OSCAR McDONALD

[Moonshadow 17,676]

And maybe some are saying he should play a mix of AFL and VFL but that our tall back stocks make that unlikely ATM, especially given Dunn's hammy.

I was pleased to see Frost played in the backline against Hawthorn. Perhaps that will see OMac get a gig at Casey soon. I would prefer Dunn or Garland not part of our back 6 in the future, but that's not going to happen.

And it's also great to read Hurley is signed on with us. Thanks for the news Deespicable Me. 

[Jaded No More 68,915]

On 6/5/2016 at 0:23 PM, Axis of Bob said:

I haven't read the to and fro of the last page, but the Oscar vs Weideman thing is ridiculous.

Oscar is a second year defender who had consistently performed well in the VFL for the past season. He has shown ability in the AFL before, fills a need as a mobile zoning key defender and his will improve filling that role at AFL level. He is replacing someone who is clearly struggling with the new game plan.

Weideman is a first year player who is coming off a limited preseason, and barely played at all last year due to injury. He has shown good signs at VFL level, but no more than that. Currently he'd be filling the role of Watts, who is performing well at AFL level.

The argument is ridiculous.

Agreed.

We don't need to rush Weideman. Who would he even replace in the side? He isn't a Dawes or Pedersen replacement, and the last thing we need is even more inexperience. As it is our inexperience leads to a lack of composure which has cost us games this season (North, Hawks to name a few). 

Oscar McDonald is filling a role that we currently don't have a better alternative for. Yes people will scream for Dunn, but Dunn can't zone off, he doesn't understand two-way running and isn't even tall enough to play on many of today's key forwards. 

We need to keep developing players in every area of the ground. When Garland and Dunn play everybody screams that they are no good and belong to the old culture of losing. So we try to bring in new players, and then everybody screams that they aren't ready. 

When do people suggest we give these guys experience? When we are trying to make top 4? When we are in contention for a flag? The time is now. We are improving slowly and building, but finals are probably unrealistic. This is the perfect time, with a new coach coming in next season and an adjusted game plan, to develop these players. 
Funny I don't see many people calling for Hunt and Wagner to go back to the VFL, although they leak probably as many goals every week, playing on lesser opponents. 
People see what they want to see, and Oscar bashing seems the flavour of the month. 

He is so raw, yes, but he is no worse than his brother or Frawley was at this stage of their career. We have two choices; play him and see if he cuts it with more experience (if he doesn't we don't need to waste list space on him going forward), or let him go back to the VFL where he dominates and live under an illusion that he will be great one day by some miracle despite getting no AFL exposure. 

[old55 23,574]

4 hours ago, deespicable me said:

TMac will be going unless he signs for unders, we've got Hurley signed up and he and Milkshake will take young Oscar under their wing and next year we will see a bigger, faster, stronger and better tanned young beast than ever you've seen. 

Goodwin has got this, just relax. And if you can't we have something for that as well.

Quote

 

We can't pay Hurley what he would like and expect to keep our team together. I almost think it's too late for any big name players to join us on big coin. O'Meara, Prestia, even Brown from Collingwood would probably be too expensive. There will be too many demands by our players as they start to get highly rated within the comp already. Gawn and Viney will become top 50 players this year and in two years time we will probably have 6 - 8 in there.

We need to find a player like Hombsh or a young Ted Richards. Cheap and under the radar when they come across but have always been good value to their clubs.

 

 

[What 18,810]

4 hours ago, deespicable me said:

TMac will be going unless he signs for unders, we've got Hurley signed up and he and Milkshake will take young Oscar under their wing and next year we will see a bigger, faster, stronger and better tanned young beast than ever you've seen. 

Goodwin has got this, just relax. And if you can't we have something for that as well.

Dont play with our emotions 

[H_T 3,047]

On 6/3/2016 at 7:26 PM, Wiseblood said:

Will become a 6 time AA, 3 time premiership and 250 game player for the MFC.

Calling it early.

3 time? Is that all? Damn it.

 

On 6/5/2016 at 10:52 AM, mauriesy said:

There is another group here that believes getting some games into quality but inexperienced kids is better in the long term than playing experienced but average players in the short term.

It's got nothing to do with 'not wanting to win', or 'reverting to Mark Neeld or Dean Bailey', or 'mediocrity', or 'accepting losing'. It's got everything to do with building a solid playing group in the next few years, when our real chance for a premiership occurs (which let's face it won't be in 2016 or probably 2017). Like everyone, I'd like to play finals this year, but I still have my sights set on future ambitions. I don't want to be Richmond and become a shooting star, only to have it all crash down to earth because of delusions about progress and the state of the list.

Short-term pain for long-term gain.

 

On 6/5/2016 at 11:18 AM, mauriesy said:

You've heard it plenty of times before, but it doesn't make it any less true.

When you see figures like Melbourne's total list experience being 2268* games as opposed to Hawthorn's 3377* or North Melbourne's 3993*, or Melbourne's average age being 22.3 years and games played 30, do really think we can just get up there and match it with other teams? It's a process that will still take time.

Impatience leads to rash decisions and reliance on old structures and habits, not building a solid foundation, which is what the coaching staff are trying to do. 

The difference in the past has been the quality of the list. I bleieve the quality now exists and is a quantum leap over a few years ago, but the experience doesn't. I want to follow the Bulldogs and the Giants into the finals for sustained results, not have another false dawn, take shortcuts and end up like the Tigers.

We will pass teams like Hawthorn on the way up soon enough, but continual negativity about not winning and the mistakes made by young players, rather than positivity about making progress, doesn't help.

Maybe the 'veil of negativity' is yet to be really lifted.

* Total list experience at the start of 2016

Agree on all counts.

And the McDonald/Weidemann argument is indeed ridiculous, and well explained by AoB.

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

For those criticising Oscar this is from the mfc website vs Hawks:

"Big O building - In just his sixth AFL match, 20-year-old emerging defender Oscar McDonald had a personal-best 22 disposals – Melbourne’s fourth highest ball-winner for the match".

If I recall his DE was 70% - yes I know DE isn't everything but 70% sure ain't bad when your disposal is 4th highest for the team (behind only our 3 best mids) and it is only your 6th game.  Add to that his smothers and spoils.  All against the reigning Premiers. Not only that he plays to the coaches game plan!!

What else do people want? 

He is more than holding his own.  Doubt those in the VFL that are being touted here as replacements can boast that overall performance.

[Ethan Tremblay 30,861]

3 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

For those criticising Oscar this is from the mfc website vs Hawks:

"Big O building - In just his sixth AFL match, 20-year-old emerging defender Oscar McDonald had a personal-best 22 disposals – Melbourne’s fourth highest ball-winner for the match".

If I recall his DE was 70% - yes I know DE isn't everything but 70% sure ain't bad when your disposal is 4th highest for the team (behind only our 3 best mids) and it is only your 6th game.  Add to that his smothers and spoils.  All against the reigning Premiers. Not only that he plays to the coaches game plan!!

What else do people want? 

He is more than holding his own.  Doubt those in the VFL that are being touted here as replacements can boast that overall performance.

FWIW 77% DE.

[H_T 3,047]

2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

For those criticising Oscar this is from the mfc website vs Hawks:

"Big O building - In just his sixth AFL match, 20-year-old emerging defender Oscar McDonald had a personal-best 22 disposals – Melbourne’s fourth highest ball-winner for the match".

If I recall his DE was 70% - yes I know DE isn't everything but 70% sure ain't bad when your disposal is 4th highest for the team (behind only our 3 best mids) and it is only your 6th game.  Add to that his smothers and spoils.  All against the reigning Premiers. Not only that he plays to the coaches game plan!!

What else do people want? 

He is more than holding his own.  Doubt those in the VFL that are being touted here as replacements can boast that overall performance.

Don't expect to change posters minds with this. They'll hold on tight with their beliefs despite website write-ups and FD analysis.

 

[Ethan Tremblay 30,861]

1 minute ago, H_T said:

Don't expect to change posters minds with this. They'll hold on tight with their beliefs despite website write-ups and FD analysis.

 

Confirmation bias comes to mind when I think of posters thoughts on O Macs disposal. 

[stuie 7,374]

5 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

For those criticising Oscar this is from the mfc website vs Hawks:

"Big O building - In just his sixth AFL match, 20-year-old emerging defender Oscar McDonald had a personal-best 22 disposals – Melbourne’s fourth highest ball-winner for the match".

If I recall his DE was 70% - yes I know DE isn't everything but 70% sure ain't bad when your disposal is 4th highest for the team (behind only our 3 best mids) and it is only your 6th game.  Add to that his smothers and spoils.  All against the reigning Premiers. Not only that he plays to the coaches game plan!!

What else do people want? 

He is more than holding his own.  Doubt those in the VFL that are being touted here as replacements can boast that overall performance.

What else do we want?! For him to not get beaten in contests.

Clutching at straws when you start posting disposal stats, especially for a defender. Frost had more touches than Jetta, must be a better defender than him then. Dawes had it more than Hogan, better drop that spud.

But hey, who are we to argue with the expert unbiased opinion of Burgo right?

 

 

[H_T 3,047]

6 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Confirmation bias comes to mind when I think of posters thoughts on O Macs disposal. 

Haters gonna hate.

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

20 minutes ago, H_T said:

Don't expect to change posters minds with this. They'll hold on tight with their beliefs despite website write-ups and FD analysis.

It is so frustrating that people won't see what is staring them in the face, H-T! 

I suspect the majority criticising Oscar were not at the game.  Maybe the TV camera's didn't capture his work rate for those that watched on TV.

But probably they are just being stubborn and now that Jack Watts is playing well Oscar is the new whipping boy who can do no right.

Will be delighted to see those KBW come back here and praise Oscar (as they now do JW) in due course.

I hope he stays in the team - his performance shows he deserves it. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by Lucifer's Hero

[Ethan Tremblay 30,861]

11 minutes ago, stuie said:

What else do we want?! For him to not get beaten in contests.

Clutching at straws when you start posting disposal stats, especially for a defender. Frost had more touches than Jetta, must be a better defender than him then. Dawes had it more than Hogan, better drop that spud.

But hey, who are we to argue with the expert unbiased opinion of Burgo right?

 

 

It was a few points on the MFC site where the club published some positives from the game.

I'm sure they talk about the negatives in house. There's enough heroes on here telling us everything O Mac does wrong, they don't need to be published on the website.

Edited June 6, 2016 by Ethan Tremblay

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Burgo never made any comparisons to other players as you did Stu. He made a statement regarding how many games he's played and how many disposals he had. 

Come on Ethan, you're smart enough to see I was responding to different things within the same post aren't you?

I'll put it separately for you....

1) I couldn't give a stuff what Burgo says in his articles. They are all fluff and are intended to sell the club. Clearly it's more than just stating things when you start saying "in just his sixth game" and "fourth highest ball-winner". Sell, sell, sell....

2) My response to "what else do you want?" Was laid out pretty plainly I thought? Bringing up disposal stats is the most shallow form of argument for form in footy. He was beaten in contests, as a defender that is more important to me than disposals. Oh, but the stats post didn't mention he also had only 2 tackles and 1 mark, would have thought that was important for a key defender. He also gave away 3 frees. or as Burgo might say, our "second highest free-kick giver awayer...."

The one thing that bugs me the most about footy sites is the "spud or star" mentality. OMac will likely get there, there's lots to work with, but throwing around things like "career best game" like I've seen in this thread is just silly.

 

[stuie 7,374]

2 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

It was a few points on the MFC site where the club published some positives from the game.

I'm sure they talk about the negatives in house. There's enough heroes on here telling us everything O Mac does wrong, they don't need to be published on the website.

My problem isn't with the article by Burgo, it's about someone bringing it up to try and use it to convince others of things they want to believe.

It's hardly a reputable source.

 

[beelzebub 23,376]

Honestly the sort of fluff  put on footy sites  is for the yeeha brigaders. All sugary rubbish.

About as real as an injury report from Misson  lol

Some easily fooled it would  seem

Try looking, works for some

Edited June 6, 2016 by beelzebub

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

Stuie and bb - were you at the game?  And if so in which part of the ground were you located?

[H_T 3,047]

10 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

It is so frustrating that people won't see what is staring them in the face, H-T! 

I suspect the majority criticising Oscar were not at the game.  Maybe the TV camera's didn't capture his work rate for those that watched on TV.

But probably they are just being stubborn and now that Jack Watts is playing well Oscar is the new whipping boy who can do no right.

Will be delighted to see those KBW come back here and praise Oscar (as they now do JW) in due course.

The kid deserves to stay in the team.

Jaded & mauriesy summed it up well on the other page of this thread with OMac. 

It is the greater picture. The FD knows what they'll get with Dunn, Grimes etc, they're finding out what they'll get with OMac. They're instilling some belief and confidence in him ATM so HE knows that he is capable and they're teaching him what he can do better and what he needs to work on. 

He's in his second year, a important year in his development. We need to mould the new look defence for 2017-20 period (and beyond). Is Dunn a part of that? Most probably not. 

Our team wasn't far off Hawthorn on the weekend and it was a good test defensively and they did ok. If our forwards functioned and performed how we'd know and like them to perform (ie. Hogan, Garlett, Dawes) we may have well won. 

The next 2 rounds are indeed huge for team performance. Collingwood in QB and Sydney. Two high pressure games. Playing one of these is worth 5 games of experience for a first year player or player with less than 10 games of experience IMO.

[stuie 7,374]

7 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Stuie and bb - were you at the game?  And if so in which part of the ground were you located?

Yes. I was in the same spot I am every game. Southern Stand end, between wing and 50, ground level. So I saw Oscar up very close for half the game, and from reasonably close the other half.

How about you?

[stuie 7,374]

3 minutes ago, H_T said:

Jaded & mauriesy summed it up well on the other page of this thread with OMac. 

It is the greater picture. The FD knows what they'll get with Dunn, Grimes etc, they're finding out what they'll get with OMac. They're instilling some belief and confidence in him ATM so HE knows that he is capable and they're teaching him what he can do better and what he needs to work on. 

He's in his second year, a important year in his development. We need to mould the new look defence for 2017-20 period (and beyond). Is Dunn a part of that? Most probably not. 

Our team wasn't far off Hawthorn on the weekend and it was a good test defensively and they did ok. If our forwards functioned and performed how we'd know and like them to perform (ie. Hogan, Garlett, Dawes) we may have well won. 

The next 2 rounds are indeed huge for team performance. Collingwood in QB and Sydney. Two high pressure games. Playing one of these is worth 5 games of experience for a first year player or player with less than 10 games of experience IMO.

I have two major problems with this.

Confidence - Not sure how playing against bigger, stronger bodies in an under siege and underperforming backline will grow his confidence.

Future - I really dislike this argument when people say "he won't be part of our premiership team" and the like. You know what? Bernie Vince won't be part of our premiership team, should we drop him too? We have to balance the development. The backline needs some experience in there for them to learn from, and they need to not be thrown in the deep end and have their confidence shot. Right now, Jetta has his hands full doing all the actual defending while OMac, Hunt and Wagner learn off TMac... Scary thought.

 

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

Just now, stuie said:

Yes. I was in the same spot I am every game. Southern Stand end, between wing and 50, ground level. So I saw Oscar up very close for half the game, and from reasonably close the other half.

How about you?

Pontsford stand, 1st level, behind the AFL members side point post - bird's eye view for 1/2 the game.  I saw Oscar do a lot of contested work: spoils, 2nd efforts etc.  It wasn't a day for marking so won't hang him for not getting many.

Maybe he was good in the 2nd and 4th qtr at Ponstford end and bad at your end...

Anyway, I'm over this to and fro.  I know you like to have the last word so post away and I'll let them go thru to the keeper...

[H_T 3,047]

Just now, stuie said:

I have two major problems with this.

Confidence - Not sure how playing against bigger, stronger bodies in an under siege and underperforming backline will grow his confidence.

Well I'm sure he gained confidence from Saturday. So I'm not sure why it would be a problem. That's progress in any language from my POV no matter which way you slice it or dice it.

 

Just now, stuie said:

Future - I really dislike this argument when people say "he won't be part of our premiership team" and the like. You know what? Bernie Vince won't be part of our premiership team, should we drop him too? We have to balance the development. The backline needs some experience in there for them to learn from, and they need to not be thrown in the deep end and have their confidence shot. Right now, Jetta has his hands full doing all the actual defending while OMac, Hunt and Wagner learn off TMac... Scary thought.

 

The way I see it, they've been developing midfield players too alongside Bernie and Jones - like they have with OMac among Garland, TMac, Jetta etc.

I don't think OMac's confidence is shot by any means so far. He had a swim on the weekend.

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Pontsford stand, 1st level, behind the AFL members side point post - bird's eye view for 1/2 the game.  I saw Oscar do a lot of contested work: spoils, 2nd efforts etc.  It wasn't a day for marking so won't hang him for not getting many.

Maybe he was good in the 2nd and 4th qtr at Ponstford end and bad at your end...

Anyway, I'm over this to and fro.  I know you like to have the last word so post away and I'll let them go thru to the keeper...

Haha yeah could be he was amazing in those quarters and terrible in the others and it balanced out....

Don't get me confused with those saying he's terrible and will never make it etc, I don't think he was terrible on Saturday, I just think he was outmaneuvered and outmuscled a lot and beaten too easily in contests, things that will happen less as he builds his strength and experience hopefully. My issue is with those trying to make out he had a great game, as from what I saw that's simply not the case. I also don't think it's wise to throw a second year KPD in the deep end and just leave him there while we take a completely different approach with every other player.

I can actually see where both sides are coming from, but for me the reality is in the grey inbetween.

[stuie 7,374]

5 minutes ago, H_T said:

Well I'm sure he gained confidence from Saturday. So I'm not sure why it would be a problem. That's progress in any language from my POV no matter which way you slice it or dice it.

 

The way I see it, they've been developing midfield players too alongside Bernie and Jones - like they have with OMac among Garland, TMac, Jetta etc.

I don't think OMac's confidence is shot by any means so far. He had a swim on the weekend.

I guess I just don't see why it should be different? We're being patient with out forwards and mids, yet we're throwing our skinny defenders out there with an out of form 23 year old to teach them. The future concerns me in that way as we've seen before what happens when we aren't patient with the kids.

 

[beelzebub 23,376]

21 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Stuie and bb - were you at the game?  And if so in which part of the ground were you located?

Accompanied an AFL into the Southern Stand. Just a smidge to the city off the wing

Would HE be better for the game ? Probably.. Were we better off ?  WHo disagrees there were to contestable arenas that were both under par. Forward pressure  and Getting out of defense cleanly.  Maybe it could be said Oscar  had less fumbles.  He's not the quickest to react ( at this level )  which always brings me to tempo. If your basics arent second nature you get lost in traffic