12 minutes ago, binman said:

Added strength is the key i reckon. At the moment he can't match the big boys for strengthen and gets pushed off the ball far too easily. A couple more years and two more preseasons and he'll improve this big time

Love your confidence binman. Not so sure I share it.

15 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

That's what worries me most about him faulty.

He just doesn't get to the contest often enough. I'm not sure how much of that can be trained into him - he seems to lack instinct.

I think he generally gets to the contest ok, but lacks the strength across the hips and body to impose himself upon it. Gets pushed out too easily. At 22 hears of age, that should improve.

Similarly, he runs under the contest quite often, that's a timing issue which can also be worked on.

I think there's a lot to like about Sam and a lot to work on to get him to where he should be at.

12 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

I think he generally gets to the contest ok, but lacks the strength across the hips and body to impose himself upon it. Gets pushed out too easily. At 22 hears of age, that should improve.

Similarly, he runs under the contest quite often, that's a timing issue which can also be worked on.

I think there's a lot to like about Sam and a lot to work on to get him to where he should be at.

Agreed. His kicking action is perfect, for a young key forward that’s also shown a contested mark side to his game I say we’re in the box seat for quality forward for years to come. He’s still a kid. His yips will fade. With more games he’ll read the ball better and get to more contests. 

Edited July 13, 20195 yr by Smokey

20 minutes ago, Smokey said:

Agreed. His kicking action is perfect, for a young key forward that’s also shown a contested mark side to his game I say we’re in the box seat for quality forward for years to come. He’s still a kid. His yips will fade. With more games he’ll read the ball better and get to more contests. 

He will get stronger & be what Kennedy is 4 West Coast a reliable key position player.

He has not had a great year but I would be reticent to dismiss a very young key forward who has played a couple of very good finals games.

Has shown that he has the talent and the mettle.

Maybe he has just teased us and will end up not making it.. but history has shown us plenty of key forwards who have taken a similar trajectory.

This is not our season, so if you were going to suffer a year of the blues this is the one.  He can return to form when we are contending again. (FMD is that optimism?)

 

On 7/8/2019 at 8:15 AM, poita said:

Weideman's big problem is that he doesn't consistently do the basics well, which means that he feels the need to compensate by doing something spectacular.

Most of us would be delighted if he could give us two lead-mark-goal plays a game, coupled with some decent defensive work.

But when he is dropping relatively simple marks in front of his eyes, or spraying set shots, I wonder if he will ever consistently operate at the required level of intensity.

Is their any detail re his calf injury - torn or tightness? 

I would be interested in seeing how many here, who want to get rid of Weid, would take Tom Hawkins? Tomahawk played about 5 very good games in his first 100, in a very good team, and was a man mountain to start with.

Weid has played 30 odd games, between injuries, in a team that bombs the ball in to the fwd50 and refuse to lower their eyes and hit a leading fwd. ??‍♂️ We improve our fwd entries and Weid will look better.

19 minutes ago, Males said:

I would be interested in seeing how many here, who want to get rid of Weid, would take Tom Hawkins? Tomahawk played about 5 very good games in his first 100, in a very good team, and was a man mountain to start with.

Weid has played 30 odd games, between injuries, in a team that bombs the ball in to the fwd50 and refuse to lower their eyes and hit a leading fwd. ??‍♂️ We improve our fwd entries and Weid will look better.

nah, he keeps misreading the flight.... 

just on that...

I have watched only maybe half the games this year on tv - and aside from the 4 kicks that hit a target on the chest lace out per game - and aside from the entries that are actually bombed to a pack - it amazes me how consistently the kicks are 'just' over the arms of the leading player... It feels like those kicks happen so frequently. If those targets were just 15cm lower - i assume our f50 conversion rate would be a lot better than it is... and Weid would be  doing quite well.

I'm not sure if this is purely a Melbourne FC club thing, or industry wide.

Edited July 13, 20195 yr by Engorged Onion

One player who I think is ine of the least of our worries and will be fine

On 7/7/2019 at 8:40 PM, A F said:

I'm going to write something controversial here. I actually think our delivery to our forwards for most of the year has been fine, but McDonald and Weideman et al have been unable to take strong marks.

What you've said isn't controversial at all AF ... the DE stats people will disagree and that's their right.  Numbers can often paint the wrong picture.  I prefer the eye test. 

Our midfielders can spray it but the real issue has been our dysfuntional forward line.  The lack of movement,  leading patterns,  ability to create space and marking ability is really poor. And has been all season.  Petracca is our best but it's a long gap to our 2nd best forward.

It's happened before on countless occasions at various clubs.  We ourselves once had an all-star centreline (Alves,  Wells & Flower) but couldn't win games because our forward line was hopeless in those days.  Thank heavens we didn't have the DE stats in those days otherwise all 3 star players would have been lambasted from pillar to post by the stats 'Gurus'

It's just history repeating itself ... better personnel in the forward line is the answer or a massive improvement with what we've got (which is a long-shot)

The value of a key forward stands out more so when you haven't got one.  One of them stands up (T-Mac last week) and hey presto we look a different side (until he got injured) 

Our midfield isn't the issue ... we need better forwards.

Edited July 14, 20195 yr by Macca

4 minutes ago, Macca said:

What you've said isn't controversial at all AF ... the DE stats people will disagree and that's their right.  Numbers can often paint the wrong picture.  I prefer the eye test. 

Our midfielders can spray it but the real issue has been our dysfuntional forward line.  The lack of movement,  leading patterns,  ability to create space and marking ability is really poor. And has been all season.  Peteacca is our best but it's a long gap to our 2nd best forward.

It's happened before on countless occasions at various clubs.  We ourselves once had an all-star centreline (Alves,  Wells & Flower) but couldn't win games because our forward line was hopeless in those days.  Thank heavens we didn't have the DE stats in those days otherwise all 3 star players would have been lambasted from pillar to post.

It's just history repeating itself ... better personnel in the forward line is the answer or a massive improvement with what we've got (which is a long-shot)

The value of a key forward stands out more so when you haven't got one.  One of them stands up (T-Mac last week) and hey presto we look a different side (until he got injured) 

Our midfield isn't the issue ... we need better forwards.

Correct !!!!!

You can also add shitful kicking to that.

7 minutes ago, Macca said:

Our midfield isn't the issue ... we need better forwards.

If our midfield isn't the issue, why is it Harmes, TMac and Trac are average or above average in inside 50 delivery ratings, yet Oliver, Brayshaw and Viney are among the worst in the league (with Viney being the single worst in the comp)?

Not saying the forward line is working perfectly by any stretch, but I'm staggered you think the midfield has no responsibility.

Edited July 14, 20195 yr by Lord Nev

16 minutes ago, Bitter but optimistic said:

Correct !!!!!

You can also add shitful kicking to that.

Yep BBO .... it is the worst forward line I can remember seeing since the 70's. 

It really is that bad. 

Plus,  our forwards don't play in front so what hope have the midfielders got? 

In a dramatic move we changed our forward line coach but a change of player personnel is the real answer.

Early in the season many here were blaming the backline but our forward line issues have been there since game 1. 

17 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

 

If we were to grade the output of our forwards this year only Petracca gets a pass mark.

Weideman has been poor,  T-Mac not much better,  Hannan below average,  Garlett runs past far too many contests,  Spargo not up to it,  Melksham average before injured,  Hunt up and down.

Collectively they don't play in front,  can't take a grab,  don't make position,  can't kick accurately,  don't make enough leads and there is a general lack of movement.  As a result,  we changed our forward line coach mid-season.  But Rawlings needs new personnel.

Yet the stats boffins here want to blame the DE of our midfielders?  Amazing.  Yes,  the midfielders aren't perfect and they do spray it occasionally but they aren't the issue.

Edited July 14, 20195 yr by Macca

20 minutes ago, Macca said:

If we were to grade the output of our forwards this year only Petracca gets a pass mark.

Weideman has been poor,  T-Mac not much better,  Hannan below average,  Garlett runs past far too many contests,  Spargo not up to it,  Melksham average before injured,  Hunt up and down.

Collectively they don't play in front,  can't take a grab,  don't make position,  can't kick accurately,  don't make enough leads and there is a general lack of movement.

Yet the stats boffins here want to blame the DE of our midfielders?  Amazing.  Yes,  the midfielders aren't perfect and they do spray it occasionally but they aren't the issue.

I agree the forwards have been poor, not letting them off the hook at all, and clearly bringing Rawlings back in (when he was very firm on wanting to coach his own team) is a big move. We see Weid and TMac often fly for the same ball, but I blame that more on Goodwin and his 'bring the ball to ground' philosophy which I think has resulted in our key forwards thinking a lot like our mids who crowd the ball.

I'm not a believer in disposal efficiency as a useful stat, it has no context and it has some poor conditions to it (under certain circumstances you can give the ball to the opposition and it's an 'effective disposal').

The stat that I think is relevant to us is retention per delivery inside 50. That stat basically measures if our delivery inside 50 is going to us or the opposition. The AFL average for that stat is 46%. Some of our players, including TMac, Trac and Harmes are at average or above, but our 3 prime movers in Oliver, Brayshaw (both in the low 30s) and Viney (low 20s) are a long way below average, in fact Viney is rated as the worst in the league. Source

So my argument would be, if it's purely the fault of the forward structure and the "mids aren't the issue", why is it some of our players can do well with delivering effectively inside 50, but our main 3 midfielders can't? In fact, Viney got up to double figures in marks he directly gave to Hurn and McGovern in the West Coast game. You can't blame the forwards for that.

This is why our coach continually talks about 'connection'.

So it is not really about Weideman per se ... collectively our forward line has been woeful so in a team sport,  changing 1 player in a dysfuntional unit isn't going to fix things.

I'd be more inclined to play Oliver,  Jones or 1 or 2 others forward for the remainder of the season and then do-over the forward line in the off-season.  Target a key forward from elsewhere as well as some medium sized and small forward talent.

2 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

This is why our coach continually talks about 'connection'.

Coach-speak?

Goodwin wouldn't be concerned about our midfield anywhere near as much as he would be concerned about our forward line

Collectively our forwards can't win their own ball and they often butcher the ball when they do get it.

Petracca is the outlier as he does win his own ball but is questionable in front of goal ... his kicking action needs to be reconstructed.

As for the others in the forward line ... I've outlined my reasoning in the above posts. 

I don't often blame the A-end of a problem but in this case,  the forwards are largely to blame.  They are clearly not up to it so they either improve dramatically (as a collective) or we make lots of changes (more so in the off-season)

Today's result rests with our forwards.  If they manage to fire,  we can win.  If not,  we'll probably lose.

Clearly you posters know absolutely nothing about footy. Goody told us many times that there's a "problem with connection". In order to get passed these weasel words, I went and looked up 'connection' in the dictionary (see definitions below). Having worked through this, I am much better informed. It's clear to me now what Goody means . . . "I haven't got a pissant clue so I'll talk a lot of euphemistic BS that'll make supporters eyes glaze over and impress the Club's board". God knows what the players think when they hear this cr%p. 

1. the act or state of connecting.

2. the state of being connected:the connection between cause and effect.

3. anything that connects; a connecting part; link; bond:an electrical connection.

4. association; relationship:the connection between crime and poverty; no connection with any other firm of the same name.

5. a circle of friends or associates or a member of such a circle.

6.association with or development of something observed, imagined, discussed, etc.:to make a connection between the smell of smoke and the presence of fire; I have a few thoughts in connection with your last remarks.

7. contextual relation; context, as of a word.

8. the meeting of trains, planes, etc., for transfer of passengers:There are good connections between buses in Chicago.

9. Often connections. a transfer by a passenger from one conveyance to another:to miss connections.

10. a specific vehicle, airplane, ship, etc., boarded in making connections:My connection for Hartford is the 10:58.

11. a relative, especially by marriage or distant blood relationship.

12. Slang. a person who sells drugs directly to addicts.

13.a source of supply for goods, material, etc., that is scarce, difficult, or illegal to obtain:a connection to obtain guns and ammunition for the rebels.

14. a group of persons who are connected, as by political or religious ties.

15.Usually connections. associates, relations, acquaintances, or friends, especially representing or having some influence or power:European connections; good connections in Congress.

16. a religious denomination:the Methodist connection.

17. a channel of communication:a bad telephone connection.

18. sexual intercourse.

4 minutes ago, Queanbeyan Demon said:

Clearly you posters know absolutely nothing about footy. Goody told us many times that there's a "problem with connection". In order to get passed these weasel words, I went and looked up 'connection' in the dictionary (see definitions below). Having worked through this, I am much better informed. It's clear to me now what Goody means . . . "I haven't got a pissant clue so I'll talk a lot of euphemistic BS that'll make supporters eyes glaze over and impress the Club's board". God knows what the players think when they hear this cr%p. 

1. the act or state of connecting.

2. the state of being connected:the connection between cause and effect.

3. anything that connects; a connecting part; link; bond:an electrical connection.

4. association; relationship:the connection between crime and poverty; no connection with any other firm of the same name.

5. a circle of friends or associates or a member of such a circle.

6.association with or development of something observed, imagined, discussed, etc.:to make a connection between the smell of smoke and the presence of fire; I have a few thoughts in connection with your last remarks.

7. contextual relation; context, as of a word.

8. the meeting of trains, planes, etc., for transfer of passengers:There are good connections between buses in Chicago.

9. Often connections. a transfer by a passenger from one conveyance to another:to miss connections.

10. a specific vehicle, airplane, ship, etc., boarded in making connections:My connection for Hartford is the 10:58.

11. a relative, especially by marriage or distant blood relationship.

12. Slang. a person who sells drugs directly to addicts.

13.a source of supply for goods, material, etc., that is scarce, difficult, or illegal to obtain:a connection to obtain guns and ammunition for the rebels.

14. a group of persons who are connected, as by political or religious ties.

15.Usually connections. associates, relations, acquaintances, or friends, especially representing or having some influence or power:European connections; good connections in Congress.

16. a religious denomination:the Methodist connection.

17. a channel of communication:a bad telephone connection.

18. sexual intercourse.

Language evolves @Queanbeyan Demon, that's alright isn't it? 

I'm sure he uses language that the player's get. I'm sure he talks about Drake, Fortnight and Minecraft... 

You might not relate to it, I guarantee you the players and staff do.

Edited July 14, 20195 yr by Engorged Onion

15 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

Language evolves @Queanbeyan Demon, that's alright isn't it? 

I'm sure he uses language that the player's get. I'm sure he talks about Drake, Fortnight and Minecraft... 

You might not relate to it, I guarantee you the players and staff do.

I take your point EO. It's well made. Do you think there is still room for plain language English though? For example, "James . . . FFS, please don't kick it on top of Weed's head?"

If we were to look at our midfielders as a collective then you'd see that the output is a bit down on last year.  But the fall hasn't been off the scale like it has been with our collective forwards.

Gawn is not quite as dominant,  Oliver the same,  Harmes good now after a slow start,  Brayshaw not as good as last year,  Viney has had his issues whilst Jones is now better suited to a back flank.  Lewis is no longer a factor so the output isn't fantastic but they've had no one in the forward line to kick it to all season.  ANB is ANB.

A good forward straightens up those disposing of the ball (by foot)  We miss Hogan more than we thought we would.

For instance,  Brayshaw is playing the same as he normally does (gets on to his non-preferred side to create seperation) but his kicks are often intercept marked or to a contest.  To my eyes he's doing the same thing but with different results.  Ditto for the others in the midfield when dispatching the ball into the forward line.

Finally, today we can now resolve the debate about whether it is the midfield or the forward line that is the problem.

Because today we have no actual full-time forwards named.

 

Enjoying the debate in here about the issues between our mids and forwards.

IMO it's a combination of weaknesses in both areas. I think our mids are doing a lot right, and certainly a lot right in terms of the way Goodwin has trained us to play, but we still have a number of mids who make bad mistakes by foot when trying to kick inside 50 - Viney is too up-and-under with his kicks, under pressure Oliver goes for distance, Brayshaw is unreliable (but to be commended for at least going onto his non-preferred). Early-season we had a team-wide problem of failing to lower our eyes as well, just sending it as deep as possible.

However, I think some (but not all) of these issues are caused or exacerbated by the forwards all being down on 2018 levels of output. There's less confidence, less leading up at the ball carrier, too many leads to the pockets, and a lack of marking form (TMac, Weideman and Hannan all worse than last year and obviously no Hogan). And then, possibly the biggest problem, is the lack of pressure when it hits the ground. All year it's been too easy for our opponents to rebound out of our forward 50 - Spargo and ANB nowhere near where they were last year, Garlett not consistently defending when he was in the side, the talls who have been down there (TMac, Weid, Preuss, T Smith, Keilty) all struggling with their defensive pressure in various ways.

My view is that some incremental improvements in these areas can lead to drastic improvements in our form - even like 25% more defensive pressure is going to prevent a number of the rebounds out of our forward 50, we'll generate more scores when we go inside, the game will be played more in our forward half, all of that will lead to confidence building from our mids and forwards and it spirals from there (just as it has spiralled the other way this year). But that 25% improvement won't come without hard work, better coaching and targeted list improvements over the off-season.

2 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

My view is that some incremental improvements in these areas can lead to drastic improvements in our form - even like 25% more defensive pressure is going to prevent a number of the rebounds out of our forward 50, we'll generate more scores when we go inside, the game will be played more in our forward half, all of that will lead to confidence building from our mids and forwards and it spirals from there (just as it has spiralled the other way this year). But that 25% improvement won't come without hard work, better coaching and targeted list improvements over the off-season.

Excellent point with regards to defensive pressure in our forward line t_u ... and it could be argued that those of our own (midfielders) who venture into our forward line don't apply enough defensive pressure either.

Are the coaches demanding that forward line pressure?  You'd like to imagine so but we can't be sure because we haven't seen it (of at least enough of it)

Bulldogs & Tigers won flags on the back of defensive forward line pressure (amongst other factors) so we are a ways off that.  As you said,  even a 25% improvement would make a big difference. 

Overall tackle counts in our forward 50 would be a good pointer ... especially if the number was abnormally low.  Our eyes tell us we're miles off so we probably only need confirmation with the actual numbers.