agree on Kent, but I think Hogan might get shopped around this year, rather than Watts.

Can't extend a blokes contract last year and shop him around this year.
Talk about creating a poor culture.

On 8/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, rpfc said:

If you are looking for someone to blame for that first half - Goodwin is your man.

I couldn't believe it when I saw how we were playing Manuka as a local... Just horrendous instruction and the fact we didn't have a loose man in the first quarter lost us the game.

One of the more sensible comments amid the usual cavalcade of self-opinionated but under-informed commentators.   A former coach who I respected a lot once said to me 'there are no bad players, just bad coaches'.  Coaches are responsible (among other things) for:

1. Ensuring players are fit for selection purpose i.e. fit enough to do what's expected of them.
2. Clear on what their responsibilities are in relation to the team structure and plan
3. Provided with the appropriate resources (training,etc) to contribute to achieving the desired result
4. Adjusting the plan when circumstances require it to be adjusted

From what I've seen over the last two weeks, it's been a coaching failure primarily.  I, among many others, am a bit sick of arrnchair potting of players when their criticism should rightfully go elsewhere.  I agree with many other posters who have suggested that the delivery into the F50 was poor.  The players haven't changed that much so what can the cause possibly be?  Injuries, divine intervention, poor coaching?  You choose.

10 hours ago, dpositive said:

I also watch Watts when at the game and disagree.

He always runs to a somewhere and usually this is a space where he then has time and most importantly balance to distribute the ball. He often does this at pace and does not avoid a contact if an opponent also gets to that space. He perhaps does not run to contests but rather runs to where the action will be.

That he is often ignored by his teammates or that they do not have the skill or often time to deliver it to him is a significant factor in his performance.

I don't bElieve  he ever plays without intent. But perhaps some with less ability do not know what that intention is or was. I used to see Watts get the ball and instinctively go to give it off but in that time their was never any teammate with the ability to be where he thought they should be. I see that improving and the structures and playing complement has improved. We still have some way to go but there have been matches this year when Watts has been sublime, not due to his efforts but due to those around him using him or the space he created.

Watts is often maligned as being non competitive but you do not create as many goals as he does without being at the contest. He cannot be at every contest but the more his teammates put him in the better he and the team go.

Note I'm not potting Watt's, just commenting on what I observed and I agree that when he's in the contest he doesn't shirk it (though he could improve his tackling technique to stick them better).  And yes he does a lot of running and often it is at pace, but on the weekend it was mostly done at three quarter pace.  It may be a team role to run to space all the time, but note while he is doing this then the opposition will normally have an extra number at the contest (which they use to win the ball and then run away / break the lines with).  

Also running to space is even more effective when done from a contest and not existing space (not the spread from congestion, but the long 70-100 metre runs to get on the end of a chain of possessions) as it first maintains the advantage of numbers at the contest, burns unfit opponents who get caught out wasting a lot of energy fruitlessly chasing, and disrupts opponents own set plays and defensive structures as they need to be reactive to this free-wheeling running  ...... But ...... it is no good running to the wrong space (requiring a difficult pass, often high risk, under pressure, through congestion; or to non dangerous areas where the defence can bottle up the next kick - in this circumstance they will let you run all day with a token effort of making you accountable) and most importantly when not used SPRINTING to and into the actual contest (running with intent is figurative).

Also if a player is to smart for his teammates and is passing (kicking/handballing) the ball where he believes they are supposed to be but are not; then this in reality is "not smart"!  This can be extrapolated to giving it off to players who are in a supposed better position for opening up the game, but in reality actually covered by the opposition - which a lot of our players are guilty off.  

As for teammates not being where they are supposed to be, well this can and often will be an effect of the opposition play; a simple bump, shepherd, extra player blocking space, etc (unfortunately they do have an effect on the game, otherwise it's called training).   Great players consistently find the best option of the available options; not what is supposed to be the best option when all the stars align.

Lastly running to where you want the ball to be, not to where it will be ....  is lazy.  

I'm not saying Watt's is guilty of all this (I'm not into criticising players)  just responding to a couple of points.  Watts does play many good games, but this was not one of them; and my original observation is in my opinion part of what contributed to this; as to was the gale force conditions and a game style that did not suit the conditions (and his role).

 

 

 

13 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Watts and Kent are our trade bait this year.

You blokes make me laugh......3 weeks ago you were all hailing the team as finals bound and how hard it would be to break into the side.

Now you blokes want to trade players that are having a drop in form.....Some are calling for the coaches to be replaced...."Oh my god we are doomed"

Jack has had a pretty good year IMO    Since he has come back from injury, he has struggled to have an influence, but so have other returning from injury.   Form is a fickle thing.

Last time I looked, we are just percentage out of the eight and 1 game off 5th place with 3 games to go.   In a season full of upsets and unpredictability.      But sorry for interupting.    Carry on the bagging.

6 hours ago, Jimcor2 said:

'there are no bad players, just bad coaches

Seriously. There are hundreds of bad players. Some of them at our club.

A coach can only do so much.

I could tell you every minute every day to lose weight, work hard, go for a run and stop complaining if these were your goals.

But only you can do it. Players are just the same.Some of them just lack either skills, passion and or guts.

All this talk about Watts would be negligible if he was just another recruit like most of the rest of the players. 

Gawn is rarely referred to as pick 36 and Hunt is also rarely referred to as pick 57.  I could give you numerous other examples. 

But if a player is a top-end draft pick such as Watts, It's a completely different story.  Collectively we then often judge the draft pick number, not the player.  We really do.

And by now, most should have realised that the draft and the order that we pick these schoolboy footballers is a misnomer and majorly flawed.

Watts is turning out to be the footballer that he was always going to turn out to be - the issue is that we like to forecast greatness according to a draft pick number and if that greatness isn't forthcoming, we lash out.  Not all, but many think that way.  All because of a numbering system that is by no means accurate. 

All of the following players were standout juniors  and in some cases, absolute star juniors ...

Pick 2 - Sylvia (C+)

Pick 5 - McLean (C+)

Pick 1 - Johnstone (B)

Pick 4 - Morton (D)

Pick 4 - Toumpas (D)

Pick 1 - Watts (C-)

Pick 2 - Trengove (C-)

Of the rest, It's too early to tell with Petracca, Brayshaw & Weideman although Oliver looks to be the goods. 

Nearly  half of all 1st round draft picks are busts and in nearly every case, those players referred to as busts were standout juniors.

By the same token, it would be interesting to see where Jack would be if he was a pick 50 or thereabouts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, Macca said:

All this talk about Watts would be negligible if he was just another recruit like most of the rest of the players. 

Gawn is rarely referred to as pick 36 and Hunt is also rarely referred to as pick 57.  I could give you numerous other examples. 

But if a player is a top-end draft pick such as Watts, It's a completely different story.  Collectively we then often judge the draft pick number, not the player.  We really do.

And by now, most should have realised that the draft and the order that we pick these schoolboy footballers is a misnomer and majorly flawed.

Watts is turning out to be the footballer that he was always going to turn out to be - the issue is that we like to forecast greatness according to a draft pick number and if that greatness isn't forthcoming, we lash out.  Not all, but many think that way.  All because of a numbering system that is by no means accurate. 

Lot of sense in this post.

Watts last 3 weeks have left me calling for him to be dropped. But your right, his number one status has created misappropriated levels of expectation.

Having said that if any other player like weid or JKH played shockers for 3 weeks they go the twos (as they have).

Not sure what to think. The problem with Jack is, his form has only been good last season and half of this season.

HIs first 6 years were very average and he seems to have gone back to that old form. Maybe it is just a slump.If he had excelled prior to the last 2 years then some may be more forgiving.

How he plays the last 3 games will expose a lot. 

 

On 06/08/2017 at 0:35 PM, At the break of Gawn said:

Not if our midfield delivered the ball like they should. Melbourne has the lowest scoring efficiency for forward 50 entries in the league. Even Buddy Franklin would hit new lows playing in our forward line. The butchering of the ball is our ultimate downfall.

What you say is part of the problem, I agree

Application 100% to the task at hand is another, Jack has suffered from this most of his career, now if he plays in September anything like he has been playing in the last 2 games he will get ripped apart by the opposition team.

2 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Lot of sense in this post.

Watts last 3 weeks have left me calling for him to be dropped. But your right, his number one status has created misappropriated levels of expectation.

Having said that if any other player like weid or JKH played shockers for 3 weeks they go the twos (as they have).

Not sure what to think. The problem with Jack is, his form has only been good last season and half of this season.

HIs first 6 years were very average and he seems to have gone back to that old form. Maybe it is just a slump.If he had excelled prior to the last 2 years then some may be more forgiving.

How he plays the last 3 games will expose a lot. 

 

If we just simply judge any player on form alone (sometimes players are left in the team to gain experience or such-like) then Watts should be viewed by the MC like any other player. 

But here's the thing ... who do we replace him with?  A player who may not be much better or perhaps a player who can't play his role? (3rd or 4th forward type)

Sometimes you just have to keep playing blokes and then hope for the best.  We know he can play better but he's not on his Pat Malone in that department.

Watts is also the sort of player who can play quite well against the lesser teams.  A lot of players are like that though.

I'm with @rjay ... it's time to throw him into the ruck periodically.  The physicality of rucking is forced upon him and the rucking seems to improve the other parts of his game.

 

Funny...we used to have the HIGHEST effectiveness scoring once in the f50

Hmm ??Wonder who should be under the spotlight !

I see Jack Watts as a player who has a lot of raw talent without the intense desire it takes to go the next level , id even predict that he may retire at a relatively young age to pursue other interests.

2 hours ago, Bossdog said:

You blokes make me laugh......3 weeks ago you were all hailing the team as finals bound and how hard it would be to break into the side.

Now you blokes want to trade players that are having a drop in form.....Some are calling for the coaches to be replaced...."Oh my god we are doomed"

Jack has had a pretty good year IMO    Since he has come back from injury, he has struggled to have an influence, but so have other returning from injury.   Form is a fickle thing.

Last time I looked, we are just percentage out of the eight and 1 game off 5th place with 3 games to go.   In a season full of upsets and unpredictability.      But sorry for interupting.    Carry on the bagging.

Not me.

Jack's year has been average I reckon. He has played different roles this year so its not an easy comparison but someone like a Charlie Curnow has arguably had a better one.

Jack's played 150 games. He knows what to do but doesn't do it. You might have forgotten but he was dropped last year and was not picked in the early season because the coaches clearly weren't happy with him.

As for Kent, I would hope you aren't trying to justify his form. He has gone backwards and should be traded. He is allergic to applying defensive pressure and he can't kick goals.

7 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

I see Jack Watts as a player who has a lot of raw talent without the intense desire it takes to go the next level , id even predict that he may retire at a relatively young age to pursue other interests.

Exactly. trade bait

34 minutes ago, Macca said:

But here's the thing ... who do we replace him with?  A player who may not be much better or perhaps a player who can't play his role? (3rd or 4th forward type

Agreed....Weid not ready.

So are we lacking another key position player?

6 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Agreed....Weid not ready.

So are we lacking another key position player?

Yep ... and another back-up ruckman , a ruckman forward and a KPD  And we need a dynamic midfielder or 3.  King might come on and so might Filipovic but the MC would know.

Most clubs have to make-do with what they've got though ... building a super-list is extremely difficult with an 18 team competition. 

Unless they implode,  GWS should be thereabouts for at least another 5 years.  They were smart enough to offload their busts earlier than usual and have replaced those players with more top-end picks.  Double-dipping (so to speak)

And if it is a numbers game which can be understood, they're getting it right.  Most clubs persevere with top end picks until the obvious is even more obvious.   We've done it.

Sydney have just re-signed Reid, maybe we pursue someone like Sinclair? I still think we are a KPF down. It's hard to know where Jesse's headspace is after a rough year, would not blame the kid for going home to family, but if that were to happen, who would we like to get?

15 hours ago, leucopogon said:

agree on Kent, but I think Hogan might get shopped around this year, rather than Watts.

 

It doesn't always make a difference, but I think many forget that Hogan barracked for the Crows as a youngster.

It would have made a difference for me if I was gifted enough. Just a sweetener, but a difference nonetheless.

I think you need to accept when a player has more currency on the market than you think he will show in the following seasons. I believe Jesse Hogan and Jack Watts wont help us to play finals. Harsh on Hogan but plenty would pays overs.

One or both should help get Lever and/or Kelly. Thats what we need even if the goal square looks forlorn, we do at least as well, it seems without them. And the possibility of getting an outside true A class mid and Lever is alluring.

There is no way, no way the club will trade Hogan especially for a backman.

7 hours ago, DeeZee said:

I see Jack Watts as a player who has a lot of raw talent without the intense desire it takes to go the next level , id even predict that he may retire at a relatively young age to pursue other interests.

This is a fairly accurate prediction on his current state, but It just depends where his career goes over the next couple of years. If he got traded to an interstate club (particularly a Gold Coast or Sydney based team) you could see him fading into the background with an early retirement if the team doesn't have much success. 

I don't subscribe to the "lack of desire" comments completely though. He clearly gets frustrated on the field when things don't go his way and even seeing footage of him from Saturday where he kicked some bags in frustration walking into the rooms, (although this may have been to make up for his 0 kicks in the first half) he does care about his performance and the team - and he has stated in interviews that he hates the commentary around his lack of desire for the game.

When we're playing well, and the structures are working, and the delivery is good, he can look like a star as everything clicks into gear for him. But I've noticed in contested situations when the kick isn't to his advantage, he clearly struggles and maybe even excuses himself from that extra 10% as he knows the kick should've been better (I think Jesse also does this but he's more demonstrative). Really good players can still mark/win the ball even when it's not to their advantage. 

10 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

Seriously. There are hundreds of bad players. Some of them at our club.

A coach can only do so much.

I could tell you every minute every day to lose weight, work hard, go for a run and stop complaining if these were your goals.

But only you can do it. Players are just the same.Some of them just lack either skills, passion and or guts.

You seemed to have missed the point.  I should have been clearer.  ‘Good’ coaches do not select ‘bad’ players.  If they do, they are a bad coach.  They have the choice of either training them to do the job they want them to do or leaving them out of the side.  If Jack Watts is unable or unwilling to perform his role, then he should not have played.  I do not believe this to be the case.  I think there are only two scenarios :

1. that he needed a run at Casey after being cleared to play in order to get back up to speed
2. that he was doing what was asked but the delivery from the midfield was poor. 

Either way, the coaches are ultimately responsible.  I think that it was a bit of both but if it was the latter, the coaches needed to adjust the tactics mid-game and preferably, mid first quarter.  They didn’t we lost!  Hopefully they will learn.

On 8/6/2017 at 7:12 PM, Demon Disciple said:

He has never had footy as his #1 priority in his life. He's never been like Viney who lives and dies by footy, and he never will. He has never wanted to be the centre of attention. Deal with it.

Someone who does and has gone badly missing the second half of the year is Petracca. He needs to lift big time, be it as midfield relief or (where we need him contributing more) as a forward.

Not defending Watts last 3 games....But footballers do & should have other interests as they are not robots...Im sure the A graders across all clubs have an outlet.. Only Watts knows why he's playing poor!

Petracca in his second season, enough said!

Each player is debriefed after each game or they were 10 years ago.  It would be interested to hear his.  Why didn't you run to help?  Can we have our money back please?

16 hours ago, DeeZee said:

I see Jack Watts as a player who has a lot of raw talent without the intense desire it takes to go the next level , id even predict that he may retire at a relatively young age to pursue other interests.

It appears to me he  is curently in transition to retirement and has been some time

Call it the Tomic syndrome in other words its our problem not Jacks. 

He is just getting on with life and happens to play the odd game of football. Football is not his life  and in some ways I respect that.