Im sorry to Jones for saying this because hes been a warrior for the club but i dont think hes the best captain. I remember watching a video of him a few years ago:

 

He seems unnatural and just plain annoying to be honest. The way he tries to motivate the players i think is more suited to a boxing gym than a footy team. When youre training to fight a one on one battle its good to be screamed at and get angry but not when youre playing a team sport. I just feel the way he goes about it is creating disharmony in the team.

Everyone keeps blaming coach after coach but maybe its not the coaches when we have the same problem through multiple coaches?

We always drop off dramatically without Viney and obviously he adds to the team with his skills but i think its a lot more than that that he offers. I think its the way he motivates the players in a slightly different way to Jones thats the biggest difference.

Obviously Jones is a great player but i dont think he should be captain. I think hes just a bit too tough and tries a bit too hard. Leadership isnt natural to him and despite the effort hes put into the captaincy hes still not natural which has a negative effect on the whole team.

Great first post, you obviously didn't watch the game today !

I don't think he is the problem, but he's part of an ongoing divide between a younger generation, and the establish "boys club" that has been around since the good ol' days of 186.

I've been calling for him to be traded dating back to 2012, and I get absolutely hounded every time I say it.

If we miss finals this year, do not be surprised if he asks for a trade to a finals contender. IMO it would be the best thing for him and club. Allow the likes of Oliver, Viney, Trac, Hogan and TMac to really step into the leadership role and guide the club.

Jones is a good player, far from great. He's not the problem, but I have been and always will be of the belief that as long as remnants of 186 remain at the club, we will continue to struggle and be pushed around. And yes, that includes the likes of Gawn. TMac and Viney are the extreme exceptions in this case.

He was useful and a stalwart during the real down years. As we're growing up as a team, he reminds me of that tenured person in an office that is always complaining, always bullying younger, new people and calling them out for the most trivial of things. It stifles growth, and stops newcomers from filtering through and taking the reigns.

A good leader empowers those around them to be their best. Jones should not be -- and isn't -- our best player. Evidently, he's also not our best captain.

Blaming him for any issues we have on-field is a massive stretch. But I do believe he's filling a hole that we desperately need more natural, empowering leaders to fit into.

And I wouldn't be surprised at all if Goodwin sees it the same way.

Edited April 24, 20187 yr by praha

Very interesting statement praha , but I'd venture to suggest that Jones would have more of an idea to the solution than Goodwin

41 minutes ago, Coldy21 said:

Im sorry to Jones for saying this because hes been a warrior for the club but i dont think hes the best captain. I remember watching a video of him a few years ago:

 

He seems unnatural and just plain annoying to be honest. The way he tries to motivate the players i think is more suited to a boxing gym than a footy team. When youre training to fight a one on one battle its good to be screamed at and get angry but not when youre playing a team sport. I just feel the way he goes about it is creating disharmony in the team.

Everyone keeps blaming coach after coach but maybe its not the coaches when we have the same problem through multiple coaches?

We always drop off dramatically without Viney and obviously he adds to the team with his skills but i think its a lot more than that that he offers. I think its the way he motivates the players in a slightly different way to Jones thats the biggest difference.

Obviously Jones is a great player but i dont think he should be captain. I think hes just a bit too tough and tries a bit too hard. Leadership isnt natural to him and despite the effort hes put into the captaincy hes still not natural which has a negative effect on the whole team.

For what is worth. I agree.

Jones is a solid B+ player. Has had to endure the toughest of era’s. I think it’s scarred him and that as much as he wants to win games and play finals and win them. He doesn’t know how. He naturally competes all the time. He doesn’t know how to motivate the rest to do that.

3 minutes ago, MudDogs Gawn Win.. someday said:

For what is worth. I agree.

Jones is a solid B+ player. Has had to endure the toughest of era’s. I think it’s scarred him and that as much as he wants to win games and play finals and win them. He doesn’t know how. He naturally competes all the time. He doesn’t know how to motivate the rest to do that.

I would like for him to no longer be in the leadership group, and to slot him into a forward pocket role if he is to stay at the club beyond 2018. 

Don’t know if he’s the problem but he’s just a b grade mid. Our A grade mid should be back in 6-8 which is helpful.

No single player is the problem. I thought that would be evident by now. Jones has got the most out of himself as a footballer. A lot of his peers that have come and gone can't say the same thing. I think he has done everything possible in his power, as an individual and a leader, to help the club succeed.

Having said that; yes, he is a limited footballer. And maybe you don't find him the most inspiring figure (I don't either, really). But to suggest he is 'the' problem, or any problem, is just unfair and misguided. It isn't his fault that the club has failed to get A quality mids onto our list.

Sadly for him, after our team's recent efforts it looks like he will be long gone by the time we do put together a real first class midfield (if ever?). 

Sort of agree with both  Druss and Pra Ha later comments.

NJ is not the problem and has certainly endured with a deserved reputation when we were less than we should be now. He however has not been able to command a consistent inspirational presence and particularly not when required.

i do not recognise that player in the club at the moment and maybe modern matrix management practice would recognise more than an individual..

I am not in the sack Goodwin camp yet but it is part of his job and he must be addressing this issue along with several other matters resulting in our current circumstance.

We have many problems but Jones aint one of them.

Let's start with a gameplan that doesn't work. Overpossess in the midfield and bomb long on the top of Garlett's head. Refusal to switch, etc.

A defence where four of our six (Jetta, Hibberd,  Lever and Hunt) are hopelessly out of form.

No outside ball carriers of quality.

A one paced midfield.

NQR's making up bottom six. Harmes, ANB, Stretch, etc.

A ruckman that dominates but doesn't benefit the team in clearances.

No defensive crumbers. Everyone must fly simultaneously.

Selection that sees Fritsch dropped but Harmes play... 

 

 

Jones as a player is from a problem.

Jones as captain is ok, he is a captain, but he is not a leader, he does not inspire nor influence a game with a few great acts when the tide is against. 

What a ridiculous thread.

Jones is a driver of training standards and a great lead by example captain.

He has a fierce loyalty to the Melbourne Football Club and is respected by opposition players and supporters alike.

Perhaps you would prefer Trengove and Grimes to captain again.

5 hours ago, Dockett 32 said:

Don’t know if he’s the problem but he’s just a b grade mid. Our A grade mid should be back in 6-8 which is helpful.

What ridiculous nonsense. At present he's still the best player in the club. Yes there are others who may prove to be better in the future but week in, week out, this bloke is either our best or amongst the best. Others, who we rate highly, still lack consistency

His high levels of fitness, standards and commitment to this basket case of a club is nothing short of astounding

Having said that, playing all of Bernie, Lewis and Jones in the same line up may prove to be problematic in time

This is absolute rubbish. Jonesy has carried the team on his back and been a warrior through many years. He is an A grade mid with little if any support. We need Viney back and more mid power like Oliver. 

So many many issues but Jonesy is NOT one of them. 

1 hour ago, Wrecker45 said:

What a ridiculous thread.

Jones is a driver of training standards and a great lead by example captain.

He has a fierce loyalty to the Melbourne Football Club and is respected by opposition players and supporters alike.

Perhaps you would prefer Trengove and Grimes to captain again.

No, but i would ask the question a new coach came in and wanted to make a change and made Viney captain.....so why did we end up with 2 captains again? Were feathers ruffled??

The game is results driven. We dont get the results with one captain we change to another. Thats no slight on Jones as a player who gives his all, thats just footy.

Christ. Nathan Jones is not the problem. Ridiculous.

Having said that, I do think his days as leader are numbered. He lacks the ability to delegate and isn't the best communicator. He was a great captain when effort was the word of the day, but now that we need to be winning games I think a more natural leader like Viney, who can rally the troops on field, is needed. I'd imagine we'll only have one captain next season.

Nathan Jones - THE problem. I am severely annoyed and p***ed off this morning but this is simply wrong. For those who consider him THE problem need to rethink their understanding of leadership. 

We have members, finances, everything in place; but the football we play continues to have massive holes in it. Nathan Jones is NOT one of those holes. 

Just watching the sounds of the game last night with Jone's (half time) showed that he is not an inspiring leader in terms of his verbal encouragement to fellow players.  He does not take a backward step but I don't feel he inspires people like say a viney, Swartz, Lyon did.  Different people.  I slid didn't find his instructions to other players as shown ( no context) was what I see in examples from Hodge.

 

 

 

 

Cameron Ling pointed out after the game that a lot of stuff was cut from Jones' on-field audio package because the club couldn't share anything confidential from the game plan. So that video is missing a lot of stuff. Having said that, bombing long down the line is a tactic Richmond were probably fully aware of so not show how confidential that is.

For starters, that footage is from 3 years ago. I think his leadership has improved since then, though he's not a natural leader.

Jones is a good hard player who leads by example. He obviously isn't solely the problem, but he contributes to what I believe is the key thing holding us back, and that's on-field leadership from the players. The coach can only do so much from up in the box. Our problem is we don't have on-field leaders who act as on-field coaches and organise the players. When you look at leaders like Hodge, Selwood etc they are barking orders and constantly organising their teammates. They're organising at stoppages, they're directing players where to move to push/pull they defensive zone, directing when to switch the ball etc. None of our leaders (bar Lewis occasionally) do this, Viney included. Yes, they're hard players who lead by example, but when we don't have momentum they're not recognising how to stem the tide and regroup quick enough. It's the key reason we traded in Lever, who's clearly a vocal leader and organiser. I think our defense actually played well last night considering the quick ball that was coming in, and Lever was a key part in that. We need those on-field coaches around the ball, and until we get them I don't think we can improve much unfortunately.

Edited April 25, 20187 yr by Lord Travis

2 hours ago, Wadda We Sing said:

No, but i would ask the question a new coach came in and wanted to make a change and made Viney captain.....so why did we end up with 2 captains again? Were feathers ruffled??

The game is results driven. We dont get the results with one captain we change to another. Thats no slight on Jones as a player who gives his all, thats just footy.

There are 90,000 feral tiger members who are glad the tigers didn't chop Cotchin at the end of 2016. Results come with lots of varying factors but stability is one of them.

I wish Jones was our problem. If Jones was our problem, we would be winning premierships.

There is no doubt that we are devoid of leadership. It speaks volumes that our leadership group got smaller this year, and that our vice captain is an over the hill has-been who spends more time giving away free kicks and falling over, than actually leading or directing traffic. 

Viney is our best leader. He is 22. He is injured. 

The player I saw talking and directing last night was Lever, a 21 year old who has played 5 ordinary games for this club. Unbelievable. 

Gawn is in the centre of basically every play, yet he never directs traffic. I remember back in the day Jamar and Moloney and Jones would often talk in the centre square before bounces. Jamar. God help me! Yes we were crap back then, but we would dominate the clearances. We got destroyed last night in the centre bounces, and yet nobody once came in and tried to change things up, or direct traffic.

Jones is an admirable character, he is a good player, he fights hard, trains hard, leads by example and gets the best out of himself. He is probably not super savvy, or a student of the game. He is probably our captain because I don't think there is anyone remotely better right now. But he is not our problem. At the end of the day, he is not making positional moves, he is not setting tactics, he is not selecting the teams. He absolutely thrived under every coach we have ever had, mother-effing Neeld included! He can follow instructions and do the team thing. Others around him clearly cannot. 

28 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

There are 90,000 feral tiger members who are glad the tigers didn't chop Cotchin at the end of 2016. Results come with lots of varying factors but stability is one of them.

We already have another captain, Viney. Just make the change. Im not talking about letting Jones go......or chopping him?....anyway, i agree its not the total problem.

I think Nate was the captain we needed at the time he was appointed.

For mine, from the period of 2011 through 2013, we appointed leaders on the basis of speaking well or whether they were 'part of the future going forward'. Getting the job done on the pitch and seniority in the group sometimes felt like an after thought.

So when Nate was appointed captain in 2014, it was a refreshing change. Finally football results mattered rather than some pie in the sky metric or marketing considerations.

And let's be brutally honest, he was the best we had. It was a case of playing the hand you have rather than the one you want.

That being said, it doesn't come naturally to Nate and probably never will. Leadership is something he has to work on to be effective (and he can be serviceable). When Selwood sledged him in 2015 as the worst captain in the AFL, it was clearly a stretch but it touched on a truth that he has had to will himself into being a decent captain.

Hence, if Viney can get himself right physically, he should take over from next year as sole captain. The heartbeat of the team should resemble him from now on.

A good example of why comes from the same Geelong game in 2015. I won't say the treatment Jack handed out to Selwood that day was a square up for what happened to Nate but he came off three times with a blood nose during that game. Jack's immortal send off greeting?

'Why do you keep bleeding? What's wrong with you?'

 

Edited April 25, 20187 yr by Colin B. Flaubert