Just now, Clint Bizkit said:

You need the pick next to each player for context.

Did he even draft those players in 2013?

Yes he did.

Agree you could go delve into a study much more deeply but prima facie there's a pretty strong case he hasn't hit enough targets over a six year period. We field at least 4 NQR types even when we field our strongest side, up to 10 when we are injury depleted. He hasn't recruited well beyond R1.

OP should change his name to "Melbourne Basher" - that's all he ever does.

4 minutes ago, demonstone said:

OP should change his name to "Melbourne Basher" - that's all he ever does.

I love the club. I want it to improve.

Analysing, scrutinising and discussing someone’s job performance does not equal ‘bashing’. 

Stop being lazy, take the cheer squad goggles off and refute an argument with logic if you disagree with it. 

Edited June 4, 20195 yr by Matsuo Basho

22 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Is it up to scratch?

I would argue that a significant reason why the list lacks depth is that Taylor has a poor strike rate beyond round one of the draft. We laud him for the Oliver recruitment, Brayshaw, Salem and so on and rightly so, but your top scout is paid to find a quotient of diamonds in the rough as well. Nowhere near good enough in this area for mine. 

You be the judge ...

2013 - Kennedy-Harris, Clisby, Hunt, Harmes, Georgiou

2014 - Neal-Bullen, Stretch, O.Macdonald, Vandenberg, M.White

2015 -  M.King, Hulett, Wagner, Michie, J.Smith

2016 - Hannan, Johnstone, Filipovic, T.Smith, Keilty

2017 - Spargo, Fritsch, Petty, Baker

2018 - Sparrow, Jordon, Neitschke, Hore, Bedford, Chandler

 

Well you’ve included 2018 of which its not possible to form a conclusive view on those players yet nor expect them necessarily  to immediately impact at AFL level.  Jordon for example looks like an exciting player but is probably 12 months away.  

There are some pretty good players in that list and not many complete miscues if you don’t include some of the rookie draft picks.  Luck hasnt helped either - Vandenberg and Joel smith were set for breakout years this season before injury interceded.

All the same its perverse to blame depth when you have 15 injuries - very few clubs could stay at the same level.  Also if you trade one of your best players and are yet to receive any of the benefits due to injury of may, kk and sparrow being a young player.

Nah, think I'll just add you to the other nuffies on my 'ignore' list.  There's a few of you.  (Replying to Basher)

Edited June 4, 20195 yr by demonstone
clarity

22 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Is it up to scratch?

I would argue that a significant reason why the list lacks depth is that Taylor has a poor strike rate beyond round one of the draft. We laud him for the Oliver recruitment, Brayshaw, Salem and so on and rightly so, but your top scout is paid to find a quotient of diamonds in the rough as well. Nowhere near good enough in this area for mine. 

You be the judge ...

2013 - Kennedy-Harris, Clisby, Hunt, Harmes, Georgiou

2014 - Neal-Bullen, Stretch, O.Macdonald, Vandenberg, M.White

2015 -  M.King, Hulett, Wagner, Michie, J.Smith

2016 - Hannan, Johnstone, Filipovic, T.Smith, Keilty

2017 - Spargo, Fritsch, Petty, Baker

2018 - Sparrow, Jordon, Neitschke, Hore, Bedford, Chandler

There are good reasons that the 8 in bold did not make it.  Thish means 22 of the 30 selected are still on our  list so he has a pretty good batting average.

And of the 16 on the list last year, 8 played in the finals.  Again, a very good batting average.

Anyway a bit early to judge the 2018 crop but 2017 selections are looking like a 100% strike rate!

I get that you are trolling but a closer look at the selections show you are barking up the wrong tree.

26 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Is it up to scratch?

I would argue that a significant reason why the list lacks depth is that Taylor has a poor strike rate beyond round one of the draft. We laud him for the Oliver recruitment, Brayshaw, Salem and so on and rightly so, but your top scout is paid to find a quotient of diamonds in the rough as well. Nowhere near good enough in this area for mine. 

You be the judge ...

2013 - Salem Kennedy-Harris, Clisby, Hunt, Harmes, Georgiou

2014 - Petracca Brayshaw Lever Neal-Bullen, Stretch, O.Macdonald, Vandenberg, M.White

2015 - Oliver Weideman M.King, Hulett, Wagner, Michie, J.Smith

2016 - Hannan, Johnstone, Filipovic, T.Smith, Keilty

2017 - Spargo, Fritsch, Petty, Baker

2018 - Sparrow, Jordon, Neitschke, Hore, Bedford, Chandler

 

I have bolded these players as guys who  last played in the preliminary final. Forget 2018, but out of that list 12/26 players drafted in those years were a game off playing in the grand final. Thats already a huge tick.

You also said your top scout is paid to find diamond in the rough type players.

Harmes, Hunt, Vandenberg, Joel Smith, Tim Smith, Josh Wagner, Mitch Hannan, Oskar Baker and Marty Hore.

All those names have already made significant impact or have shown that they have bright futures ahead of them. All taken late in the draft or rookie listed. You could say that besides Vandenberg Josh Wagner and Tim Smith (28 already) most of those players could  go on to play 100 to 150 games for Melbourne. That's another significant tick in my eyes.

Taylor is doing a fine job.

Our drafting since pick 4, 2015 ND has been unquestionably poor. Is Taylor selecting poorly, or is he being hamstrung by the demands of the coach and/or football manager?

My bigger concern than the actual players drafted is the types of players we are drafting. We have so many (1) undersized key position players and (2) flanker / utility types, and a desperate shortage of genuine midfielders and key forwards. 

To be taking slow midgets in the second round of the draft is inexcusable. The first two rounds should be dedicated to adding midfielders and key position players. Niche picks can wait.

6 minutes ago, goodoil said:

Well you’ve included 2018 of which its not possible to form a conclusive view on those players yet nor expect them necessarily  to immediately impact at AFL level.  Jordon for example looks like an exciting player but is probably 12 months away.  

There are some pretty good players in that list and not many complete miscues if you don’t include some of the rookie draft picks.  Luck hasnt helped either - Vandenberg and Joel smith were set for breakout years this season before injury interceded.

All the same its perverse to blame depth when you have 15 injuries - very few clubs could stay at the same level.  Also if you trade one of your best players and are yet to receive any of the benefits due to injury of may, kk and sparrow being a young player.

All clubs go through tough injury trots. The better ones sustain performance in large part for having recruited and drafted solid depth talent through the list. Our current ladder position and percentage indicates we have failed in this area. 

There are some decent players in that list sure. But not enough. Too many misfires across the half decade.

Edited June 4, 20195 yr by Matsuo Basho

his strike rate of players drafted late in the prelim final last year suggests he's doing okay, plus others such as fritsch and hunt weren't around

already with last year's draft crop i think everyone agrees that hore is in our best 22

harmes is probably our second best mid for the year

taylor is not the problem

43 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

Is his record post-first-round up to scratch?

I would argue that a significant reason why the list lacks depth is that Taylor has a poor strike rate beyond round one of the draft. We laud him for the Oliver recruitment, Brayshaw, Salem and so on and rightly so, but your top scout is paid to find a quotient of diamonds in the rough as well. Nowhere near good enough in this area for mine. 

You be the judge ...

2013 - Kennedy-Harris, Clisby, Hunt, Harmes, Georgiou

2014 - Neal-Bullen, Stretch, O.Macdonald, Vandenberg, M.White

2015 -  M.King, Hulett, Wagner, Michie, J.Smith

2016 - Hannan, Johnstone, Filipovic, T.Smith, Keilty

2017 - Spargo, Fritsch, Petty, Baker

2018 - Sparrow, Jordon, Neitschke, Hore, Bedford, Chandler

 

Compared to what?  It's a facile analysis unless you compare his record to other recruiters.

A good measure is those players who reach 50 and 100 games.

As at 2017 ...one out of three players reach 50 games and one out of 6 reach 100 AFL games.

Looking at the table other than 2015 he seems to be batting the league average.

2 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

Compared to what?  It's a facile analysis unless you compare his record to other recruiters.

Richmond - 

13 - lennon, nathan gordon, sam lloyd, petterd, banfield, miles, thomas -

14 - ellis, menadue drummons butler mckenzie short castagna lambert arnot soldo

15 rioli markov broad moore chol marcon

16 bolton graham garthwaite stengle

17 higgins c-jones balta naish miller baker

There are some good picks there but its not exactly groundbreaking recruiting from the high flying tigers in that period.

 

16 minutes ago, Matsuo Basho said:

All clubs go through tough injury trots. The better ones sustain performance in large part for having recruited and drafted solid depth talent through the list. Our current ladder position and percentage indicates we haven’t.

Our injuries to best 22 players is at least 30% higher in terms of games missed than any other side, not to mention most of our midfield which have played every game started slow as the result of uninterrupted preseasons.

The past two weeks we have been the dominant team against top sides despite our injuries and while we lost we are playing in a way that makes us a huge chance against anyone. While our depth is being tested we are holding together well after a very poor start in the first 5-7 rounds.

What will help us from here is some continuity amoung our 22 and getting some of our key defenders back. 

Edited June 4, 20195 yr by chookrat

To give a balanced view the post first round selections should include trade-ins as those picks would otherwise be available for the draft. 

Vince, Hibberd, Melksham, Frost were mid to late 20 picks and will all play 100 games for the dees.  Their is a B&F winner, an AA and 4 prelim final players.  Not too shabby don't you think?  And the very late picks (gifts) of Garlett, Lewis and Preuss. 

There were some poor trades like Lumumba.  I don't include Dawes as a poor trade as he gave his all to the dees.   

On balance Taylor has an trade-in strike is excellent!

7 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

To give a balanced view the post first round selections should include trade-ins as those picks would otherwise be available for the draft. 

Vince, Hibberd, Melksham, Frost were mid to late 20 picks and will all play 100 games for the dees.  Their is a B&F winner, an AA and 4 prelim final players.  Not too shabby don't you think?  And the very late picks (gifts) of Garlett, Lewis and Preuss. 

There were some poor trades like Lumumba.  I don't include Dawes as a poor trade as he gave his all to the dees.   

On balance Taylor has an trade-in strike is excellent!

Taylor wasn't even around when the Dawes trade happaned.

I'm disappointed with a couple of things:

1.His selection of talls.

King, Hulett and Filipovic all gone, none of them had the bodies, skill or athleticism for AFL footy.

Keilty - we like him around here but he's slow and lumbering.

Oscar waddles along. Petty has an awkward running style and not a lot of pace. And Weid isn't exactly lighting it up.

Every list should have a few spots for young athletic big guys who can add muscle and develop skills. We don't really have anyone who fits that criteria outside of Austin Bradtke.

2. The lack of upside with several recruits.

Where's the next Harmes or even Hunt coming from? Baker might be one but he needs to make huge leaps in his endurance to be an AFL midfielder, otherwise he's a half forward with some pace. But in hindsight with Stretch and JKH staying for another year why did we need Corey Wagner? Spargo is such a safe pick, maybe too safe to even be a good player. What is Nietschke, a slow outside mid, only 184cms and without a smooth kick, that's not the ideal AFL recruit. DJ was a wasted pick. 

We've been looking for pace and skill for a couple of years, why haven't we found a Sydney Stack or a Gryan Miers?

 

 

6 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Taylor wasn't even around when the Dawes trade happaned.

Well, that makes Taylor's strike rate even better, doesn't it?

18 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Well, that makes Taylor's strike rate even better, doesn't it?

Dawes was a Todd Viney/Mark Neeld special

44 minutes ago, goodoil said:

Richmond -

There are some good picks there but its not exactly groundbreaking recruiting from the high flying tigers in that period.

Absolutely right. The thing about Richmond's premiership was, they had a core of well-established very high quality players, and then just two 'good' drafts leading into 2017 where it wasn't so much a case of bringing in top quality, as bringing in all the necessary hard-working footsoldiers that completed the team.

Richmond's problem wasn't that they were awful and needed a total rebuild, they were merely stagnant and needed a boost, and that got it with two good drafts, but those drafts are only comparable to what we got after the first round in 2013-14, in Nibbler, Stretch, Hunt, Harmes and Vandenberg. If you add those five to an already 'just about set' list, you're laughing, even though most are a bit b-grade.

 

28 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Vince, Hibberd, Melksham, Frost were mid to late 20 picks and will all play 100 games for the dees.  Their is a B&F winner, an AA and 4 prelim final players.

On balance Taylor has an trade-in strike is excellent!

Cha-Ching. Crucial to the rebuild and terrific value for picks.

As others have noted, the only real knocks on Taylor are that we haven't had a great time finding young rucks and talls through the draft so we had to overpay a little to target them in trades, and we haven't made much use of free agency.

Lachie Whitfield 2020 = Jason Taylor Resume complete?

Taylor sucks. Why would you draft a 172cm snail dud like spargo

18 minutes ago, Elegt said:

Taylor sucks. Why would you draft a 172cm snail dud like spargo

Your posts always appear as if you have been sucking on a lemon all day long.

19 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

As others have noted, the only real knocks on Taylor are that we haven't had a great time finding young rucks and talls through the draft so we had to overpay a little to target them in trades, and we haven't made much use of free agency.

That’s a pretty big ‘knock’ to gloss over the way you’ve done. Taylor’s primary role is to bring in young talent at minimum cost through the draft, not have us overpay for players later on because of repeated misfires. You’re always going to be behind the eight ball if that’s your model.

In addition to young talls and rucks he has also failed to draft any genuine small forwards of quality in five years. Another ‘knock’.

So you want diamonds in the rough that also fill a specific positional need and address a particular team skillset limitation through a later draft pick, regardless of the quality of the draft and it's available player types in a given year; and with no benefit of hindsight to determine what the list holes are in the future years; particularly as some of your previous selections addressed existing list needs that then had the flow-on effect of highlighting resultant new ones!!!! 

 

 

Edited June 4, 20195 yr by Ungarie boy

15 minutes ago, Ungarie boy said:

So you want diamonds in the rough that also fill a specific positional need and address a particular team skillset limitation through a later draft pick, regardless of the quality of the draft and it's available player types in a given year; and with no benefit of hindsight to determine what the list holes are in the future years; particularly as some of your existing selections addressed existing list needs which had the flow-on effect of highlighting resultant new ones!!!! 

In short, yes. No-one’s saying it’s not a challenging job. This is elite level professional sport, not tiddlywinks. The club is 16th on the ladder with a list that bats about as deep as a sidewalk puddle. If you get paid the coin to find good players it’s a pretty simple equation - produce or clean out the desk! No excuses fielded or accepted.

Edited June 4, 20195 yr by Matsuo Basho