Delistings

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

10 hours ago, DeeZee said:

Rockliff for Garland and Dunn?

Would expect Hanley or Zorko to be thrown in as well. Surely.

 

[CP5 166]

I have little interest in Casey or their flag attempts.  All things being equal I'd be happy for them to win, but it's not hugely important to me as I follow a different team in the VFL.  I also don't believe it's critically important to the players development, although it would be nice for them. 

As far as the list goes I'll back the club on individuals, but in the main I'm a proponent of turning the list over, which is something the club has been historically poor at doing.  They've held on to ordinary players for way too long, dating back at least 15 years.

The two McDonalds were picks 53, Hunt 57, Harmes, vandenBerg, and Frost (GWS) rookies.  Jetta has most recently been a rookie and Hibberd was a pre-season draft selection.  Potentially our entire back-line for 2017 is a group of 50+ draft pick selections or rookies.

The club will know who they want to keep, but in the main keep turning the list over and back Taylor and his crew to unearth some gems.  There will come a time when there'll be room for consolidation, but in my opinion we're not there yet. 

Edited September 7, 2016 by CP5

[old55 23,323]

8 hours ago, P-man said:

As I said, I get that 55's groupings are conditional. I guess it depends on how many of those options were enacted. The sum of the parts so to speak. It also is hugely contingent on what we actually are getting in return.

I agree with your position.  I'd only trade those player to significantly improve our list.  For example if we could acquire some midfield class, a forward-ruck, retain a pick around the 2nd round (assuming ours goes for Hibberd) then I would be open to a trade of  Dunn, Garland, Kennedy-Harris, Neal-Bullen, Harmes or Wagner.  I'm definitely not interested in turning them over for picks beyond 40, I'd like to see another year development into Kennedy-Harris, Neal-Bullen, Harmes and Wagner to see what they can deliver, but if you want to bring in quality then you have to be prepared to give something.

• If ANB could get a trade for Hartlett across the line,
• if Geelong was interested in Wagner (to replace Enright) for Vardy (if we thought his body was OK), 
• if Brisbane would give their 3rd rounder 38ish for Dunn or Garland - edit: Brisbane have 28 and 47 (traded 38 to Geelong last year), maybe we could upgrade 44 into 28.

If we did bring in some midfield class and a fwd-ruck then I think M.Jones and Pedersen would be delistable.  Mitch White has played well in the VFL but he was fumbly at AFL level against St.Kilda in the extra pressure, he might make it, but with Hibberd and Melksham coming in and Salem coming back he's a long way down the HB pecking order.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Fifty-5

[Wilson7 2,648]

1 hour ago, Fifty-5 said:

I agree with your position.  I'd only trade those player to significantly improve our list.  For example if we could acquire some midfield class, a forward-ruck, retain a pick around the 2nd round (assuming ours goes for Hibberd) then I would be open to a trade of  Dunn, Garland, Kennedy-Harris, Neal-Bullen, Harmes or Wagner.  I'm definitely not interested in turning them over for picks beyond 40, I'd like to see another year development into Kennedy-Harris, Neal-Bullen, Harmes and Wagner to see what they can deliver, but if you want to bring in quality then you have to be prepared to give something.

• If ANB could get a trade for Hartlett across the line,
• if Geelong was interested in Wagner (to replace Enright) for Vardy (if we thought his body was OK), 
• if Brisbane would give their 3rd rounder 38ish for Dunn or Garland - edit: Brisbane have 28 and 47 (traded 38 to Geelong last year), maybe we could upgrade 44 into 28.

If we did bring in some midfield class and a fwd-ruck then I think M.Jones and Pedersen would be delistable.  Mitch White has played well in the VFL but he was fumbly at AFL level against St.Kilda in the extra pressure, he might make it, but with Hibberd and Melksham coming in and Salem coming back he's a long way down the HB pecking order.

I would definately give White another year on the rookie list 55.  He played well against Gold Coast, not so well against the Saints. Possibly Wagner will be elevated and Michie & King delisted leaving 3 spots if White stays. I hope he gets another year

[old55 23,323]

1 minute ago, DavidNeitz9 said:

I would definately give White another year on the rookie list 55.  He played well against Gold Coast, not so well against the Saints. Possibly Wagner will be elevated and Michie & King delisted leaving 3 spots if White stays. I hope he gets another year

I'm not against it.  I wonder about Hibberd, Hunt, Salem, Vince, Melksham, Harmes, Wagner and White all off HB. Sure 1 or 2 may be able to move into the midfield but we have Viney, Jones, Tyson, Oliver, Brayshaw, Petracca, Stretch and Vandenberg in that rotation already - not sure who they are going to force out?

[hemingway 7,615]

1 hour ago, Fifty-5 said:

I agree with your position.  I'd only trade those player to significantly improve our list.  For example if we could acquire some midfield class, a forward-ruck, retain a pick around the 2nd round (assuming ours goes for Hibberd) then I would be open to a trade of  Dunn, Garland, Kennedy-Harris, Neal-Bullen, Harmes or Wagner.  I'm definitely not interested in turning them over for picks beyond 40, I'd like to see another year development into Kennedy-Harris, Neal-Bullen, Harmes and Wagner to see what they can deliver, but if you want to bring in quality then you have to be prepared to give something.

• If ANB could get a trade for Hartlett across the line,
• if Geelong was interested in Wagner (to replace Enright) for Vardy (if we thought his body was OK), 
• if Brisbane would give their 3rd rounder 38ish for Dunn or Garland - edit: Brisbane have 28 and 47 (traded 38 to Geelong last year), maybe we could upgrade 44 into 28.

If we did bring in some midfield class and a fwd-ruck then I think M.Jones and Pedersen would be delistable.  Mitch White has played well in the VFL but he was fumbly at AFL level against St.Kilda in the extra pressure, he might make it, but with Hibberd and Melksham coming in and Salem coming back he's a long way down the HB pecking order.

If we trade Wagner or Harmes I will jump off an MCG light tower. These two guys have so much upside. More importantly, they are competitive beasts who love the contest. You don't trade these type of guys particularly after years of having a team of softies.

[Wilson7 2,648]

3 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

I'm not against it.  I wonder about Hibberd, Hunt, Salem, Vince, Melksham, Harmes, Wagner and White all off HB. Sure 1 or 2 may be able to move into the midfield but we have Viney, Jones, Tyson, Oliver, Brayshaw, Petracca, Stretch and Vandenberg in that rotation already - not sure who they are going to force out?

It;s a tough one 55. I would like to see Bernie back in the midfield, Salem as well. Our backup running defenders are Lumumba, Wagner, Matt Jones & White. Even if all of Lumumba, Wagner & Jones stay i think he's worth a spot. He could take a bit of extra time to develop, reminds me of Kyle Cheney. List changes are going to be hard this year, you could make a case for just about every player to be retained on the list this season, has not been like that for a while.

[old55 23,323]

35 minutes ago, DavidNeitz9 said:

It;s a tough one 55. I would like to see Bernie back in the midfield, Salem as well. Our backup running defenders are Lumumba, Wagner, Matt Jones & White. Even if all of Lumumba, Wagner & Jones stay i think he's worth a spot. He could take a bit of extra time to develop, reminds me of Kyle Cheney. List changes are going to be hard this year, you could make a case for just about every player to be retained on the list this season, has not been like that for a while.

Based on selection preferences, roles and VFL roles in 2016, with Bernie and Salem in the midfield as you suggest, and with Hibberd and Melksham in the back 7 this is more or less how the list looks, with the / at depth::

Tall Backs [3]: T.Mac, O.Mac, Frost / Dunn, Garland
Small Backs [4]: Jetta, (Hibberd), Hunt, Melksham / Harmes, Wagner, White, Michie, Smith, Lumumba
Ruck [1]: Gawn / Spencer, Mitch King
Mids: [9]: Viney, N. Jones, Tyson, Oliver, Brayshaw, Petracca, Stretch, Vince, Salem / Vandenberg, Bugg, M.Jones, ANB, Trengove, Grimes, Newton
Tall Fwds [3]: Hogan, Watts, Weidemann / Pedersen, Hulett, Dawes, Max King
Small fwds [2]: Kent, Garlett / Kennedy, Kennedy-Harris, Terlich

[jackaub 1,402]

Is there any news on La La Lamumba. Seen  or heard nothing other than some off hand comment that he may retire hurt.

 

[Mach5 4,767]

12 hours ago, hemingway said:

If we trade Wagner or Harmes I will jump off an MCG light tower. These two guys have so much upside. More importantly, they are competitive beasts who love the contest. You don't trade these type of guys particularly after years of having a team of softies.

 

You'd really describe Wagner in that way?

[Wrecker45 3,378]

On Saturday, September 03, 2016 at 4:37 PM, DavidNeitz9 said:

Currie is about 28 and played 6-7  games. I understand the concept and value of a depth ruckman, i think we can do better than Spencer, he's a big body that provides a contest and that's about it

Currie cemented his spot as number 1 ruckman at gold coast this year until he broke his hand in 3 different incidents and 3 different spots. Two of the breaks required surgery to repair.

Before that he was behind Goldstein in the sub era where teams stopped playing a backup ruck.

 

[Dee-licious 1,949]

On 9/7/2016 at 10:46 PM, Macca said:

Garland & Dunn would be well known players to the FD's of other clubs ... a legacy of getting better is that certain players become excess to needs and therefore become real tradable players who may bring the club a decent return.

Players want to play so it may not be the club trying to offload these types of players ... those type of players being told their chances might be limited could be the catalyst moment for those players possibly requesting a move.

A few of our younger players may become targets too ... there are obviously a number of untouchables but we may end up trading quite vigorously to offset the lack of a first round pick in the draft.

Taylor looks like he's got a real eye for talent and he may have his eye on a few players that may end up being drafted in the 2nd or 3rd round ... and if we want more draft picks in that area we'll need to trade in a clever manner. 

Trading up to picks 3 & 7 in last year's draft caught most by surprise but 3 off-seasons ago we were also creative in securing Tyson & Salem.  I expect more of the same but we'll have to make the odd tough decision to be a real player.

Even when we did the obvious in drafting Petracca & Brayshaw we used some creative thinking in the Frost trade (ANB & Oscar were drafted as a result) ... and in that same trade period we picked up Garlett at a bargain price (basically pick 61)

Another important aspect to remember is that Goodwin was coached by Blight and Blight made some tough decisions on certain players before he coached his first game for Adelaide.

I was thinking about this and if the grass is greener. We were hoping that Frost was going to fall into the PSD for us and St Kilda wasnt going to pick him up. Let's play a game of what you would prefer: 

Frost (19 for us and 5 VFL games), O Mac (17 games) and Nibbler (15) or Pick 23 (we didnt have any other picks in the draft). So for Pick 23 you can replace these three with Pat McKenna (0 games), Toby McLean (16 games), Daniel Nielson (0), Lucas Webb (16), Touk Millar (41). 

Clearly individually Touk has played the most games and had the greatest impact. but the combined of Frost + O Mac + Nibbler is much greater than Touk. Goes to show that Taylor really does know what he is doing. 

 

 

[MadAsHell 4,212]

21 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

I'm not against it.  I wonder about Hibberd, Hunt, Salem, Vince, Melksham, Harmes, Wagner and White all off HB. Sure 1 or 2 may be able to move into the midfield but we have Viney, Jones, Tyson, Oliver, Brayshaw, Petracca, Stretch and Vandenberg in that rotation already - not sure who they are going to force out?

I suspect Harmes will be moved back to Half forward and rotate through the midfied.  Think he only went to half back this year due to injuries to H & Salem, Melksham's suspension & Garland's form etc.  Vince I reckon will become our run with player in the midfield as Oliver, Brayshaw, Petracca etc start to take more responsability and touch wood Trengove gets back to full fitness.  Hunt may also be moved onto a wing, but that's TBC.

Given the above, I think White should be retained for at least one more year.  Have a read back over the Casey player reports from Plapp each week.  He seems a very big fan of White.

[Moonshadow 17,673]

On 7 September 2016 at 7:13 PM, Fingers said:

Speaking of which - if-when Grimes goes, who deserves to wear 31? 

O'Meara 

[DeeSpencer 25,384]

On 08/09/2016 at 1:25 AM, P-man said:

As I said, I get that 55's groupings are conditional. I guess it depends on how many of those options were enacted. The sum of the parts so to speak. It also is hugely contingent on what we actually are getting in return.

White's performance against Footscray doesn't do him in any harm in his quest to remain on the list, but I don't think we'd suffer too greatly from moving him on. My delistings would be Newton, Terlich, Dawes, King(R) and maybe White(R) with Lumumba retiring potentially. I agree that only one of Dunn or Garland should be traded, as trading both would be a crazy given the depth of our key defensive stocks. Out of the two I'd say keep Dunn.

I'm resigned to the fact that Grimes will likely seek greener pastures which I think is a shame as I honestly believe he has some good years ahead of him. They will probably be played at another club and so be it. I wish him luck.

With Grimes and Newton going I'd keep Michie. He has assets as a player that are undersold and he hasn't had ample opportunity at AFL level in roles that suit him. I understand I'm pretty much on my Pat Malone there and I'm okay with that.

ANB and JKH might be on the trade table but I'd want them used only as part of a deal for a certified gun in return. I believe in both being able to become quality players, ANB moreso. Harmes won't be going anywhere and I doubt Wagner will either. M Jones and Pedersen provide points of difference. Their spot would want to be filled by a player that betters them in those areas.

My underlying point is I'm obviously okay with strenghtening the list, but we are in a precarious position with the ages of the players being thrown up for delisting and trade. A lot of them are senior players in an already VERY young squad. If we are replacing these guys with speculative picks in the 50s and 60s then I'm not okay with that. We have stability and we have a Casey side about to challenge for a flag. I don't want to see that stability disrupted unnecessarily.

He's been unfortunate not to get a longer run at it but has had a few chances this year and simply isn't quick or skilled enough to play half back (or half forward) at AFL level. Given that he hasn't been picked as a midfielder for a while now and there's no sign that will change I think he's high up on the list of guys to go. 

I just don't see it with Grimes either but I guess time will tell.

[Moonshadow 17,673]

Watching the Bullies demolition of WCE last night reminded me of the important traits that can lift a team to another level. Speed, decision making, skill execution and game plan adherence. If our fringe players cannot do minimum of 3 of these I question their value, even as depth. 

Ask yourself if Michie, Grimes, Matt Jones, Newton, Terls and a number of other younger fringe players have these.

Some of them are slower than the grass growing at the G.

[Little Goffy 14,406]

Something that makes list decisions a bit difficult is that we really have developed a lot of versatility across our small/medium players. It's hard to get a fix on pecking orders when they can be continually changing what they are there to peck!

Obvious example being Neal-Bullen, Stretch, Bugg, Salem and Melksham. It's not quite clear exactly where they'll be positioned. If the midfield core group develops smoothly next year, with these five all be fighting (as well as Hunt, Wagner and Lamumba) to compete for the half-back roles? Same thing applies at the other end - Kennedy, Kent, VandenBerg, Petracca could all end up commanding a full-time midfield spot or all be primarily working across half-forward.

Add to this versatility the fact that so many of the young players are 'promising but not guaranteed', and the fickleness of youthful form, we could find that over 2017 we have four too many or four too few.

The key position deal seems a little more set. Mac, Mac, Frost down back, and Hogan, Weidemann, Watts up forward. Pederson as a swingman 'big utility' who won't be first in line for any one position, but could end up playing most games as the cover for any one of six talls! Dawes, sadly, looks thoroughly surplus to needs now, while down back where covering the risk of missing key position players is more important, both Dunn and Garland have more time left on their contracts, so the situation kind of offers its own answers.

It's almost as if the taller the players get, the clearer the situation. Max Gawn must continue to be Max Gawn. Spencer is the absolutely essential backup.

[Louie 39]

I can't believe anyone would be looking to trade ANB.  He's been here two seasons, absolutely been smashing the VFL and I don't see why he won't do the same in the big league in a season or two.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

1 minute ago, Louie said:

I can't believe anyone would be looking to trade ANB.  He's been here two seasons, absolutely been smashing the VFL and I don't see why he won't do the same in the big league in a season or two.

Because he has value and is probably surplus to needs.  Nobody dislikes him.

[Redleg 40,777]

5 hours ago, Vogon Poetry said:

Because he has value and is probably surplus to needs.  

Because we have such a great midfield?

[Adzman 2,154]

On 08/09/2016 at 0:55 PM, jackaub said:

Is there any news on La La Lamumba. Seen  or heard nothing other than some off hand comment that he may retire hurt.

 

I'm starting to think his retirement would be a good thing. I feel for the guy but for me he is the odd man out with a developing back 6 and the addition of hibberd. I can't see him getting games in 2017 or 2018 ( if his contact is as long as suggested) unless we are crippled with injuries.

[goodwindees 2,488]

La La Lumumba sums him up perfectly. When I heard that nutcase telling Tim Watson that he was struggling to overcome the loss of Mohammed Ali weeks after his death, I quickly realised why Collingwood pushed him out the door. 

Hopefully, in my lifetime, we never get so bloody bad again that we have to take other Club's damaged goods like La La & Dawes on such lucrative, long term contracts. 

[dazzledavey36 54,110]

To anyone that did go to the Best and Fairest was Lumumba actually there??

[Satyriconhome 10,675]

7 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

To anyone that did go to the Best and Fairest was Lumumba actually there??

Yes he was, had a chat to him as well

[spirit of norm smith 16,209]

Still a place for experience on the list. If Lamumba is fit and healthy, he can be valuable around September action. You need experience under pressure.  Vince, Jonesy, Lamumba provide that.