2 hours ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

If part of Tim Smith’s role is to chop out in the ruck, then Weed is a much better option. You need more strings to your bow than just laying tackles, not that six is an outstanding amount anyway. 

Ethan he spent a slab of time in the ruck and also spent only 57% of time on the ground (probably due to head knock) and still came equal 4th in the tackle count on the night.

He also laid 3 of those inside 50.  Only bettered by Melk with 4 who had 84% game time.

Smith is 2nd (only to Clarry) in Tackle averages this season and also leads the average tackle count inside 50 this season.

We hear so much in the press, footy world and on here about forward 50 pressure so if you want forward 50 pressure Smith is the best at it for the MFC right at this moment....all while providing a chop out in the ruck!

He definitely needs to do more but with only 57% game time and giving a chop out in the ruck he had limited opportunity.  I only saw him make one mistake on the night and that was after laying a tackle just outside 50, winning the free kick, but then kicking it long to a vacant pocket (nobody) for a point when he should have gone somewhere closer to a hot zone near goal or looked for a target short.  Goody was livid and Coaches tend to remember this stuff when you are trying to break in to a team.

I'd go Petty for Vince and Spargo or Jeffy for ANB. 

I reckon the FD are determined to play Vince, which really tells a tale, RE: the inexperienced list. He was done half way through 2017 and shouldn't still be playing.

5 hours ago, Knuckles said:

I understand Max Rooke is our forward line coach. Does he need to take some responsibility for McDonald and Hogan being so close together inside fifty on Friday night making the long kicks even more predictable. Surely it was obvious they needed to spread the Port defenders more.  

Bluddyoath. The return of the bomb means indirect across the whole game.

1 hour ago, Deestar9 said:

BAsic ...average expectations...hmmmm

Nope. Everyone is content with finals. Nope. Nope.com.

low expectations is why we are where we are. It's why jones needs looking at. And petracca. And Lewis. And Vince. And others

16 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Ethan he spent a slab of time in the ruck and also spent only 57% of time on the ground (probably due to head knock) and still came equal 4th in the tackle count on the night.

He also laid 3 of those inside 50.  Only bettered by Melk with 4 who had 84% game time.

Smith is 2nd (only to Clarry) in Tackle averages this season and also leads the average tackle count inside 50 this season.

We hear so much in the press, footy world and on here about forward 50 pressure so if you want forward 50 pressure Smith is the best at it for the MFC right at this moment....all while providing a chop out in the ruck!

He definitely needs to do more but with only 57% game time and giving a chop out in the ruck he had limited opportunity.  I only saw him make one mistake on the night and that was after laying a tackle just outside 50, winning the free kick, but then kicking it long to a vacant pocket (nobody) for a point when he should have gone somewhere closer to a hot zone near goal or looked for a target short.  Goody was livid and Coaches tend to remember this stuff when you are trying to break in to a team.

Of all things for Goodwin to be livid about and drop someone for, this isn't the droid you're looking for

2 minutes ago, timbo said:

Of all things for Goodwin to be livid about and drop someone for, this isn't the droid you're looking for

I'm just saying it's possible Timbo and wouldn't have helped his cause given his contribution on the day.  He is more than likely considered a fringe player at the moment i would guess.

1 hour ago, Hompy said:

Im quite concerned for Jetta. 
He's had history of concussions and has spent some good time on the sidelines recovering.

With the recent media attention on Jetta, we had learnt abound his 'keeping his feet' philosophy. After the clash of heads I immediately thought the worst,  so seeing him get up and try to lay a tackle (and give away a free/goal) made me feel uneasy.

Wouldn't be surprised to see him rested or out with injury. Certainly hoping he plays.  

He wasn't in a good way.  But Ireckon the high contact was caused by the Port player ducking and trying to evade the tackle. 

1 minute ago, deanox said:

He wasn't in a good way.  But Ireckon the high contact was caused by the Port player ducking and trying to evade the tackle. 

Why doesn't he wear a Brayshaw

Didn't Jetta come back on the field? If that'a the case I would assume he didn't have concussion.

Judging by Goodwin's comments on Saturday I would say we will be bringing in a tall defender. My pick would be Frost based on the VFL reports. He has all the ability, just needs to do the simple things more often.

15 minutes ago, deanox said:

He wasn't in a good way.  But Ireckon the high contact was caused by the Port player ducking and trying to evade the tackle. 

Bravest player in the game.

3 hours ago, ProDee said:

I thought Smith's one hit hout and one mark game was pivotal.

Have you watched Richmond play any time in the last 18 months. Nankervis gets destroyed in the hit outs by opposition rucks every week, but uses his lower centre of gravity/bulk to direct where the opponent can hit the ball and then follows it up. Grigg the same. 

Westhoff who rucked against Smith had 1 hit out to advantage from his 9 hit outs. Weideman would be better at getting hit outs but not at following up the taps. Considering opposition back ups aren't getting clean hit outs on Smith I'd say there's no evidence that Weideman in the ruck would provide any advantage. 

So it comes down to which player is better up forward and I think for the sake of balance that's Smith. Hogan and Tom McDonald are already struggling to find any separation and both be involved in the game. How does adding another 195cm+ tall who doesn't offer much at ground level help that? Again, it gets back to the way Richmond win with forwards who tackle and pressure to lock the ball inside 50. Jacob Townsend is a premiership player producing similar stats to Smith.

Whilst Smith's basic stats weren't impressive the advanced stats rated his game as one of our better performers. They aren't always right but it's an indication that Smith's pressure adds more than meets the eye.

 

56 minutes ago, timbo said:

Why doesn't he wear a Brayshaw

Check the lengthy Brayshaw concussion thread from ways back Timbo.

There's been a few medicos who have posted that the helmet makes no difference to the impact on the brain.

It's more a confidence thing and I  believe Gus also promised his mum and he'd wear one.

We're screwed if Nev doesn't pull up.

*source demonland 2017-18. Everything on this site is verified as true and correct.

 

Edited June 24, 20186 yr by Brownie

2 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

Ethan he spent a slab of time in the ruck and also spent only 57% of time on the ground (probably due to head knock) and still came equal 4th in the tackle count on the night.

He also laid 3 of those inside 50.  Only bettered by Melk with 4 who had 84% game time.

Smith is 2nd (only to Clarry) in Tackle averages this season and also leads the average tackle count inside 50 this season.

We hear so much in the press, footy world and on here about forward 50 pressure so if you want forward 50 pressure Smith is the best at it for the MFC right at this moment....all while providing a chop out in the ruck!

He definitely needs to do more but with only 57% game time and giving a chop out in the ruck he had limited opportunity.  I only saw him make one mistake on the night and that was after laying a tackle just outside 50, winning the free kick, but then kicking it long to a vacant pocket (nobody) for a point when he should have gone somewhere closer to a hot zone near goal or looked for a target short.  Goody was livid and Coaches tend to remember this stuff when you are trying to break in to a team.

No not buying, Weeds before injured played a much better role and is more dangerous around goal! Also when he played we won 3 games straight! He is a must in along with Jeffy and possibly Frost!!

Gotta reward magoos form!

Lets not get too carried away with  many changes however we need the right personnel. I believe that and many would because it is obvious that one tall backman with speed and carry and can break the lines in Frost has to be given the chance now. It doesn't mean that Petty isn't ready. The 18 y o is ready to be given the chance as well. He was the carry over to the P A game. 

The Weed will replace Tim smith for mine as his 7 goals and playing in the Ruck as well was again a positive game for him.

I like to see the speed of Oskar Baker however he isn't far away and Garlett is worth the chance for speed and experience. 

I believe that Stretch has put in a period of consistent form and looks a good chance as well.

INS. Weed, stretch,    Frost or Petty.

Out Tim Smith, Joel Smith, ANB

  

37 minutes ago, SFebey said:

I’m toying with the idea of playing Jones as the small forward, thinking of my 22 which I’ll do tomorrow 

That is a tweak that probably needs to happen at some point SF if we are to rescue the season and make finals...and hopefully win a final also.  Not saying 100% game time but as a resting SF for significant parts of the game?

With the return of Viney to a central mid field role and the pushing of Gus out to a more of an on ball HF role we have now recommenced over-use of handball again, especially around the mid field contests.  Makes it easier for the opp to corral us and eventually get a turnover to their advantage.  Also prevents the ball coming inside 50 as quickly as it might if we were kicking more often.

The 3 handball happy amigos kick to handball ratio (with Viney in....Brayshaw pushed out) tells the tale....

Clarry:  0.48  Viney:  0.68  Jones:  0.73

No doubt the low kicking can be attributed to the necessity to handball under pressure and close in work but as we know there is a bit of a choice as to what players prefer.  Clarry a great example of someone who prefers to handball significantly more than kick.

Brayshaw has the highest kicking average in the team.  Kick to handball ratio......

Brayshaw:  1.27

Pretty sure Tracc likes to kick more often also.  He would be another i would be looking to get more time into through the mid field (eventually).

Part of the issue with kicking though is to be pretty efficient at hitting targets as well and on Friday we were generally woeful with most players guilty of constant wasteful bombing to the hot spot, including Gus.  We really need to start hitting up more targets around the 50 meter arc in order to get deeper entries inside 50 and a few more long set shots on goal.

The other issue is....very few of our players that run through mid field....are kicking goals at the moment and posing any danger to our opponent.  I can't think of one player in the side who worries the scoreboard from around the 50 and plays through the mid field.

2 hours ago, timbo said:

Nope. Everyone is content with finals. Nope. Nope.com.

low expectations is why we are where we are. It's why jones needs looking at. And petracca. And Lewis. And Vince. And others

I suggest you go and learn some more “new stuff’ & then post some meaningful insightful relevant”stuff” !!

36 minutes ago, picket fence said:

No not buying, Weeds before injured played a much better role and is more dangerous around goal! Also when he played we won 3 games straight! He is a must in along with Jeffy and possibly Frost!!

Gotta reward magoos form!

I agree he needs rewarding PF but he will not have anywhere near the impact on the scoreboard at AFL level (vs form at Casey in this area....7 goals) if he is also playing a chop out role in the ruck.   Just as Smith wouldn't.  Just as Hogan wouldn't if he were asked.

AFL is a completely different level to VFL as you know, especially when effort / time is taken towards carrying out a relief ruck role which he does little, if any of, at Casey.  Hence the 7 goal haul.

When you say Weids is more dangerous around goal the stats suggest otherwise with Smith leading goal averages and score involvements vs Weids.

My worry is i'm not even sure we need 3 talls to be honest.  No matter what the combo.....Weids, Hogan, T-Mac..... Smith, Hogan, T-Mac etc.

IMHO it makes us too easy to defend and rebound against when the ball hits the ground, clogs up the ability of each to mark and impact (see Friday where you often saw Hogan/Smith or T-Mac / Hogan competing for the same ball) and a few smaller forwards might be able to impact the scoreboard more often off the crumbs....rather than say just one.  Would it be better to have just 2 key forwards and include Spargo AND Jeffy for example?

5 hours ago, rjay said:

the [censored]breast for tat arguments.

And that's one of the more amusing auto-censor moments I've seen.

2 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Have you watched Richmond play any time in the last 18 months. Nankervis gets destroyed in the hit outs by opposition rucks every week, but uses his lower centre of gravity/bulk to direct where the opponent can hit the ball and then follows it up. Grigg the same. 

Westhoff who rucked against Smith had 1 hit out to advantage from his 9 hit outs. Weideman would be better at getting hit outs but not at following up the taps. Considering opposition back ups aren't getting clean hit outs on Smith I'd say there's no evidence that Weideman in the ruck would provide any advantage. 

So it comes down to which player is better up forward and I think for the sake of balance that's Smith. Hogan and Tom McDonald are already struggling to find any separation and both be involved in the game. How does adding another 195cm+ tall who doesn't offer much at ground level help that? Again, it gets back to the way Richmond win with forwards who tackle and pressure to lock the ball inside 50. Jacob Townsend is a premiership player producing similar stats to Smith.

Whilst Smith's basic stats weren't impressive the advanced stats rated his game as one of our better performers. They aren't always right but it's an indication that Smith's pressure adds more than meets the eye.

 

Weideman is more athletic and a smarter user of the footy.  He's a better hand-baller.  He's a better contested mark.  He's smarter.

Trying to argue that Smith is good at negating a fill in ruck is mind-bogglingly silly. 

I don't give a [censored] about Smith's "pressure".  He's not in the side for "pressure".  That's a component for a tall, but not their primary action.

Let's reconvene after Weideman replaces Smith on the weekend.  If Smith stays you're right and I'm an idiot.  Won't be happening.

Edited June 24, 20186 yr by ProDee

In. Weid Garlett Petty

Out. Smith Smith Dom

5 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Weideman is more athletic and a smarter user of the footy.  He's a better hand-baller.  He's a better contested mark.  He's smarter.

Trying to argue that Smith is good at negating a fill in ruck is mind-bogglingly silly. 

I don't give a [censored] about Smith's "pressure".  He's not in the side for "pressure".  That's a component for a tall, but not their primary action.

Let's reconvene after Weideman replaces Smith on the weekend.  If Smith stays you're right and I'm an idiot.  Won't be happening.

More athletic? Nope. He's slower, less agile and not as fit. Better handballer sure, I like Sam's hands on both sides of the body. Better contested mark - well he averages 1 a game compared to Smith's 0.8. Smarter, that's hard to qualify - smarter handballer but that's about it.

I've just given you stats to show Smith is good at negating a ruck. Either Smith or Weideman will play minutes in the ruck and their ability to win, lose or negate the hit outs and then follow up is an important part of that role.

How many talls do we need? We have Hogan, Tommy Mc as well as Melksham and Petracca who should all be good strong in the air one on one. None of those guys are good pressure players. Tracc is when he's on but he often isn't. Surely you agree forward pressure is a vital part of the modern game? Surely! So if it's not coming from Hogan, Tommy, Weeds, Melksham or Petracca who is doing it?? Hannan and ANB chasing their tails off trying to lay tackles and getting little help.

Weideman probably will replace Smith, his VFL form over the last fortnight has been very impressive, but in a couple of weeks he'll get dropped because the 3 talls aren't getting in the game and the forward pressure is lacking.

6 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

More athletic? Nope. He's slower, less agile and not as fit. Better handballer sure, I like Sam's hands on both sides of the body. Better contested mark - well he averages 1 a game compared to Smith's 0.8. Smarter, that's hard to qualify - smarter handballer but that's about it.

I've just given you stats to show Smith is good at negating a ruck. Either Smith or Weideman will play minutes in the ruck and their ability to win, lose or negate the hit outs and then follow up is an important part of that role.

How many talls do we need? We have Hogan, Tommy Mc as well as Melksham and Petracca who should all be good strong in the air one on one. None of those guys are good pressure players. Tracc is when he's on but he often isn't. Surely you agree forward pressure is a vital part of the modern game? Surely! So if it's not coming from Hogan, Tommy, Weeds, Melksham or Petracca who is doing it?? Hannan and ANB chasing their tails off trying to lay tackles and getting little help.

Weideman probably will replace Smith, his VFL form over the last fortnight has been very impressive, but in a couple of weeks he'll get dropped because the 3 talls aren't getting in the game and the forward pressure is lacking.

A few things here...

For a start the best form of forward pressure is hitting the scoreboard and we didn't convert enough of our inside 50's on Friday.

Athletic, agile or whatever you like to call it, I think Weid has more composure at AFL level & better football smarts than Smith and that's really key to having the 3 talls work forward. I know you don't like it but there is no reason it can't work well.

You are underselling the efforts of Hogan (5 tackles), Trac (4) & Melk (4) and the FD in addressing the previous lack of tackling pressure. Weid is also not afraid to lay a good tackle.

I like how Smith has been able to compete in the ruck, it's a great effort for someone who has never really played the position. I think that Pedders has dropped off in this part of the game this season & it's part the reason he is at Casey. Pedders was a bit stiff coming up against Cox the other week though & I wonder how Smith would have handled him.

Weid is the better ruck option to my mind & is smarter around the ball. The sooner we can settle him into the team the better we will be.

19 hours ago, Bravo Oscar, Bravo said:

Just a thought, but does anyone else think Bugg deserves another chance??

Actually no. Not ever again. He is the biggest momentum killer in our team. People are bemoaning ANB but Bugg is a similar player with even worse disposal.

16 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Er...well let's think, the role he was given by Goodwin

 

Saty, you can’t make a definitive statement like “Tyson played his role” and then hide behind a cop out like the above.

Either you know the role Tyson was given (which probably means you were in the coaches box) and can therefore offer a more objective judgement than most of us who thought Tyson was poor. Or you actually don’t have any basis to back up your original comment.

I thought Tyson was below standard and we went in too heavy with inside mids. He’d be one of my first outs.

Bring in Garlett and if he's on fine, if he's not you risk playing one short. This is a game we should/must win. My warning meter is going crazy.