]

14 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

We gave up a lot of picks for the Oliver swap, Vince, Melksham, Hibberd etc. Not to mention the May and Lever deals we really had to do (even if I’ve always been critical of the cost of those trades and suggested we bargain harder).

Even the list spots and picks required for Bugg, Lewis, Garlett it all comes at a cost.

People are seriously under-thinking and underestimating what it takes to change out our soft culture.   It comes from cutting deep into much adored players, first up...  then trying to replace them,  with types who offer what it is we want to replace in that culture.    Aggression and fight.   Some grit and mongrel.

Thats the basis for a competitive Club.

Then build ontop of that,  adding the skills, in layers. 

 

We have recovered very quickly from the time the AFL brought us PJ &  Roosy in... and our recruiting has been a large part of this. 

 

Now we are all getting too impatient, And we all want every player and every happening,  to be a linear progression.

[Dockett 32 1,239]

2 hours ago, Elegt said:

Sparrow and Jordan are rubbish. Watching rozee tear it up last night was frustrating given we gave away a first rounder for May 

Sparrow and Jordan are kids and might make you eat your words one day. To call them rubbish is crazy. They are not the cause of the clubs malaise.

Good to see Maynard find some form after some ordinary luck with injury and Billy Stretch hasn’t given it away. Would like them both to get a chance.

[Elegt 872]

32 minutes ago, Dockett 32 said:

Sparrow and Jordan are kids and might make you eat your words one day. To call them rubbish is crazy. They are not the cause of the clubs malaise.

Good to see Maynard find some form after some ordinary luck with injury and Billy Stretch hasn’t given it away. Would like them both to get a chance.

Maynard is a spud too, no afl traits

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

3 minutes ago, Elegt said:

Maynard is a spud too, no afl traits

If he is able to clean up his disposal and build a decent tank he won't be Elegt.  Bit of a ball magnet and extractor in close.

Give him a bit more time....you just never know.

[Deemania since 56 6,609]

29 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

If he is able to clean up his disposal and build a decent tank he won't be Elegt.  Bit of a ball magnet and extractor in close.

Give him a bit more time....you just never know.

There is that chance, as he can take on most of his size and a few of greater speed. He does have his polarity organised when it comes to that of the ball. There must be another couple of Seniors trials for him for experience, confidence and in the temporary elimination of those not actually performing, wouldn't you think?

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

21 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

There is that chance, as he can take on most of his size and a few of greater speed. He does have his polarity organised when it comes to that of the ball. There must be another couple of Seniors trials for him for experience, confidence and in the temporary elimination of those not actually performing, wouldn't you think?

I don't think we can afford any trials at this point 56.  If we were sitting 2 or 3 games clear at the top and coming into a short turnaround with some insiders needing a rest....a possibility.   A potential replacement for Jones, Viney or Clarry if injured 56 but he'll have to perform at a level of consistency at VFL if the powers that be are to sit up and take notice again and slot him straight in.

On the few occasions i watched him at VFL level last year, i recall my concerns were pace, disposal efficiency and decision making.

Having said that i'm still hopeful he can turn those aspects around and make a fist of it.  Has shown something in patches and certainly far from the worst player at Casey right now.

[godees 858]

5 hours ago, poita said:

Our recruiting and list management has been absolutely abysmal for three years, and I have been saying as much for that entire time. Exclude Oliver and the problem is actually four years old.

We carry blokes on the list year after year such as JKH, Maynard, Smith x2 who are not AFL standard. We need to make an early call and turn the list over. Other clubs can do it, why can't we? West Coast won a premiership last year and still had 4 picks in the top 40 (plus 5 the previous year).

This. I don’t know why we persist for so long with players that clearly will not make it and will always be depth at best

[DV8 2,271]

3 hours ago, Elegt said:

Maynard is a spud too, no afl traits

You and DD would know then,  that's why we recruited him.  to prove how bad we are. 

Maybe you guys together could find a nice shiny sleek number down Sth Yarra somewhere,  to sign up.

[Little Richard 6,262]

14 hours ago, Petraccattack said:

Hunt and Lockhart are looking good in their new roles though.

I am not as worried about our small forwards and pace as I was two weeks ago....  just hope they can both keep improving

Agree, and if Spargo can find his way back in on form, he and Gilderoy will be a dangerous duo.

[DeeZee 7,363]

I’m more worried about our key position talls.

If Weed or Preuss don’t come up we rely on an out of form TMac.

Joel Smith  is the key here , looked like the answer in the JLT but can be very injury prone.

Keys backs will be sorted once Lever and May return, but it could be too late to save us this year.

Edited April 7, 2019 by DeeZee

[Dr.D 1,771]

19 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Good thread.

I'm sorry to say but the Sparrow pick was a huge blunder for me. Absolutely gobsmacked we went for another inside contested mid when clearly our needs was for outside run and speed. I am sure he will become a good player but i just shake my head at why we thought he could compliment any further to our already growing contested mids.

Marty Hore was another pick that confused me.. another medium half back flanker?? Really!? 

Had my concerns with that drafting period at the time and nothing has changed since.

sparrow is quick. at least on paper. but he doesnt play quick and I'm not particularly excited about sparrow either because he is the epitome of what we dont need. his 2 handed ball drop is hard to watch.

[binman 42,684]

I agree with the op red. The issue for us now is we have an unbalanced list. Too much emphasis on contested ball winners.

That said where's the rule that such players also have to have terrible skills. Which, with the exception of Oliver, ours do.

The hawks are brilliant at trading for players that ensure a balanced list. I watched a bit of their game against the roos and frawley, windgard, impey and Scully were huge for them. 

 

[Redleg 40,843]

52 minutes ago, binman said:

I agree with the op red. The issue for us now is we have an unbalanced list. Too much emphasis on contested ball winners.

That said where's the rule that such players also have to have terrible skills. Which, with the exception of Oliver, ours do.

The hawks are brilliant at trading for players that ensure a balanced list. I watched a bit of their game against the roos and frawley, windgard, impey and Scully were huge for them. 

 

Not to mention McEvoy, Gunston and usually for 10 years Burgoyne.

[The Chazz 4,077]

One of our biggest problems is that we are rewarding blokes that have a crack, but often are of limited ability.  The Wagner's are a classic example of that - how can either be dropped after Friday night's game?  They went when it was their turn, and that's what we are trying to build our team around.  But when you are playing players of limited ability, you struggle to be competitive as a tam, and the results we are now seeing are showing that.

I said something a week or two ago that Goodwin's biggest issue is that he favours his "project" players over guys that can actually play the game.  If you want to reward blokes for effort, regardless of ability, then there is no way Petracca should've got a game after the Geelong game, and Stretch would be in the team.  Instead, he leaves Trac in, and brings in both Wagners, while Stretch is running around at Casey.

All the experts talk about how you need a strong bottom 6 every time a team plays.  Ours are terrible at the moment, which is why we find ourselves where we do.  The sooner the likes of AVB and Hannan get back from injury the better, as they do make our team stronger.  That's why I still scratch my head at the likes of Tyson being moved on so easily.  Would much prefer him running around at the moment than a Corey Wagner.

[beelzebub 23,313]

18 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

A few selector - recruiter regionals might assist; those who are capable of all-round player assessments matched against the needs of the current game. 

Here in lays the problem though. Our recruiting has been focused on players that suit the FDs shopping list. If this is the type of players they seek , as the ones they have drafted, to suit the game plan then in my view unless the game style changes they'll continue to seek the same.

If you don't change the direction of the ship...it's irrelevant who's on board as you're still going to end up in the same place/predicament.

[Demon3 2,541]

I love this Footy club and want them to do well every time they go one the ground, and i always think when they come off that they tried, win lose or draw.. and that's no different right now, i still love them, and i know the players are having a crack.

But it is time we prepare ourselves for a bottom 4 finish. there are mitigating circumstances i know, form and injuries are a real reason, it does affect some teams more than others, but we wont recover in time to make an assault on the top 8, i hope we do, but i think even the most optimistic among us will say its going to be really hard.

I watched the reserves yesterday really closely.. and without sounding like an alarmist, there were less than 2 redeeming features among that group. Harsh i know and we should give them time but if a 5ft 3 st gamer was the only reason to get a bit excited about then our problems are far more deep seated that we think.

Lever - unlucky with knee / May - Shocking start but can fight back - but our top end drafting again concerns me:

2018 - first selection - Tom Sparrow - Inside mid / pick 33 James Jordan - looks like Tom Sparrow / Pick 53 Nietsche - Knee reco / Pick 56 Marty Hore - Why did we need that sort of player? / pick 75 Toby Bedford - who knows??

2017 - pick 31 - Bayley Fritsch - nice player  / pick 37 Harrison Petty - strange selection at the time remains one now (lightning fast Jack petruccelle went next pick - currentl;y playing in premiership side) / Oscar Baker - outside winger - looks likely not a great choice 

2016 - pick 46 Mitch Hannan - Bulldogs reserves HFF player / pick 64 Dion Jonstone - Gone

Thats 3 years missing out on elite junior talent and the type of talent we need , pace on the outside.. .. and it will haunt us mark my words.. Because if we think Billy Stretch and Maynard and the wagner brothers and JKH and charlie spargo are the answers then as i say.. we should prepare ourselves.