Lyon: Oliver is Demons best EVER midfielder

[hemingway 7,633]

2 minutes ago, Hillary Bray said:

As in Kohl? Not sure his family would appreciate that.

Well the German name Helmut does mean Helmet in English.  

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Well the German name Helmut does mean Helmet in English.  

I wasn't aware that the random insertion of foreign lexicon was part of the prevailing zeitgeist. I assume it may provide a certain je ne sais quoi to proceedings.

[Devil is in the Detail 883]

59 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Clarry should start wearing a helmut

3 votes: C. Oliver

Or a Crown

[Slartibartfast 18,125]

20 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Amazing how Garry Lyon is universally supported on this site for his assessment of Oliver but totally vilified for his role in choosing coaches. Apparently he only knows some things about football.  

Fancy having a crack at people for discussing the topic and not playing the man!  I don't rate Lyon personally but I agree on Oliver.  Having said that it's not a big call.  Our lack of elite mids since 1964 is quite embarrassing really.

18 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Cripps gets plenty of love, and rightly so, for being a fantastic footballer, but he stands out in a rubbish football side. 

 

Poor old Robbie.  I always really rated him but I'll have to reconsider now. 

I think it's harder to play well in a rubbish side.  Cripps and Robbie stand/stood out because they are/were fantastic footballers.

[Engorged Onion 10,226]

I say - good on Garry for using his media position to raise awareness to just how good Clarry actually is... There is no doubt that the media darlings get the votes (except for Trac). 

On a side note - Remember when Wowoedin went platinum blonde in 2000 so he stood out??

Also how good was Wowoedin''s 17 bounces from the half back line... if anyone's got some vision of it - better than McGuane methinks...

Just found it at the 25sec mark

Edited March 5, 2019 by Engorged Onion

[Wiseblood 24,637]

59 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Fancy having a crack at people for discussing the topic and not playing the man!  I don't rate Lyon personally but I agree on Oliver.  Having said that it's not a big call.  Our lack of elite mids since 1964 is quite embarrassing really.

Poor old Robbie.  I always really rated him but I'll have to reconsider now. 

I think it's harder to play well in a rubbish side.  Cripps and Robbie stand/stood out because they are/were fantastic footballers.

That wasn't my point.  I acknowledged that he is a fantastic footballer, like Oliver, but that he probably gets a few more plaudits as he plays in a side without many other players at his level and therefore stands out a little more.  That's all.

[Wrecker45 3,381]

18 hours ago, jnrmac said:

He's lost a few Kegs since his Morrish medal win....

Looks like Petracca with red hair.

[What 18,810]

1 hour ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Our lack of elite mids since 1964 is quite embarrassing really.

 

Our lack of elite players since 1964 is quite embarrassing really.

I would hate to see our best 22 of the last 40 years compared to all the other teams.  (Fitzroy, Gold Coast and GWS excluded).

[tiers 2,883]

I suspect that our best 22 over the last 40 years would surprise.

It was not just the lack of talent that caused the misery, it was the timing. We rarely had the group of champions together injury free at the same time.

Imagine if we had had outstanding talents such as Flower, Wells, Alves, Lyon, Schwarz, Jakovich, Stynes, Wilson, Healy, Smith, Fowler, Lovett B, Farmer, Neitz, Woewodin, Moore, Wight, Viney T, White, Johnstone, Tingay, Charles in the same era.

I would put them up against any combination of 22 from any other team.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 17,137]

34 minutes ago, tiers said:

I suspect that our best 22 over the last 40 years would surprise.

It was not just the lack of talent that caused the misery, it was the timing. We rarely had the group of champions together injury free at the same time.

Imagine if we had had outstanding talents such as Flower, Wells, Alves, Lyon, Schwarz, Jakovich, Stynes, Wilson, Healy, Smith, Fowler, Lovett B, Farmer, Neitz, Woewodin, Moore, Wight, Viney T, White, Johnstone, Tingay, Charles in the same era.

I would put them up against any combination of 22 from any other team.

I expect we would lose to every other equivalent team with the exception of Gold Coast and (maybe) GWS. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,468]

They've got a good writeup on him in the AFL Prospectus this year as the player of the year for 2018.

[monoccular 17,765]

On 3/4/2019 at 12:17 PM, hemingway said:

I went to Shepparton to look at a couple of players close-up.

Oliver was one of those players.

He may not be a brilliant high mark or play with the dash of others.  He is not a Dusty Martin or a Robert Flower but as I watched the game I began to realize that this son of Mooroopna is already one of the great players of the MFC and a future great of the game.

Outstanding people in life have a unique set of skills that set them apart from others. It is an hereditary trait. It can't be practiced or copied. If you think of all the great footballers over time, they were unique and special. The Tigers have Dusty and we had Robert Flower. When thinking of Flower it is with the privileged memory of a player whose like we will never see again.

We have some great young footballers. However, they do not all possess a distinguishing characteristic that makes the way they play unique.

Angus Brayshaw is a ball magnet but I would not walk over hot coals to watch him play. But I would walk over hot coals to watch Oliver.   

Wiseblood, Clint and Tony have described his attributes perfectly.

What amazes me watching him is his mind-body connection. The speed of his brain, the assessment of the situation, the decision making and the speed in which he uses his body and hands to possess the ball and do something with it is unbelievable until you see it. He is so quick that unless you are fully focussed, you miss it.  And this speed means that his opponents miss it and also miss his delivery. You don't know where the ball is going to go. As others have pointed out he is often to quick for his team mates.  

As a result of his unique skills, Oliver is almost impossible for opponents to counter and match up, at least for the whole game. Oliver may be held or his influence reduced,  but he will still manage to break out and do something special.  

His speed of decision making and action is something that I have not seen before. It is beyond belief.

Eloquent as ever Ernest. 

What I see as his very special gift / talent is his amazing vision. As if he has eyes in the back of his head. 

On 3/4/2019 at 2:15 PM, In Harmes Way said:

Time to bring out the ole one handed pickup. The boy's a magician.

Ridiculous.  One of my favorite moments in a trajectory altering game. 

On 3/4/2019 at 6:08 PM, CBDees said:

Clarry’s engineering of a double 50-metre penalty yesterday was legendary!  The best TV viewing I have seen in a long time! ?

Does anyone have a clip / GIF or whatever they are called. 

[a la johnny beckwith 25]

On 3/4/2019 at 5:40 PM, Deespicable said:

I didn't hear Lyon, but if he rated Oliver the best he's seen at Deeland, then he's pretty much on the money in my opinion.

Garry would never have seen Ronald Dale or Brian Dixon and I doubt he saw Stan Alves or Greg Wells in demon colours, so there's really only one player ahead of him and it's already been pointed out that 'Tulip' Robbie Flower was very much an outside mid. Gerard Healy's final year at our club in 1985 was Oliver-esque but much of his early years were spent as a forward, so i've left him out of my list below, but he's the only other player who can be mentioned in the same breath as these guys. Also left out on a positional basis were Adam Yze, Steven Febey (best work as half back), Brett Lovett (same) and Glenn Lovett (half forward).  I also remember more of Willow as our gifted umpy-appealing forward, even though he was a pure mid for his Brownlow year with us and flipped spots a bit. 

My 10 best Dee mids I've seen (which dates back to 1971) are:

1) Robbie Flower - Kept our club alive with hope in the 70s and early 80s. Could do anything, just watch any state game highlights.

2) Clayton Oliver - only a small sample, but his past two years have been huge and he's getting more confident in taking the game on.

3) Todd Viney - a bit wonky with his kicking at times, but grunt work was exceptional. Made everyone walk taller when he played.

4) Greg Wells - an unbelievable mark for his size and he didn't even have a leap - just great at positioning his body.

5) Stan Alves - one of the first to realise the importance of fitness and out on his wing, he found space.

6) Jack Viney - if he can keep injury free then he'll climb up the order. He's our Joel Selwood.

7) Stephen Tingay - when he was hot during the early 90s, so were we. Had courage and a damaging kick on the run.

? Nathan Jones - we all know he's a hard worker, but he's also very elusive for a bloke who's not exceptionally quick.

9) Shane Woewodin -OK, the haters are going to hate, but his 2000 year was inspiring and we did make the GF largely because of him.

10) Andrew Obst - a tremendous work ethic over a number of years and better in traffic than Sugar Healy IMO.

Likely to be on this list in a couple more years: Gus and Harmes

 

Not too many issues with this - but no room for Junior McDonald?

 

Has to be in the discussion surely. Not much love for him in this discussion so far. Would probably have him in before Woewodin.  

[picket fence 18,261]

Im Clarry CHOO CHOO TRAIN

Get the bejezus outa my way!!

[DubDee 26,817]

It’s a big call until you think about our midfield over the past 30 years. Oliver is clearly the best after just 3 seasons

Some good mids over the years but the lack of stars is remarkable

[Gator 18,057]

8 hours ago, tiers said:

I suspect that our best 22 over the last 40 years would surprise.

It was not just the lack of talent that caused the misery, it was the timing. We rarely had the group of champions together injury free at the same time.

Imagine if we had had outstanding talents such as Flower, Wells, Alves, Lyon, Schwarz, Jakovich, Stynes, Wilson, Healy, Smith, Fowler, Lovett B, Farmer, Neitz, Woewodin, Moore, Wight, Viney T, White, Johnstone, Tingay, Charles in the same era.

I would put them up against any combination of 22 from any other team.

In a bad way.

I saw every player you mentioned and there's not one great of the game other than Flower.  There are greats of the MFC, but not greats of the VFL/AFL competition.

There were great stories, like Stynes, who was a champion of the MFC, but wasn't a great of the game.  Simon Madden and Dean Cox are greats of the game, but Stynes falls short of their lofty status.  By the end of his career, if not now, Gawn will go down as a better player than Stynes.  For me he's already better.

In the midfield group you've listed there is not a single champion midfielder in the Voss, Black, Judd, Ablett, Riccuito, Williams, Buckley, Fyfe mould.  There's no Matthews, Bartlett, Skilton.

There's no Lockett, Dunstall, Carey, Lloyd, Riewoldt, Brown, Quinlan.  Or Blight, Jezza, or Hudson.

And I've missed many.

In fact, I don't recall a single club with as little star power as Melbourne in the last 50 years.  We're simply bereft of the ''greats''.

In my opinion our best ''collective'' would be the worst in the league among the established clubs.

I could not disagree with you more.

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by ProDee

[Watson11 2,252]

Oliver is super quick.  He'll win a brownlow when he uses his pace on the outside a bit more and kicks as much as he handballs.  He could win two or three when that happens. 

[binman 44,917]

6 hours ago, ProDee said:

In a bad way.

I saw every player you mentioned and there's not one great of the game other than Flower.  There are greats of the MFC, but not greats of the VFL/AFL competition.

There were great stories, like Stynes, who was a champion of the MFC, but wasn't a great of the game.  Simon Madden and Dean Cox are greats of the game, but Stynes falls short of their lofty status.  By the end of his career, if not now, Gawn will go down as a better player than Stynes.  For me he's already better.

In the midfield group you've listed there is not a single champion midfielder in the Voss, Black, Judd, Ablett, Riccuito, Williams, Buckley, Fyfe mould.  There's no Matthews, Bartlett, Skilton.

There's no Lockett, Dunstall, Carey, Lloyd, Riewoldt, Brown, Quinlan.  Or Blight, Jezza, or Hudson.

And I've missed many.

In fact, I don't recall a single club with as little star power as Melbourne in the last 50 years.  We're simply bereft of the ''greats''.

In my opinion our best ''collective'' would be the worst in the league 

 

Largely agree with much of this. Wells pretty close to great. And perhaps also Elves. Not sure quite there though.

In my time,the only unarguable great'  has been flower. I reckon Gary hardeman, who was an out and out star, might also be  close. 

This lack of star power not only has meant poor performance but is also a huge factor in our low membership. 

But things are changing. Blind freddy can see Oliver is destined to be a great. Gawn will be the best ruxk of his generation. A definite great. Brayshaw might be in the mix. Viney probably not on talent but perhaps through sheer force of will, leadershipand desire might be considered a great after his career finishes. A bit like Hodge..

[La Dee-vina Comedia 17,137]

2 hours ago, binman said:

Largely agree with much of this. Wells pretty close to great. And perhaps also Elves. Not sure quite there though.

In my time,the only unarguable great'  has been flower. I reckon Gary hardeman, who was an out and out star, might also be  close. 

This lack of star power not only has meant poor performance but is also a huge factor in our low membership. 

But things are changing. Blind freddy can see Oliver is destined to be a great. Gawn will be the best ruxk of his generation. A definite great. Brayshaw might be in the mix. Viney probably not on talent but perhaps through sheer force of will, leadershipand desire might be considered a great after his career finishes. A bit like Hodge..

I assume you mean Brad Hodge. Because Luke Hodge has all those traits you've ascribed to Viney AND talent. (Otherwise I agree with the rest of your excellent post).

[binman 44,917]

19 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I assume you mean Brad Hodge. Because Luke Hodge has all those traits you've ascribed to Viney AND talent. (Otherwise I agree with the rest of your excellent post).

Yep you're probably right about like Hodge on the talent front. 

There is a pretty good objective measure for 'greatness'. Any player picked in the hall of fame can be considered great. Hodge for example is a certain hof player

[Slartibartfast 18,125]

20 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

That wasn't my point.  I acknowledged that he is a fantastic footballer, like Oliver, but that he probably gets a few more plaudits as he plays in a side without many other players at his level and therefore stands out a little more.  That's all.

Okay, but he stands out against the opposition regardless of who they are and is fantastic.  But there isn't a lot of Carlton players to distract your attention I agree.  I'm probably on my own but I think Carlton will improve quite a lot this year, hopefully enough to make games interesting if not win them.

[Adam The God 30,772]

On 3/4/2019 at 10:13 AM, chook fowler said:

Gus wont be far behind - especially if he tidies up his disposal. Two absolute stars who also seem dedicated to the club. Love what Harmes is bringing as well. 

Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes being fed by Max is enough to salivate over. All of the first 4 are under 25 (Viney turns 25 in April). 

At the top of their game, they have the perfect blend of ball-winning ability, pace and hardness that goes past any other midfield in the comp. Collingwood's is comparable, but it's a lot older. Take Pendles and Sidebottom out in 2-3 years time and they become decidedly suspect.

Oh, and Clarry is only behind Martin and Dangerfield for mine. I think he'll go past Dangerfield this year and if he can add more goals, he'll become more effective than Martin, because unlike Martin, he's a great disposer of the ball by hand and foot.

Edited March 6, 2019 by A F

[What 18,810]

Still waiting for Clayton to hit the scoreboard.. it is the next step in his evolution.   The guys good enough to be kicking a lot of goals , a la Dangerfield and Martin.

I know we need him around the ball but we need to find a way to get him some time playing inside 50, maybe even isolate him at times from the goalsquare.    He is a beast and if he wants the ball he gets it.  Kicked bags of goals in the juniors.  Putting it through the big sticks will be a piece of cake.

 

 

[Adam The God 30,772]

He started forward for a few weeks in a row, but they stopped that because we couldn't get the delivery right.

When we start to deliver better inside 50 and set up better forward, Oliver one out will be a dangerous player. 

[Thehardtackler 785]

I thought Travis Johnstone showed glimmers of genius as a midfielder but he lacked the consistency and application of Clarry.