Lack of Finals = Failed Season?

[PaulRB 6,336]

1 minute ago, Danelska said:

Just on a side note

I'm going to derail my on thread - [censored] I hate the term unacceptable - and particularly coaches who use it post a massive loss. It's as hollow as David Warner having a media conference to state that he is going to take responsibility for clocking Root - does merely saying taking responsibility actually mean taking responsibility. 

Irrespective of performing good or not good  - teams are always striving for more...by stating that something is unacceptable behaviourally is window dressing for the spectators to relive a bit of bile...

I agree, I used it so the hard nuts wouldn't get in a tizzy.

Alway expected we continue to improve and 12-13 was a reasonable improvement... unfortunately it may not be enough for finals this year.

Edited August 7, 2017 by PaulRB

[The heart beats true 18,105]

We are on track to finish with as many wins as I thought we'd get, but have had no Gawn and no Hogan for most of the season.

Oliver has been huge. Garlett has taken a step forward. Hunt, Petracca, Oscar, Frost and ANB are all understanding what it takes. Tom Mac is a revelation up forward. Hibberd is the recruit of the year.

Most of our most dynamic players are 23 or under. Every week we are in the youngest 4 teams in this comp. We look tired because of age, and because we've had to travel to every corner of the country in the passed 6 weeks.

For me the only failure for the year has been the inability of our senior players to impact more. I expected more from Lewis, and Vince and Jones will never be what they were. Had they stepped up and got us 2 more wins (Freo and a North) most would agree the season was a success.

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

10 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

We are on track to finish with as many wins as I thought we'd get, but have had no Gawn and no Hogan for most of the season.

Oliver has been huge. Garlett has taken a step forward. Hunt, Petracca, Oscar, Frost and ANB are all understanding what it takes. Tom Mac is a revelation up forward. Hibberd is the recruit of the year.

Most of our most dynamic players are 23 or under. Every week we are in the youngest 4 teams in this comp. We look tired because of age, and because we've had to travel to every corner of the country in the passed 6 weeks.

For me the only failure for the year has been the inability of our senior players to impact more. I expected more from Lewis, and Vince and Jones will never be what they were. Had they stepped up and got us 2 more wins (Freo and a North) most would agree the season was a success.

It's a fair comment - really is a game of inches eh.. or time.

[praha 11,228]

A lot of people not responding to the question.  Highlighting we've improved is one thing. Failing to hit important KPIs is another. You can improve but still fail in your objective.

It's been a very tough season and it appears we've hit a wall. Imo missing the finals would undoubtedly be a failure. We're 4 years into a rebuild now and have shown that we are finals capable. If we miss out on finals with 13 wins (which won't happen - if we win 13 we make it), then it suggests we've "improved" incrementally at the same rate as the teams around us, but have ultimately failed to move up into the upper end of the league. That may very well be something that is out of the club's hands and you can only do so much. However considering some of our losses this year, particularly North last week, it would imo be a major indictment on the leadership group if we falter -- again -- at a moment when finals was within reach. 

We have failed to embed ourselves in the top 8 with one very poor loss. We now have an opportunity to redeem that and move back into finals contention. Faltering like we did last year is a massive failure considering we end the season with 3 games against teams below us on the ladder. You couldn't possibly argue this season has been a success if we miss finals from here. We've improved, sure, but it would still be a failure. The current variables make it easy to distinguish between success and failure.

[qwerty7 326]

Undoubtedly, even if we were to finish this season with no more wins, we have improved. We know we have improved because the expectation of supporters and journalists has changed - we go into every match thinking we can win. This time last year, I would have been complacent with yesterday's loss, never really giving us a shot to win. This year, I expect to win every match and believe that we can.

The one thing that still remains unimproved since last year is our inability to win those games we should. Now I know every team has a game like that, that game that they drop because upsets do happen. However, ours still occur too frequently and going into next season, I hope this is what we amend. 

Finals are still  a possibility and if we win this weekend, I think we have a good shot. But if we don't make it, as disappointing as it'd be, I would still consider the season a success or at least an improvement on last year. I am also particularly proud given how disrupted our season has been with injuries and illnesses etc. yet we still find ourselves in a position to contend. 

Although we have been very up and down, I think we should still remember that we are a young side. It might seem like an excuse, but it's not - it's a fact. Be excited by the prospect that we still have players like Petracca, Oliver, Brayshaw, Hunt, Hogan and so on, who are only going to improve and make our side better. 

Edited August 7, 2017 by qwerty7

[sisso 2,577]

Failure for mine if we miss the finals, all because we can't win the games a finals team should - how are we ever going to be a serious footy side if we constantly lose to bottom 6 teams?

[shorty 233]

The only knock on Goodwin I have ,is he seems to lack the unstanding of what supporters have been through over the last 11years. Its bloody hell. I appreciate the young side but I still have my reservations about our lack of real classy finishers and smart players under pressure. Too many inside mids who can win it ok but just don't finish it off, we play our best when we run and spread after half time verses Port, that has ceased to exist. 

[Willmoy1947 4,081]

Put up your hands if you would want to play against half a team of "dopes" anyway in finals.........

[Pennant St Dee 13,071]

It may be a game judged on wins and losses and playing finals would be great. Unlike the usual handwringers who have been very vocal in the last fortnight and after Hawks Freo and 1st Nort loss. I like to look at the season and list overall moving forward. The next 3 weeks will alter my assessments but could have been so different without the big structural imteruptions we've had through the season.

Hogan - interupted season

Jones - same

Salem - improved

Watts - been poor since returning but lets not forget how improved his contested side was in Gawns absence

Trac - shown plenty but starting to look tired

Lewis - despite the knockers has brought much needed nous

Viney - improved as a leader and player and played most season under duress

Trenners - done

Brayshaw - can't be judged

Gawn - injury interupted

Tyson -same same

Oliver - improved to borderline elite

Hibberd - great acquisition been poor last 2 weeks but overall fantastic 

Stretch - gone backwards 

Kent - as above and decision time

Frost - raw with brain fades but improved 

Melksham - took time but imo improved as defensive forward 

Hannan - great season and hopefully the rest helps

Pedersen - important when Gawn was out

AVB- never got started

Vince - same 

JKH -improved but IMO just depth

Tmac - improved great season

Weid - goung to take more time

Hullet - clearly hasn't come on

Omac - much improved

Hunt - improved

Nibler - improved 

Bugg - had improved but lack of discipline has cost our forward structure 

Spencer - inopportune injury killed his chance 

King - ???

Kennedy - unseen at AFL

Garlett - improved AA form

Johnstone - ????

Jetta - underrated gun improved every year since Neeld left

Smith - inkury

Mckenna - as above

White - hasn't come on 

Wagner - slight improvement 

Harmes - improved 

Smith - looked promising early but injury has been a factor 

Keilty - ??

Flipper -??

Maynard - promising 

 

[buck_nekkid 5,845]

As a supporter, I have loved that going to a game does not mean the expectation of a thrashing.  It means that I have an expectation of a competitive game of footy, and a hope (in most cases) that we could win it.

From this standpoint, the season has been a huge success.  After decades of dross, we are at least competitive.

We also have an exciting young list, that if we keep together and develop further, are a group that I am keen to keep following.  That is a win.

Finals would have to be the benchmark pass or fail for almost every team.  We are - as it stands - on that benchmark.  The last 3 weeks will tell us if we make it or not.  The fact that we have shot ourselves in the foot with some stupid losses (it is Melbourne, after all...) may come back to haunt the group.  We are looking like we are either 'cooked', have been worked out, or just not getting form out of our key players (or a mixture of all 3).

For me, if we dont make the finals, it is not a fail.  I rate the season a success from so many development angles.  Next year, however, we are either a finals team or nothing. We have learned to defend under Roos.  We have learned to do the contested stuff Year 1 under Goody.  Next year we have to connect better and have a forward line that works.  Then we will go up several gears.  And finals will be an absolute minimum pass mark.

[KingDingAling 3,752]

Not a failed season. I came into this year reasonable pessimistic about Simon Goodwin as a coach. Yet he has proven that he has what it takes. Granted there have been some coaching lapses throughout the year where he has been outcoached on game day. But he is an inexperienced and young coach. I think broadly he has gotten most things right. We have an innovative coach on our hands, and one that appears to be building strong relationships with the players. I don't really see this year as a failed season, but more as a platform to build off of.

List wise we have seen Jayden Hunt continue his improvement, and have a consistent year. Gawn - when on the park - has been A grade and is the leagues top 3 ruck man when going. Oliver has been exceptional and continued his improvement. Viney has bounced back, and Nathan Jones continues his great form (as he has done through most of his career). Jetta has been great down back. We have added Hibberd - who looks a shoe in for AA. Melksham has rejuvenated himself as a Melbourne player. ANB has improved out of sight.

The positives are there to see. The results have been mixed - we have been inconsistent. Our biggest weakness is that we are ineffective by foot, and that hurts us going forward. There is no point winning the clearances if we are just going to either turn it over, or not use it to our best capabilities. We need to be hitting our forwards cleaner. If we can do that Hogan should be on track for 70 plus next year. And that will go a long way to our prospects of top 4 in 2018. Next year it would be very disappointing if we didn't make finals. I think it is reasonable that we aim for a top 4 finish in 2018.

Edited August 7, 2017 by KingDingAling

[Demons1858 1,742]

Our player development does show more positives than negatives. So why aren't we better positioned leading into round 21?

I have come up with some reasons:

1) Fixture: Its more difficult in the back half before improving in the last 3 games. We have lost to Adelaide, GWS,, Sydney in the recent past which shouldn't surprise. We lost to North but weren't favorites in our wins against Port and West Coast away either. So we are were we should expect to be with 3 easier games coming up (vs St.Ki, Bris and Coll). AFL has had upsets each week and we are no different

2) Injuries and suspension: We have had important players missing i.e. Hogan, Gawn, Viney, Vince, Lewis, Watts, Tyson

3) Returning players: The right intention has been there but players have returned underdone from injury upsetting the balance and game style of the team by not being able to uphold their key roles to a high enough level e.g.Watts, Gawn, and to a lesser extent Viney. Our high performing fitness team might not be that high performing or players are being selected before they are ready by match committee. Take your pick

The positive: we are were I would have expected to be after round 20 given the fixture and a  young exciting but inconsistent side having had some unexpected wins and losses along the way.

Our big test was always going to be the last few rounds. Nothing has changes!!! As Goody has said "its your position after round 23 that counts".

[KingDingAling 3,752]

49 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

It may be a game judged on wins and losses and playing finals would be great. Unlike the usual handwringers who have been very vocal in the last fortnight and after Hawks Freo and 1st Nort loss. I like to look at the season and list overall moving forward. The next 3 weeks will alter my assessments but could have been so different without the big structural imteruptions we've had through the season.

Hogan - interupted season

Jones - same

Salem - improved

Watts - been poor since returning but lets not forget how improved his contested side was in Gawns absence

Trac - shown plenty but starting to look tired

Lewis - despite the knockers has brought much needed nous

Viney - improved as a leader and player and played most season under duress

Trenners - done

Brayshaw - can't be judged

Gawn - injury interupted

Tyson -same same

Oliver - improved to borderline elite

Hibberd - great acquisition been poor last 2 weeks but overall fantastic 

Stretch - gone backwards 

Kent - as above and decision time

Frost - raw with brain fades but improved 

Melksham - took time but imo improved as defensive forward 

Hannan - great season and hopefully the rest helps

Pedersen - important when Gawn was out

AVB- never got started

Vince - same 

JKH -improved but IMO just depth

Tmac - improved great season

Weid - goung to take more time

Hullet - clearly hasn't come on

Omac - much improved

Hunt - improved

Nibler - improved 

Bugg - had improved but lack of discipline has cost our forward structure 

Spencer - inopportune injury killed his chance 

King - ???

Kennedy - unseen at AFL

Garlett - improved AA form

Johnstone - ????

Jetta - underrated gun improved every year since Neeld left

Smith - inkury

Mckenna - as above

White - hasn't come on 

Wagner - slight improvement 

Harmes - improved 

Smith - looked promising early but injury has been a factor 

Keilty - ??

Flipper -??

Maynard - promising 

 

I think you are underselling Oliver.

[poita 3,889]

After round 21 last year we were in 9th position with 10 wins and a percentage of 104.78%. Lose to St Kilda this week, and we'll have the same number of wins, and be 11th on the ladder with a percentage of just over 100. We all know how last season ended, and there is a fair chance it will happen again if the players don't find a way out of the malaise that they are currently in.

The positive from last year was that we had four rising star nominations and there should have been a fifth. Even though we didn't play finals, it felt as though we had taken a significant step forward in improving the quality of the list.

This year we have picked up Hannan who looks okay, given debuts to 2 x Smith & Maynard, none of whom look to be more than fringe players, and have had no improvement from the likes of Weideman, Hulett & White. Lewis will not be part of our next premiership side, and I still question whether Melksham is capable of performing in big games, whilst Hibberd has proved to be a good acquisition.

I can accept not improving our ladder position and win / loss ratio if we are taking steps to improve the side long term. However, when you're not winning enough games AND not markedly improving your list, then all you are doing is treading water, or worse. Clearly Richmond has gone past us, and there is a fair argument that Essendon has as well.

From being well inside the top 8 for most of the year, having a favourable run home, and (finally) having close to our best team available, it would be a major disappointment not to play finals this year. Even the most forgiving of supporters would have to agree that it is a missed opportunity at the very least.

[Demonland 71,264]

This thread now has an unscientific poll attached.

[praha 11,228]

10 minutes ago, poita said:

After round 21 last year we were in 9th position with 10 wins and a percentage of 104.78%. Lose to St Kilda this week, and we'll have the same number of wins, and be 11th on the ladder with a percentage of just over 100. We all know how last season ended, and there is a fair chance it will happen again if the players don't find a way out of the malaise that they are currently in.

The positive from last year was that we had four rising star nominations and there should have been a fifth. Even though we didn't play finals, it felt as though we had taken a significant step forward in improving the quality of the list.

This year we have picked up Hannan who looks okay, given debuts to 2 x Smith & Maynard, none of whom look to be more than fringe players, and have had no improvement from the likes of Weideman, Hulett & White. Lewis will not be part of our next premiership side, and I still question whether Melksham is capable of performing in big games, whilst Hibberd has proved to be a good acquisition.

I can accept not improving our ladder position and win / loss ratio if we are taking steps to improve the side long term. However, when you're not winning enough games AND not markedly improving your list, then all you are doing is treading water, or worse. Clearly Richmond has gone past us, and there is a fair argument that Essendon has as well.

From being well inside the top 8 for most of the year, having a favourable run home, and (finally) having close to our best team available, it would be a major disappointment not to play finals this year. Even the most forgiving of supporters would have to agree that it is a missed opportunity at the very least.

It's a big test for our leadership group as well. There's a reason why Viney was made Co captain, and this talk of Jones being somewhat displeased initially suggests he has something to prove. There has been no bigger test of his leadership character than what he faces in the final 3 rounds. He needs to go above and beyond going through the motions and breaking even. The same goes for Vince, Lewis, and to a lesser extent, Jetta and Hibberd. We need Jones to take this team on his shoulders and guide them to a finals appearance. I know it's a lot to ask, but it's his time now. There's no point up your gaming on QB, ANZAC Eve, if you're not going to do it in the last 3 weeks with your team's first finals appearance in a decade on the line. I'm going to be watching Jones more than anyone in these final 3 weeks.

I've been critical of him on this forum multiple times, but he's never *really* been put to the sword. His time is now. El Capitán needs to be the one with the final say. If he's not, then he'll just be proving Goodwin right for taking captaincy exclusivity off it. It's a privilege, not an entitlement. He now has to earn it for the first time in his career.

Edited August 7, 2017 by praha

[Demons1858 1,742]

37 minutes ago, praha said:

It's a big test for our leadership group as well. There's a reason why Viney was made Co captain, and this talk of Jones being somewhat displeased initially suggests he has something to prove. There has been no bigger test of his leadership character than what he faces in the final 3 rounds. He needs to go above and beyond going through the motions and breaking even. The same goes for Vince, Lewis, and to a lesser extent, Jetta and Hibberd. We need Jones to take this team on his shoulders and guide them to a finals appearance. I know it's a lot to ask, but it's his time now. There's no point up your gaming on QB, ANZAC Eve, if you're not going to do it in the last 3 weeks with your team's first finals appearance in a decade on the line. I'm going to be watching Jones more than anyone in these final 3 weeks.

I've been critical of him on this forum multiple times, but he's never *really* been put to the sword. His time is now. El Capitán needs to be the one with the final say. If he's not, then he'll just be proving Goodwin right for taking captaincy exclusivity off it. It's a privilege, not an entitlement. He now has to earn it for the first time in his career.

Jones absolutely has multiple credits in the bank.

I think the point is more (as you touched on briefly) that the reputation of the all our experienced players and leaders at the club will be affected positively or negatively by the way they perform in these key games.

If Watts continues his poor form in such an important time for the club can we ever rely on him in finals?

If Vince / Lewis get reported again this season, how will their legacy at the MFC be looked upon?

Will Gawn get back to something like his best after returning too early underdone?

Can Jones / Viney drive and influence our team at important moments in games as co-captains or has Goody stuffed things up?

Can James Harmes do something about his hair leading into finals?

[Lucifers Hero 39,504]

1 hour ago, Demonland said:

This thread now has an unscientific poll attached.

If I recall you ran a similar poll at the bye.  I can't remember the title of the thread.

Are those results available?

[Willmoy1947 4,081]

With three games to go i ask :- are we proud of our team? For me the answer is yes definitely, whether we make Finals or not and i agree with all  the above contributions..........

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

4 minutes ago, willmoy said:

With three games to go i ask :- are we proud of our team? For me the answer is yes definitely, whether we make Finals or not and i agree with all  the above contributions..........

@willmoy That's a profoundly more positive way to ask it, than I did. Kudos.

[Dirts 429]

4 hours ago, Lord Travis said:

If we don't make finals then this season a failure. This is unarguable.

In 2016 we finished on the cusp of the 8 and Roos handed Goodwin a top 8 quality list with good support around him. Anything other than making the 8 and playing finals means we have stagnated or gone backwards. We all know it's been 11 years without finals at this stage, which is pathetic.  No other club has been this poor for decades. Even teams like Carlton, Richmond, Saints etc. have all made finals a few times in the past decade. The only other team not to have a finals appearance in the past 11 years is Gold Coast, and they've only existed 5-6 years and are deemed a failure at the point. Jesus since we last played finals over half my family has died, I've completed a University degree, I've lived overseas for two years, I've bought my first property, sold my first property, bought my second property, had 3 long term girlfriends, got engaged, got married, have a kid on the way etc. The fact I've been able to tick off so many of the key events in an adult life since we last played finals is [censored]. It makes me furious at the club and the AFL. 

Disregarding the 11 years missing, our current "rebuild" started with Roos, so we are now in year 4 of a rebuild. To not be able to turn it around in this time is a failure. If we don't make it this year, and somehow don't next year too, then that's 5 years of rebuild with no success, despite landing Paul Roos and him cleaning the place out to start us fresh. That is Terry Wallace Richmond level failure. Thank god we are now sound off-field!

We now sit at the exact same spot we were last year. 10 wins, and a few weeks to go to win the final matches and earn a finals place. Last year we folded like an accordion and lost to bottom 4 placed Carlton and then got done by 100+ by Geelong. This year, we are in the same place but with an easier run, playing 3 bottom 8 teams. If we stuff up again, we have not improved on last year, despite having an easier draw. If anything, that means we have gone backwards due to the same result from an easier draw. 

Reality is we probably should have done better this year at this stage. Our second half of the season has been poor. We have won two matches by more than 8 points, and the rest we either scraped over the line or lost. While it was nice to win some of those close ones, it goes to show we weren't in control and it could have just as easily gone the other way. This past 6 weeks our contested ball, clearances, and scoring have all dropped off massively. Statistically we are a bottom 4 team over the past 6 weeks. When we were in a position to challenge for a top 4 place, we crumbed. Yes, we have had injuries, but the team we fielded on the weekend was probably our strongest for the year and yet it did not give a yelp and had 10 goals in a row kicked against us. Unacceptable. Until we can instil some mental toughness and some leadership into this team, we will continue to fail.

I appreciate we have shown improvement at times this year, but fact is we are in the exact same spot as last year and the exact same questions regarding lack of leadership and lack of mental toughness are being asked. To me that says we have not really improved. Don't get me wrong, I'll be stoked if we scrape into finals, purely because I have invested countless hours and hard earned dollars into this club over decades of my life, and its been so long since I've seen us play finals that even a token appearance will appease me. Says a lot about how poor this club has been, and how starved for any semblance of success us supporters really are.

I hope like hell we can manage to win the last 3 and play finals. Us members and supporters deserve to see that after all this time. It's time the players and club stood up instead of falling over again.

Agree in some aspects but 4 years in rebuild. Don't count the first two of Roos . That was a clean out not a rebuild. 

I think the rebuild began in the third year of Roos and we have won ten games. Considering the injuries etc it is not bad. 

It is those loses to North  and freo that I find hard to take. 12 points and maybe 3 -4 %. That would have us in the top 4 and being ivory towered like the Tigers.

hope we can win the last 3. No reason we can't .

[Gipsy Danger 1,067]

Big fat F if we miss finals.

given we were sitting on the ladder most of the season, the opportunities missed or thrown away and the relative ease of our fixture missing finals will be be inexcusable and a massive oppertunity lost

[DemonWA 3,928]

I don't think missing finals is a failure. It would be disappointing given we could have made it, but at the start of the season I didn't expect us to make it.

Things we've learnt this year regardless of finals;

- Our young players are good

- The Roos/Goodwin transition was successful

- We're not easy beats and on our day we can take it up to every team in the comp

[What 18,810]

We didnt recruit Lewis and Hibberd to not make finals.

There are three games left and its all there for us to take.  A massive fail if we dont get there.

Every single Melbourne supporters should be sick to death of not being there in September. 

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

8 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

We didnt recruit Lewis and Hibberd to not make finals.

There are three games left and its all there for us to take.  A massive fail if we dont get there.

Every single Melbourne supporters should be sick to death of not being there in September. 

Ok....and if that's true, how does that affect any change on the football department?

I pay my membership, (thus I care greatly)  but I do realise that the players aren't thinking about Danelska when they win and lose