Post Match Discussion - Round 5

[Wiseblood 24,637]

3 minutes ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

A great balanced post. Aside from skill execution we were well in the game until the last with the team touted to be the best around. The last was a major disappointment but the wrist slashing is over the top. We are not as good as pundits predicted so far this year. Nor were Richmond in 2017 but they made some tough decisions at selection and in style and got momentum in the back half with a run of no injuries. 

Our current state with our lack of mature leadership and the gap with Viney and T-Mac this is not surprising. We need to fix our forward structure (which was much better second half) including maintaining Hogan closer to goal with short grabs up the ground not vice versa. We need to trust that one person can get the ball in the stoppage and retain people on the outside for the first ball out. We need to stop having three up in a contest forward and back. We need to realise that spread is needed for 4 quarters. We need to remove most of those players who cant execute basic skills like Tyson, Harmes, Stretch, Hunt and ANB. We need to maximise our major advantage in Gawn and he needs to realise that every tap is important. We need to have a plan to get the ball out of 50 from a kick in that is not a bail out near the boundary to Hogan/Gawn.

Once again nothing is as good or as bad as it seems. Left disappointed but can see it may start to come together if we make some adjustments and that is the most frustrating bit.

 

I think the structure of our side is almost right.  We miss Viney and T Mac, and our some of our fringe players are well down on confidence, but I like how we set up tonight.  Weideman straightened us up, did some good things and wasn't disgraced when he pinch hitted in the ruck either.  Lever played his best game for the club and linked up well with O Mac, while Jetta and Hibberd looked much better as well.

Add in two of our leaders and get our confidence back up and we're back in the season.  However, that's going to take some tweaking of the game plan and some hard work over the next few rounds for that to happen.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,233]

10 minutes ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

Four marks and five tackles from a developing key forward is pretty decent.  That is what we want to see from him.  It would have been nice if he slotted that shot on goal, but it was a decent showing from him. 

Add can anyone recall and advise when he was out marked when he got to a contest. He split most of them. Needs to play until TMac returns.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 minute ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

Add can anyone recall and advise when he was out marked when he got to a contest. He split most of them. Needs to play until TMac returns.

Can we fit Hogan, T Mac and Weideman in the same side?  Or are we too top heavy, even factoring in Hogan playing further up the ground?

[david_neitz_is_my_dad 4,084]

 

[RalphiusMaximus 6,088]

Just now, Wiseblood said:

Can we fit Hogan, T Mac and Weideman in the same side?  Or are we too top heavy, even factoring in Hogan playing further up the ground?

Tommy to go back. 

[Forest Demon 4,681]

This isn't the the first time I've said this, but our game plan, and the type of players we have set the team up with isnt working.

We rarely have open options when we move the ball, as opposed to our opposition who seem to have a lottery of options.

Our "outside" players, half forward flankers etc, are guys like Harmes and ANB. Decent back up mids, but we need players in those roles to have more class.

Im not a huge Watts fan, but when we let him go, I said we better know what we are doing, as it leaves Salem as our only real top class reliable kick.

We have loaded up on contested types, but it ain't working,

[Go the Biff 3,442]

25 minutes ago, McQueen said:

Maybe the game plan bit...

There's an article written by the Storm's Christian Welch on The Players' Voice which gives some details of that camp. No learning of games plans on it

[pinkshark 950]

5 minutes ago, rufus said:

[censored] Vince Lombardi couldn't get consistent effort out of these blokes.

At some point, this club has to realise there's only a certain amount a coach can do. At every juncture for at least the last 10, when there's been times on the field where things can either go ok, badly or go terribly, they've gone terribly. And the lack of care factor apparent on field is as frustrating as it is mystifying. 

Simon Goodwin has the worst job in Australian sport. Try putting together a strategic game plan for a group of professional sportspeople who don't want to do the hard work. Everyone knows how soft this club is. Every laughs at this club. Carlton will be licking their lips for when they get a chance to have a piece of us. You know what we're going to do when we play them don't you??

BS.  Disagree with everything you say.

[Frosty Demon 153]

5 minutes ago, Hogan2014 said:

Melksham kicked 4 goals ... but don’t disagree there are some big issues with the game plan .. Leak too many goals too quickly to be s finals contender .. very concerned about Goodwin as were have gone backwards in our defence since Roos... 

Yeah he got 4 tonight finally did something but has done nothing up until now. Goodwin has his favourites and this destroys moral at any club and thats whats happening with us. We are rudderless and he is apparently our leader? Over to you Simon.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,233]

2 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Can we fit Hogan, T Mac and Weideman in the same side?  Or are we too top heavy, even factoring in Hogan playing further up the ground?

No. Hogan needs to realise he is not a midfielder and go and spend some time in 50 and kick some goals. 

[Wrecker45 3,378]

There are a lot of buzz words in football. About 10 years ago it was switching play. For some reason we kick down the line every time and never switch. 

I watched Casey last Sunday and they do the same.

it is not difficult to switch occasionally and keep them guessing.

it’s not a cutting edge new game plan to switch it but neither is kicking down the line every fucken time

Edited April 24, 2018 by Wrecker45

[titan_uranus 25,043]

It was a 14 point margin 10 early in the fourth quarter. We ran out of puff one down on the bench and the best side in the comp got a run of goals on, but the issue isn't the last 15 minutes.

The issue is that we have now played 5 straight games with the same problems each week.

For the first 16 minutes of the third quarter, Richmond had one possession in their forward half. One. Inside 50s were 12-1. But we'd only kicked 2 goals when we should have kicked 5. We lifted our effort for those 16 minutes, we dominated general play, but we continue to stuff it up inside 50.

Same problem in Q1 - the first 10 minutes was predominantly played in our forward half but we kicked 1.6 or something and didn't put any scoreboard pressure on.

A few things are apparent. The first is that opposition sides know how to set up against us and it's the same every week - an extra defender behind the play. I'm embarrassed that we can't work out what to do to get around this tactic. Literally every side has used this against us to their advantage.

What is also apparent is we have far too many NQR players who aren't good enough: ANB, Wagner, Stretch, Harmes, Vince, Hunt, Tyson. Our reliance on NQR players leads to too many going up and none staying down, momentum-killing turnovers, selfishness creeping into the better players (Gawn a prime example), wasted inside 50s.

Too much is being left to too few. Oliver and Petracca are expected to be leading the club but they have no support. Gawn is dominating the ruck but we can't buy a clearance. 

There were positives: the back 6 was markedly better this week. Eventually the toll of our awful forward line/midfield was too much, but for much of the game our backline held its own. OMac and Lever are improving, Lever's best game. Hibberd and Jetta also played much better.

But if the coaches can't work out how to get the side to score when the opposition drops an extra behind the ball, we're not going to get close to the finals. It's simply not good enough.

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

11 minutes ago, buck_nekkid said:

What game were you watching?  Weids took some good marks, laid a great tackle, brought the ball to ground and executed some nice field kicking.  Pathetic comment.

Must not have noticed them. Didn't have much of an impact though and would still question why we would pick him above Pedo. 

[Deespicable 2,886]

Exposed for clearance ability and exposed for outside run by Richmond's bevy of small hard-running forwards. 

It's the first game I've seen this year where we've really missed Viney's influence and hardness around the contest and with Oliver and Petracca unable to win clean clearances it was good night Dees because our advantage was in the ruck and we again got no benefit from it and frustratingly for Gawny, the umps rarely look after him like they used to with Jimmy.

Apart from Viney, the one player we really miss is an outside run type - no wonder there are already rumours that we are after Gaff for next season. Stretch came in to try and play that role tonight and sadly he wasn't able to get clean ball - it was slippery and Richmond are the night experts - they pick hardworking, quick players to go with their handful of genuine stars and it's working.

It's easy to say in hindsight that in those conditions the last player you want on the field is Jeffy, but his no-show tonight makes it tricky for next week because Etihad will clearly suit him better and he is the first player that should be dropped on tonight's game. 

You could also easily make a case for rejigging our midfield set up - getting Vince back in there for instance - but Essendon isn't noted for their hardball players - it is more of an outside run team.

Despite the loss there were plenty of positives IMO.

Hibberd returned to his 2017 form and his courageous fly back into Riewoldt was unbelievable.

Hoges showed that he can kick more than 50m on at least two occasions (this has been my main criticism of him) and his second half was brilliant. 

Lever was impressive, in fact most of our defenders were. It was only in the last term that under siege, the damwall broke. OMac second term was phenomenal and Wagner was great in first half before losing his way a little. Hunt's rabid attack on players was great, although his disposal again let him down. Jetta did a great job on a resting Dusty for much of the night and was another worthy of a pass mark. But he must play again next week.    

What we learnt tonight is that we are a fair way off the pace of the Tigers and probably a couple of other teams. The pessimists will say we won't make the finals, but there's very little difference between teams 4 and 13 - we just have to bring our best to the table regularly enough and ultimately the return of Jack Viney in Round 8 (hopefully) will determine how far we go.

 

[BrisbaneDemon 1,572]

I had great hope for Tonight, I actually thought if we turned up we would win.

Our defensive structure is nonexistent at the moment, we’re playing such a high press that is too easily beaten, we need to throw some serious cash at a highly rated defensive coach, look what Leppa as some for the Tigers.

Also what has happened to all of dash and exciting football that we played last year, we’re so vanilla this year it’s not enjoyable watching us play, we kick long down the line to an out numbered person. We aren’t running two ways and we aren’t playing for each other.

i agree with a lot of people here that we’re not destined for finals, Gawn really needs to start sending it down the throats of our midfield, he hits it to space and the opposition grab it and off they go.

at round 5 I’m not enjoying watching us play, the bomb it long to a contest it Mark Neeld esk.  

[McQueen 17,867]

3 minutes ago, Go the Biff said:

There's an article written by the Storm's Christian Welch on The Players' Voice which gives some details of that camp. No learning of games plans on it

I was being facetious, biff.

A better game plan being developed in 2 days... you know... funny??

Ah, whatever.

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

7 minutes ago, rufus said:

[censored] Vince Lombardi couldn't get consistent effort out of these blokes.

At some point, this club has to realise there's only a certain amount a coach can do. At every juncture for at least the last 10, when there's been times on the field where things can either go ok, badly or go terribly, they've gone terribly. And the lack of care factor apparent on field is as frustrating as it is mystifying. 

Simon Goodwin has the worst job in Australian sport. Try putting together a strategic game plan for a group of professional sportspeople who don't want to do the hard work. Everyone knows how soft this club is. Every laughs at this club. Carlton will be licking their lips for when they get a chance to have a piece of us. You know what we're going to do when we play them don't you??

I think the coachs number 1 job is to get the players to play for him. Whilst i tend to agree that Melbourne players can do it to just about any coach, we need to find one that doesnt let them.

[ignition. 1,466]

The biggest issue is the game plan!

I feel like a broken record saying it.

I find it hard to judge the players when clearly they've been told to run together in a wave.

Yes, they seem to win a lot of the contest. But everything is rushed. They bang it on the boot inside 50, they handball to a teammate in danger. Then when it's lost the opposition gets out far too easily because they were all in or around that wave. It is just so incredibly inefficient. The inefficiency is the cause of the fade outs. If it was one of two game plans fine, I wouldn't see an issue running with it for half a quartet at a time. But it's not. There no plan B. There's no spread. There's no hitting up the short chip or mid-range kicks. In fact they're very little kicking to a lead up man (because there was no spread in the first place).

Yes we got out classed, but it was only because of a [censored] poor game plan. I'm sick of it. The coaching staff need to improve "their" game first and foremost!

[BrisbaneDemon 1,572]

I am amazed at the amount of times 4 demons fly to spoil the ball.......

[billyblanks29 184]

Last year when we didn't rush it forward and over possess every peanut said we need to kick it more. 

Tonight shows why that isn't true. We need to go back to a high possession/high handball game plan than a quick kick it forward one. 

We don't have contested marking players so it doesn't work. 

Goodwin will take a few years to learn but most here have no patience.

Edited April 24, 2018 by billyblanks29

[Adam The God 30,411]

I think we're playing a game style (Richmond aping) that is not sustainable with our list.

It requires pace and that's the major deficiency in our squad.

All you do is short chip to draw out our press and then move the ball quickly over it. We must be the easiest team to coach against. It's under 14s stuff.

We've gone backwards because our defensive set up is too easily countered by the above and our list isn't quick enough to play the offensive side of the game style.

The fact we thought we'd try the really aggressive press (with our lack of pace) tonight against Richmond (packed full with pace) beggars belief and suggests we're not going to be tweaking the game style we've worked on all summer.

I think we might be in for a bit more pain this year. Richmond are well coached and a decent side, but we're so low on confidence now - that was a massive factor tonight. We were rarely clean and they were almost always clean.

I only hope we can capitalise on Essendon's shorter break next week on a fast Etihad deck and get some momentum going back the other way.

In the meantime, I'd be dropping Vince. He's finished. He was at the end last year and shouldn't have had his contract renewed.

The body language from our supposed leaders was very poor too. Gawn with his head down after they got 4 goals ahead. Jones gave that goal up to Cotchin with a soft handball. Vince's lazy handball in the last quarter. These are all little cues that show the rest of the side where the bar is set. And it's pretty low.

Oliver, Jesse, Gawn, Hibberd and Lever were great though. Melksham at least found the goals this week, but as fir the rest of the team, there were nowhere near enough other contributors.

A thoroughly disappointing night that does not bode well for our immediate future.

[Forest Demon 4,681]

Anyone who thinks effort was the problem tonight is missing the point.

The game plan, and make up of players on the list, and in the 22, is broken and unsustainable.

Goodwin needs to re-evaluate the way we play, and come the end of the year, we desperately need to recruit some outside run and class, because our list is devoid of it.

[FarNorthernD 5,861]

1 minute ago, BrisbaneDemon said:

I am amazed at the amount of times 4 demons fly to spoil the ball.......

I’m amazed you’re amazed. It’s been happening since 2006(?)

[Elegt 872]

21 minutes ago, leucopogon said:

For a start, Fritsch is a lock for the rest of the season, the only one who can regularly hit targets by foot. Drop Harmes and Stretch and Tyson. So many passengers this week, Hannan will be in for sure, who else? JKH? Spargo? Maynard? Baker? It's good old deck chairs on the Titanic yet again.

gift them games then delist if they can't perform!  I mean they can't possibly be worse than the guys we've got in now 

[titan_uranus 25,043]

1 minute ago, A F said:

I think we're playing a game style (Richmond aping) that is not sustainable with our list.

It requires pace and that's the major deficiency in our squad.

All you do is short chip to draw out our press and then move the ball quickly over it. We must be the easiest team to coach against. It's under 14s stuff.

We've gone backwards because our defensive set up is too easily countered by the above and our list isn't quick enough to play the offensive side of the game style.

The fact we thought we'd try the really aggressive press (with our lack of pace) tonight against Richmond (packed full with pace) beggars belief and suggests we're not going to be tweaking the game style we've worked on all summer.

I think we might be in for a bit more pain this year. Richmond are well coached and a decent side, but we're so low on confidence now - that was a massive factor tonight. We were rarely clean and they were almost always clean.

I only hope we can capitalise on Essendon's shorter break next week on a fast Etihad deck and get some momentum going back the other way.

In the meantime, I'd be dropping Vince. He's finished. He was at the end last year and shouldn't have had his contract renewed.

The body language from our supposed leaders was very poor too. Gawn with his head down after they got 4 goals ahead. Jones gave that goal up to Cotchin with a soft handball. Vince's lazy handball in the last quarter. These are all little cues that show the rest of the side where the bar is set. And it's pretty low.

Oliver, Jesse, Gawn, Hibberd and Lever were great though. Melksham at least found the goals this week, but as fir the rest of the team, there were nowhere near enough other contributors.

A thoroughly disappointing night that does not bode well for our immediate future.

Whilst I agree that the way we play is a problem, I don't think the problem tonight was defensive. For three quarters our press kept us in the game because of our effort.

The problem was we weren't scoring, so every time they scored it hurt more than it should have.

We should have been leading in the middle of the third, we'd been absolutely dominant. But because we don't convert momentum/dominance into scores, it all falls apart when the opposition gets on top (which will happen vs sides like Richmond, Hawthorn and Geelong).