Brief(-ish) moments of being switched off during games

[titan_uranus 24,628]

Round 1 - St Kilda kicked 5 in a row in the last 15 minutes of the first quarter.

Round 2 - Carlton kicked 5.4 to our 0.2 in about 20 minutes of play either side of half time

Round 3 - Geelong kicked 5 in a row in about 7 minutes of play either side of three quarter time

Round 4 - Fremantle kicked 8 in a row from the half-time siren to the end of the third quarter

Round 5 - Richmond kicked the last 5 goals in the final quarter in about 15 minutes.

Round 6 - the only game so far where our opponent hasn't had a run of goals (the first half was too low quality for either side to do it)

Round 7 - Hawthorn kicked the last 4 goals of the first quarter in about 15 minutes.

In all four of our losses we lost by less than the score kicked during this period of being "off".

It seems to me that we are spending more of the game playing better than our opponent than we do playing worse but we don't convert the periods of dominance whilst we let our opponent convert their periods of dominance into scores.

The optimist says if we work on lowering the time spent "off" during a game, the wins will flow.

The pessimist says we've had this same problem for years and we still, despite setting ourselves for finals this year, cannot get through games without these small periods which ruin what is usually otherwise 2 or 3 or 3.5 quarters of strong football.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Good post titan, and it does highlight a serious problem within our games at the minute.

The challenge we face is looking at how rectify it and why it's happening.  Is it inexperience?  Is it lack of leadership?  Is it a little bit of over confidence?  You could argue that, in many of those games, we were in control and we allowed the opposition back into the contest.  Carlton, Fremantle, Richmond, Geelong... we all had them on toast and, apart from Carlton, we let them back in to the game and it has cost us dearly.

It's an easy problem to identify but it may be much harder to fix.  

[Skuit 9,965]

2 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Round 1 - St Kilda kicked 5 in a row in the last 15 minutes of the first quarter.

Round 2 - Carlton kicked 5.4 to our 0.2 in about 20 minutes of play either side of half time

Round 3 - Geelong kicked 5 in a row in about 7 minutes of play either side of three quarter time

Round 4 - Fremantle kicked 8 in a row from the half-time siren to the end of the third quarter

Round 5 - Richmond kicked the last 5 goals in the final quarter in about 15 minutes.

Round 6 - the only game so far where our opponent hasn't had a run of goals (the first half was too low quality for either side to do it)

Round 7 - Hawthorn kicked the last 4 goals of the first quarter in about 15 minutes.

In all four of our losses we lost by less than the score kicked during this period of being "off".

It seems to me that we are spending more of the game playing better than our opponent than we do playing worse but we don't convert the periods of dominance whilst we let our opponent convert their periods of dominance into scores.

The optimist says if we work on lowering the time spent "off" during a game, the wins will flow.

The pessimist says we've had this same problem for years and we still, despite setting ourselves for finals this year, cannot get through games without these small periods which ruin what is usually otherwise 2 or 3 or 3.5 quarters of strong football.

We've also had strong runs of goals in these games. I don't know if it's just the nature of our game-plan or sport in general or modern AFL or something that happens with rotations etc. When we light up we're unstoppable. But there's also periods of dominance where we leak goals the other way and allow teams to keep in touch, and periods where we have the overall balance in our favour but can't quite convert that into a meaningful dent on the scoreboard. It must be exhausting. 

Don't be pessimistic though. We haven't remotely had this problem in recent years: dominating large swaths of games and putting together regular 7-8 goal quarters. 

[Sir Why You Little 36,644]

Still Mentally soft. The skill level has improved but we are not toughened up. 

I do not understand why this still happens but it does

i do not get why a club is not "on" at the first bounce

[davo 209]

It's all down to inexperience, we have 10-12 players each week with less than 30 games, these flat spots are costing us games, we're 3-4 when we could easily be 6-1. Goodwin has to get on top of this now!!!

[Engorged Onion 10,135]

5 hours ago, davo said:

It's all down to inexperience, we have 10-12 players each week with less than 30 games, these flat spots are costing us games, we're 3-4 when we could easily be 6-1. Goodwin has to get on top of this now!!!

@davo, great point! Mind, Goodwin himself will be hard pressed to put one extra game of experience in to each player he chooses to play per round I think...

[Engorged Onion 10,135]

5 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Still Mentally soft. The skill level has improved but we are not toughened up. 

I do not understand why this still happens but it does

i do not get why a club is not "on" at the first bounce

Perhaps they need a psychologist

Perhaps they need a new psychologist

Perhaps the players could hold themselves accountable to their behaviours, not just when they feel 'good' 'on' 'up for it'

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,283]

5 hours ago, davo said:

It's all down to inexperience, we have 10-12 players each week with less than 30 games, these flat spots are costing us games, we're 3-4 when we could easily be 6-1. Goodwin has to get on top of this now!!!

Not sure how Goodwin can fix this? 

[Ted Lasso 18,784]

8 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Round 1 - St Kilda kicked 5 in a row in the last 15 minutes of the first quarter.

Round 2 - Carlton kicked 5.4 to our 0.2 in about 20 minutes of play either side of half time

Round 3 - Geelong kicked 5 in a row in about 7 minutes of play either side of three quarter time

Round 4 - Fremantle kicked 8 in a row from the half-time siren to the end of the third quarter

Round 5 - Richmond kicked the last 5 goals in the final quarter in about 15 minutes.

Round 6 - the only game so far where our opponent hasn't had a run of goals (the first half was too low quality for either side to do it)

Round 7 - Hawthorn kicked the last 4 goals of the first quarter in about 15 minutes.

In all four of our losses we lost by less than the score kicked during this period of being "off".

It seems to me that we are spending more of the game playing better than our opponent than we do playing worse but we don't convert the periods of dominance whilst we let our opponent convert their periods of dominance into scores.

The optimist says if we work on lowering the time spent "off" during a game, the wins will flow.

The pessimist says we've had this same problem for years and we still, despite setting ourselves for finals this year, cannot get through games without these small periods which ruin what is usually otherwise 2 or 3 or 3.5 quarters of strong football.

The positive for me is that we are also kicking bursts of goals against the opposition and dominating large parts of games against all opposition teams we play. 

The lapses are frustrating but I think part of having such a young side, Goodwin needs to address this hard and fast during the week . 

I think we need to work on defensive talk, we don't need four blokes flying for the same ball when the opposition stays down 

and we need to lower our eyes going forward and we should impact the scoreboard far more in our periods of dominance 

[poita 3,874]

9 hours ago, davo said:

It's all down to inexperience, we have 10-12 players each week with less than 30 games, these flat spots are costing us games, we're 3-4 when we could easily be 6-1. Goodwin has to get on top of this now!!!

Yet some of our most experienced players are the biggest culprits. Jones' first quarter was appalling, fumbles and turnovers galore. Vince had lots of touches for no impact. Lewis arguably the same. Nobody makes a statement with a big tackle or block. They just run round calling for cheap handpasses while Oliver and Viney get their hands dirty.

[The heart beats true 17,809]

This is a leadership issue.

If I was an experienced player (100 games) I'd be expecting a meeting with the coach this week.

Part of it is actually having confidence in your team mates when the game is swinging away from us. In the backline we don't believe we can get the job done in the air and too many fly. In the midfield too many crash in and if the ball pops out we aren't covered on the outside well enough (or if we come up with it we handball it 2 meters because not enough players are outside the contest).

It's difficult to coach for, it has to be managed on the ground. Maintain structure, maintain confidence in the guy next to you to do the hard stuff.

The 2 things you need from leaders is faith and composure. Lewis should have 3 more games of experience with this team than he does, Vince feels like he's treading water, and Jones was horrible with ball in hand on the weekend. They all deserve a rocket in my opinion.

[Little Richard 6,216]

8 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

This is a leadership issue.

If I was an experienced player (100 games) I'd be expecting a meeting with the coach this week.

Part of it is actually having confidence in your team mates when the game is swinging away from us. In the backline we don't believe we can get the job done in the air and too many fly. In the midfield too many crash in and if the ball pops out we aren't covered on the outside well enough (or if we come up with it we handball it 2 meters because not enough players are outside the contest).

It's difficult to coach for, it has to be managed on the ground. Maintain structure, maintain confidence in the guy next to you to do the hard stuff.

The 2 things you need from leaders is faith and composure. Lewis should have 3 more games of experience with this team than he does, Vince feels like he's treading water, and Jones was horrible with ball in hand on the weekend. They all deserve a rocket in my opinion.

Totally a leadership issue. I remember a couple of years ago listening to Jones speak to someone about momentum in a game, and that it takes a bit of experience to know when the momentum is shifting and how to combat that. He said it was up to the leaders like himself to take charge and stop an opposition run or wrest momentum back, and that they were working hard on that.

They better still be working on it because it's the same old [censored] where no one stands up to take control back (except for Viney yesterday).

[Dockett 32 1,237]

11 hours ago, davo said:

It's all down to inexperience, we have 10-12 players each week with less than 30 games, these flat spots are costing us games, we're 3-4 when we could easily be 6-1. Goodwin has to get on top of this now!!!

About time all the boys begin playing like men. Oliver and Hunt are!

[beelzebub 23,198]

snooze..... you lose !!

[jackaub 1,402]

1 hour ago, The heart beats true said:

This is a leadership issue.

If I was an experienced player (100 games) I'd be expecting a meeting with the coach this week.

Part of it is actually having confidence in your team mates when the game is swinging away from us. In the backline we don't believe we can get the job done in the air and too many fly. In the midfield too many crash in and if the ball pops out we aren't covered on the outside well enough (or if we come up with it we handball it 2 meters because not enough players are outside the contest).

It's difficult to coach for, it has to be managed on the ground. Maintain structure, maintain confidence in the guy next to you to do the hard stuff.

The 2 things you need from leaders is faith and composure. Lewis should have 3 more games of experience with this team than he does, Vince feels like he's treading water, and Jones was horrible with ball in hand on the weekend. They all deserve a rocket in my opinion.

In an earlier life I was captain of a football side and had some leadership ability in others opinion

in one particular year i won B&F because i played my natural game and trusted those around me to do the same They did and it worked and we won many games. The next year I was promoted beyond my years and had to play in a completely different side. Early in the season I worked out our on ballers were not working hard enough and we were getting smashed at the ball. Lack of skill and attitude contributed

Try as I might I couldnt stop myself assisting and played tighter on ball than I ever previously had.

I didnt trust them to do their asigned jobs. My output suffered as a result and i neglected parts of my game also.Leadership suffered

So when we talk about leadership and trust on the field it is much more difficult than I ever thought. It was almost impossible to keep to structures and ignore the temptation to do somebody elses' job. I think Jones suffers from this to a degree

But its the lack of trust that undermines good leadership and sticking to structures

Edited May 8, 2017 by jackaub

[beelzebub 23,198]

1 hour ago, jackaub said:

In an earlier life I was captain of a football side and had some leadership ability in others opinion

in one particular year i won B&F because i played my natural game and trusted those around me to do the same They did and it worked and we won many games. The next year I was promoted beyond my years and had to play in a completely different side. Early in the season I worked out our on ballers were not working hard enough and we were getting smashed at the ball. Lack of skill and attitude contributed

Try as I might I couldnt stop myself assisting and played tighter on ball than I ever previously had.

I didnt trust them to do their asigned jobs. My output suffered as a result and i neglected parts of my game also.Leadership suffered

So when we talk about leadership and trust on the field it is much more difficult than I ever thought. It was almost impossible to keep to structures and ignore the temptation to do somebody elses' job. I think Jones suffers from this to a degree

But its the lack of trust that undermines good leadership and sticking to structures

Think this ring bells.

Still see it with us where leads etc aren't honoured.  Some strange passages at times suggest this trust issue might be a reality.

[demoniac 1,295]

2 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Think this ring bells.

Still see it with us where leads etc aren't honoured.  Some strange passages at times suggest this trust issue might be a reality.

Jones certainly honoured Frawley's lead on Sunday.

[titan_uranus 24,628]

Having reflected further, I think there is enough evidence to argue that in all seven games we've played so far, we've been better than our opponent for longer than we've been worse than them.

To only have 3 wins in those circumstances is remarkable, really.

I'm currently leaning towards the off periods being brought about by inexperience, not just in terms of age but also in terms of games played together. Too much chopping and changing the team this year (have we had a week with any fewer than two changes to the side?) is not helping.

[titan_uranus 24,628]

There's been some post-mortem talk about our lapses and inability to play four quarters all season. Updating this list for the full slate of 22 games:

 

Round 1 - St Kilda kicked 5 in a row in the last 15 minutes of the first quarter.

Round 2 - Carlton kicked 5.4 to our 0.2 in about 20 minutes of play either side of half time

Round 3 - Geelong kicked 5 in a row in about 7 minutes of play either side of three quarter time (Loss)

Round 4 - Fremantle kicked 8 in a row from the half-time siren to the end of the third quarter (Loss)

Round 5 - Richmond kicked the last 5 goals in the final quarter in about 15 minutes (Loss)

Round 6 - none (the first half was too low quality for either side to do it)

Round 7 - Hawthorn kicked the last 4 goals of the first quarter in about 15 minutes (Loss)

Round 8 - Adelaide kicked the first 5 goals of the second quarter in about 15 minutes 

Round 9 - North kicked the first 3 goals of the game in about 10 minutes and also kicked 3.4 in the first 19 minutes of the third quarter to our 0.0 (Loss)

Round 10 - none really (GC did kick 3 in a row in the second quarter)

Round 12 - Collingwood kicked 6 in a row in the second quarter in about 15 minutes

Round 13 - none (we beat the Dogs by nearly 10 goals)

Round 14 - WC kicked 3 goals in 4 minutes to end the third quarter and kicked the first of the fourth

Round 15 - the second quarter (Sydney kicked 4.7 to our 0.1) (Loss)

Round 16 - Carlton kicked the first 3 goals of the game and also kicked the first 3 goals of the final quarter in 6 minutes

Round 17 - Adelaide kicked the last 6 goals of the first quarter (Loss)

Round 18 - none really (Port did twice kick 2 quick goals to keep themselves in it (end of the second quarter and start of the fourth))

Round 19 - North kicked 3 goals in 7 minutes in the first quarter and also 3 goals in 4 minutes to jump-start the third quarter (Loss)

Round 20 - GWS kicked 8 straight goals in 16 minutes in that horrid first quarter (Loss)

Round 21 - St Kilda kicked 4.7 to 1.3 in the third quarter, including 3 goals in 3 minutes

Round 22 - Brisbane kicked 4 goals in 9 minutes in the fourth quarter

Round 23 - the first quarter from hell (Collingwood kicked 6.5 to our 1.3) (Loss)

 

In every single one of our losses, and nearly every win as well, there was a period we just seemed to switch off and let our opponent score heavily, and quickly. The North games were the only losses we had where we didn't concede 4 straight goals but given they were a bottom 4 side that hardly makes much difference.

Only the Essendon and Dogs games really didn't have our opponent blowing us away at any point (and they were two of our three largest wins for the year, which is no coincidence). 

[deanox 9,662]

So as much as I hate this, having a trend like this is a great thing when analysing how we can improve next year. 

 

There are 20 examples of 10-20 minutes in length we need to focus on.

 

Based on your numbers, ~100 goals were kicked in those lapses. That's about 1/3 of all scores against us this year. All of that came in ~300 minutes, or 10 quarters. That's out of 88 quarters. 

So 33% of scores against came in ~11% of game time. 

We improve that by 20% and we win 3-4 more games and finish in the top 4.

[Sir Why You Little 36,644]

Fairly damming when you see it written Round by Round...

[deelete my account 1,194]

Is the Roos rebuild over? Of course not, we still need to upgrade and bring in youth and experience across the board and drop youth and experience across the board - tinkering until it clicks. Not until we go deep in September will we need a few 'minor' list adjustments.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Wrecked Owl Dees Function

[beelzebub 23,198]

On 08/05/2017 at 1:00 AM, davo said:

It's all down to inexperience, we have 10-12 players each week with less than 30 games, these flat spots are costing us games, we're 3-4 when we could easily be 6-1. Goodwin has to get on top of this now!!!

Collingwood says hi 

They were younger, less experienced and mentally "on"

These brief periods often exten to quarters but be dont do ourselves any favours when we have those "footy naps" .

This is all about coaching.

[Coq au vin 755]

On 08/05/2017 at 6:22 PM, demoniac said:

Jones certainly honoured Frawley's lead on Sunday.

He's a major turnover merchant.

[beelzebub 23,198]

1 hour ago, Diamond said:

He's a major turnover merchant.

Unfortunately i agree. Especially earlier in games until he finds his game-rhythm. 

So much good work made redundant. Not isolated occurrences.