Where can I get a copy? Herald Sun trying to charge me

Just go to the post by Demonland on the opening page of this thread.

Each of the interviews are there either in extract or in the case of Bailey in full.

Read them and make up your own mind

  On 05/04/2019 at 02:53, Sir Why You Little said:

But what is new?

We knew Bailey was compromised on here 10 years ago...

I don't buy it. Bailey would've got the job partly on the back of his strategy to "rebuild the list" with everything that goes along with that.

We got screwed in 2007 by Carlton tanking the Kreuzer Cup, we got screwed by the rule changes that would've seen us draft Watts AND NicNat in 2008 and most Melbourne supporters and the FD knew what the goal was in 2009. Its disingenuous to claim it was a "disgrace" in hindsight, Melbourne supporters would've been ropeable if we didn't secure picks 1 & 2 in 2009 by winning a meaningless game or 2. We all thought we were recruiting Hodge and Judd to set up the premiership midfield for the next 10 years.

Some of the things they refer to as evidence of tanking (playing players out of position, sending players off for surgery, being extra cautious with slightly injured players) has been happening forever and a day even before priority draft picks. It's called intelligent list management, Sheedy was doing it since the 80s.

  On 07/04/2019 at 21:17, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't buy it. Bailey would've got the job partly on the back of his strategy to "rebuild the list" with everything that goes along with that.

We got screwed in 2007 by Carlton tanking the Kreuzer Cup, we got screwed by the rule changes that would've seen us draft Watts AND NicNat in 2008 and most Melbourne supporters and the FD knew what the goal was in 2009. Its disingenuous to claim it was a "disgrace" in hindsight, Melbourne supporters would've been ropeable if we didn't secure picks 1 & 2 in 2009 by winning a meaningless game or 2. We all thought we were recruiting Hodge and Judd to set up the premiership midfield for the next 10 years.

Some of the things they refer to as evidence of tanking (playing players out of position, sending players off for surgery, being extra cautious with slightly injured players) has been happening forever and a day even before priority draft picks. It's called intelligent list management, Sheedy was doing it since the 80s.

Yep, the only thing we did wrong was we did it poorly.

We had the wrong people, alternate agendas and loose lips.

Other clubs did it better and some like Carlton had people at the top covering them.

Every team "manages" lists.. We just didn't manage to manage it very well and as have been for many a thing, were scapegoated by the usual suspects.

It should have been a non event but we make very handy cannon fodder.

  On 07/04/2019 at 21:17, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't buy it. Bailey would've got the job partly on the back of his strategy to "rebuild the list" with everything that goes along with that.

We got screwed in 2007 by Carlton tanking the Kreuzer Cup, we got screwed by the rule changes that would've seen us draft Watts AND NicNat in 2008 and most Melbourne supporters and the FD knew what the goal was in 2009. Its disingenuous to claim it was a "disgrace" in hindsight, Melbourne supporters would've been ropeable if we didn't secure picks 1 & 2 in 2009 by winning a meaningless game or 2. We all thought we were recruiting Hodge and Judd to set up the premiership midfield for the next 10 years.

Some of the things they refer to as evidence of tanking (playing players out of position, sending players off for surgery, being extra cautious with slightly injured players) has been happening forever and a day even before priority draft picks. It's called intelligent list management, Sheedy was doing it since the 80s.

Loose Lips was the downfall, but rookie coach Bailey was compromised, that’s why he was employed imo

We also got caught by a mood change, partly (but not solely) due to the rapid increase in sports betting. The consequence of the rapid rise in sports betting is not just a greater focus on sports integrity (and that's a good thing) but anti-gambling advocates use any tool available in the armoury to garner attention for their cause. Any hint that there might be something inappropriate happening in sport is pounced on as an argument by the anti-gamblers as to why sports betting is bad. 

It's interesting that the Essendon 'Doping Scandal' was spun as the 'Supplement Saga' in the media. I'd love to read an article which describes it for what it was, a deliberate and covert program to give its team a biological advantage through the use of exotic substances which were found by ASADA to be banned substances, hence a doping program overseen by the Essendon Football Department. 

  On 08/04/2019 at 00:50, chookrat said:

It's interesting that the Essendon 'Doping Scandal' was spun as the 'Supplement Saga' in the media. I'd love to read an article which describes it for what it was, a deliberate and covert program to give its team a biological advantage through the use of exotic substances which were found by ASADA to be banned substances, hence a doping program overseen by the Essendon Football Department. 

Nice attempt at diversion!

  On 07/04/2019 at 08:23, Neitz Blitz said:

Where can I get a copy? Herald Sun trying to charge me

I found a link via a SuperCoach facebook (I think) post which circumvented the paywall - and could download the pdfs from the HUN article. Hope that helps.

  On 08/04/2019 at 15:37, Skuit said:

I found a link via a SuperCoach facebook (I think) post which circumvented the paywall - and could download the pdfs from the HUN article. Hope that helps.

Maybe you can send him the pdf's ? 

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/new-dees-tank-claim/news-story/c8ef54215e6a8e118525c9294505ca16

 

Does anyone remember this game?  2009, vs. Sydney in Canberra.  I attended this one and remember thinking it was very, very clear we were working hard to lose (not the players, the coaches & selection committee). 

We made 7-odd changes from the previous round, and there were very strange match-day decisions.  We took players off the field just when they were getting momentum.  I think from memory, we had Newton and Paul Johnson in the forward line....and Jurrah on the bench for way too long. 

I'm surprised this game didn't get more attention.

not to mention the game where jurrah was on fire against the aints then proceeded to spend 20 mins on the pine

it was a disgraceful time and they should have done far, far better...like the filth, meth coke, and poos&wees before em, and made it COUNT at the draft table

instead we had 10 picks out of top 30 in three drafts and picked morton, grimes, watts, blease, strauss, maric, $cully, trengove, gysberts, and tapscott

you couldn't stuff it up both on- and off-field harder if you tried

Funny thing is we are discussing a sh-thouse side that couldn't win, yet was blamed for deliberately trying not to, when in reality it couldn't anyway.

Cheating to win games, is really so much worse than not trying to win, when you probably can't anyway.

Anyway it is history.

  On 08/04/2019 at 23:48, beelzebub said:

Maybe you can send him the pdf's ? 

Happy to do so - except I don't think I saved them and would just have to go through the same process as posted plus send them. But, if you're having trouble finding them @Neitz Blitz I can have another look for you and send them across. Shout out if so.

  On 09/04/2019 at 06:41, Redleg said:

Funny thing is we are discussing a sh-thouse side that couldn't win, yet was blamed for deliberately trying not to, when in reality it couldn't anyway.

Cheating to win games, is really so much worse than not trying to win, when you probably can't anyway.

Anyway it is history.

Yes, why doesn't anyone just consider the reason for losing so many games was Melbourne's team wasn't good enough? We as fans always want to think the best of our team, but sometimes you have to be realistic. After all, someone has to be on the bottom of the ladder, no matter how many, or how few games they win. The draft system was flawed. The AFL should not have nominated four as being the magic number. They brought this on themselves, and then they punished Melbourne for it. By the way, I'm sick of the bleating and preaching by past players (not all Melbourne, I'm looking at you Bartel) and coaches about what happened. Be quiet. Two dead men are not here to defend themselves. You are most certainly hurting their families. Shame on all them, and shame on the Herald Sun for bringing it all up again. Sick to the stomach. Fed up.

I reckon someone should ring up old mate Danky and see if'n he's still not cranky, he might have a few docs that might be worth releasing on TWSNBN, cats and navies that might be worth a good read..........good chance that will be on a PDF too.

  On 09/04/2019 at 04:58, Junior said:

https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/new-dees-tank-claim/news-story/c8ef54215e6a8e118525c9294505ca16

 

Does anyone remember this game?  2009, vs. Sydney in Canberra.  I attended this one and remember thinking it was very, very clear we were working hard to lose (not the players, the coaches & selection committee). 

We made 7-odd changes from the previous round, and there were very strange match-day decisions.  We took players off the field just when they were getting momentum.  I think from memory, we had Newton and Paul Johnson in the forward line....and Jurrah on the bench for way too long. 

I'm surprised this game didn't get more attention.

Doesn't anyone remember the Kreuzer Cup season.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Kreuzer

"Noted for possessing a level of agility and endurance unusual for a player of his size, Kreuzer was widely expected to be selected early in the 2007 AFL Draft.^[1] He was selected by Carlton with its priority draft pick (No. 1 overall) in the draft;^[2] Carlton received that draft pick only after losing its final round match against Melbourne in 2007, a controversial match which became known as the Kreuzer Cup. "

 

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/kreuzer-cup-stigma-remains-for-carlton/news-story/c98291bb85959e6e6f5bfa080b0dd3eb?sv=100af2de32c599b3d67b3503a0111f1b

'Kreuzer Cup' stigma remains for Carlton

Mark Stevens, HeraldSun    November 1, 2012 12:00am

"IF Andrew Demetriou is adamant any tanking "cold case" can be reopened at any time, then Carlton would be most nervous.

The stigma of the "Kreuzer Cup" in the final round of 2007, and the lame matches leading into it, just won't go away for the Blues.

They lost 10 matches in a row, ensuring they snared Matthew Kreuzer and had another early pick to nab Chris Judd, and assistant coach Tony Liberatore caused screaming headlines early the next season after an interview on The Footy Show.

Liberatore said he had never heard a directive from above for the Blues to deliberately to tank games, but said he could "feel it".

He said there were even jokes made among coaching staff.

"We wouldn't use those words (how do we lose), but another assistant coach would say, 'Tanks very much', or something along those lines in a jocular way," he said.

He added that he believed coaches from both sides had laid low in the Round 22 Carlton-Melbourne clash that would become known as the "Kreuzer Cup".

"In all honesty I think both coaches tried to lose it," he said.

They were extraordinary comments at the time ... even more extraordinary when you re-visit them in the current climate.

Yet, in an era before a fully fledged integrity department, the investigation was limited."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priority_draft_pick#Tanking

 

Don't forget to put a  'Tiger in your Tank' .  Caro Wilson.

... the Tigers were involved in the Kreuzer Cup seasonal fiasco's...  ending up with your captain, tCotchin.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/afl/tigers-winners-in-kreuzer-cup/news-story/0089707cdcc5e1ff656bb563948a3188?sv=4facd80a9da8638daaba56d190fd7e50

Tigers winners in Kreuzer Cup

FORGET the debate about Jack Watts and Nic Naitanui. That's done and dusted.   But there's another elephant in the room of overlooked No.1 picks -- a kid called Trent Cotchin.

When Carlton lost to Melbourne at the MCG late in season 2007 the Blues wept tears of the crocodile kind.

The loss meant they had secured a priority selection to snare Matthew Kreuzer with the opening pick of the national draft.

 

Ladder progression

• Numbers highlighted in green indicate that the team finished the round inside the top 8.
• Numbers highlighted in blue indicates the team finished first on the ladder in that round.
• Numbers highlighted in red indicates the team finished in last place on the ladder in that round.

	Team	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22
1	Geelong (P)	0	4	8	8	8	12	16	20	24	28	32	36	40	44	48	52	56	60	64	68	68	72
2	Port Adelaide	4	8	8	12	16	20	24	24	24	24	24	28	32	32	36	40	44	44	48	52	56	60
3	West Coast	4	8	12	16	20	24	24	28	28	32	32	32	36	36	36	40	44	44	48	52	56	60
4	Kangaroos	0	0	0	4	8	12	16	20	24	24	28	28	32	36	40	44	48	48	48	48	52	56
5	Hawthorn	0	4	8	12	12	16	16	20	24	28	28	32	36	36	40	40	40	44	48	48	52	52
6	Collingwood	4	4	8	8	12	16	20	20	24	28	28	32	32	36	36	40	40	44	44	48	52	52
7	Sydney	0	4	8	8	12	12	12	16	20	20	24	24	24	28	32	32	36	40	44	46	46	50
8	Adelaide	0	4	8	12	12	12	16	20	24	24	24	28	28	32	32	32	32	36	36	40	44	48
9	St Kilda	4	4	8	8	8	12	16	16	16	16	16	20	24	24	28	32	36	38	38	42	42	46
10	Brisbane Lions	4	8	8	8	12	16	16	16	16	18	18	18	18	22	26	30	34	38	38	40	40	40
11	Fremantle	0	0	0	4	8	8	12	12	16	16	20	20	24	24	24	28	28	32	36	36	40	40
12	Essendon	4	8	8	12	12	12	12	16	20	24	28	28	32	32	32	32	36	36	36	40	40	40
13	Western Bulldogs	4	4	4	8	12	12	16	20	20	20	24	28	28	32	36	36	36	38	38	38	38	38
14	Melbourne	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	4	8	8	8	12	12	12	12	12	16	16	16	20
15	Carlton	4	4	8	8	8	8	8	8	8	12	16	16	16	16	16	16	16	16	16	16	16	16
16	Richmond	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	2	2	6	6	6	6	6	6	6	10	10	14	14

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_AFL_season#Ladder_progression

.

Edited April 9, 20196 yr by DV8

Carlton had previously practiced their tanking skills in 2006 with the Gibbs cup before fronting up again in 2007 for the Kreutzer cup...

Seriously, and we get the label...

When Essendon and Carlton met in round 16 of 2006, the sides were firmly entrenched at the bottom of the ladder, with Carlton having lost its last seven games and Essendon a then-club-record fourteen. Speculation that the result would decide the wooden spoon (and hence the first draft pick) led to the game jokingly being dubbed the "Bryce Gibbs Cup" by some in the media.^[3] The match ended in a draw.

We have NO influence at AFL

They toy with us.

Reading all of this makes me so mad, not good. 

  On 09/04/2019 at 11:08, beelzebub said:

We have NO influence at AFL

They toy with us.

Given the recent incidents and lack of penalties for them, May and us got truly shafted, again.

I remember the lead up to the Kreuzer cup . I think they had two Players retired on the second last week of the season... so they didn’t play against us and possibly lift the side. They were much better prepared fr it than we were. 

I remember the sun interviewing people on the day before re their thoughts  about winnng and no one was saying any side should try to win. It was so frikn accepted then. I remember the then Carlton president saying he didn’t want to sweat too much and wanted to lose by a comfy 5 goals. 

 

Speaking of tanking, was someone putting on a little bit of a Willesee performance on 360 tonight?

 

  On 09/04/2019 at 11:45, Wells 11 said:

I remember the lead up to the Kreuzer cup . I think they had two Players retired on the second last week of the season... so they didn’t play against us and possibly lift the side. They were much better prepared fr it than we were. 

I remember the sun interviewing people on the day before re their thoughts  about winnng and no one was saying any side should try to win. It was so frikn accepted then. I remember the then Carlton president saying he didn’t want to sweat too much and wanted to lose by a comfy 5 goals.

And if I recall correctly,  there was no betting conducted on the Kreuzer cup either ... that was announced on the Tuesday prior.   You can't imagine that ever happening now.  But again,  washed over.

Should have been called the Judd cup because that was the real prize (Judd was actually tanked for twice - that's something he could tell his grandchildren)

Tanking was so widespread back then yet our sporting media never spoke about it (at all) ... apart from the odd snickering disguised jibe.  It went from that to an isolated super-serious investigation with our team being singled out.

And people wonder why footy is described as lies.