4 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Tell me how our leadership hasn't gone backwards (failed) when we lose to Essendrug and later Carlton when a spot in the 8 is still up for grabs?

i am all ears

Ears   I was thinking another part of the anatomy  part of the evolution of a club is to grow the leadership along with everything else Gawn Viney etc will be better for this year    It is all about instant gratification with some, if you take your time and learn better ways to do it the feeling of satisfaction will last longer

2 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Ears   I was thinking another part of the anatomy  part of the evolution of a club is to grow the leadership along with everything else Gawn Viney etc will be better for this year    It is all about instant gratification with some, if you take your time and learn better ways to do it the feeling of satisfaction will last longer

Instant Gratification!!!

Nothing is instant around this club

20 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Tell me how our leadership hasn't gone backwards (failed) when we lose to Essendrug and later Carlton when a spot in the 8 is still up for grabs?

i am all ears

Leadership is involved in EVERY win.  Do you want me to highlight some of our 15 losses last year that contributed to our 70 odd percentage as evidence of our poor leadership in 2015 ?

To suggest our leadership has gone backwards is utter nonsense.

6 minutes ago, CP5 said:

Leadership is involved in EVERY win.  Do you want me to highlight some of our 15 losses last year that contributed to our 70 odd percentage as evidence of our poor leadership in 2015 ?

To suggest our leadership has gone backwards is utter nonsense.

Fine so i disagree

let's see if it improves in 12 months

If we go back to what we said at the start of the season, I think most of us had this as a pass mark.  For me, I said a finish of 9-11 was acceptable, so we've come in on the bottom end of my pass range.  We dropped a couple of games that we really shouldn't have, and that would have made a big difference to our final placement, so that's bad. 

I think it's very easy to feel let down after the last two weeks.  We were all on such a big high with a run of wins and a realistic shot at eighth place.  To have the side give up that opportunity with barely a whimper was horrible.  While we met my requirements for a pass mark this  year, I still want to call it a failure because of the let-down, and because of a couple of glaring problems that have marred our games this season, such as the set shots of Hogan and Petracca (and Garlett for the matter), or our continued poor kicking into the forward 50. 

Looking at the season overall:

3 more wins

MUCH higher percentage

Made it into my ladder range

Had a sniff of finals.

Gawn is the AA ruck.

That's a pretty good year. 

On Saturday, August 27, 2016 at 7:54 PM, SaberFang said:

Let's face it, everyone else is just making up the numberd. The system is rigged.

Correct. If you get anywhere near top 6 with this rigged system if you arent one of the last decade's premiers you have done amazingly well. That's about as good as it will get apart from an expansion club who's been given so many early picks they will almost certainly snag at least one flag between them.

2 hours ago, america de cali said:

Jones's  leadership skills ain't worth a true leaders toe jam and bum cheese combined.

He certainly doesn't impact the game often enough for a leader. 

As the year has worn on, the more his game has resembled Cotchin's. He just runs around wracking up possessions that don't really hurt the opposition and IMO, his disposal all year has been ordinary.

There's no question Jones is best 22, but he's not a good leader.

1 hour ago, CP5 said:

Leadership is involved in EVERY win.  Do you want me to highlight some of our 15 losses last year that contributed to our 70 odd percentage as evidence of our poor leadership in 2015 ?

To suggest our leadership has gone backwards is utter nonsense.

It is a hard topic to debate. You could argue the difference between last year and this was due to having better players on the park rather than anything to do with leadership. 

Roos has said on a number of occasions that Nathan Jones' leadership skills have greatly improved in the past couple of years. Obviously you would take his word for that but as a spectator I didn't see any leader type actions over the past couple of weeks when playing finals were on the line. 

When Roos first took over, we eventually started to look decent in patches, eventually that grew to a quarter here, a quarter there. Further along, we started to be able to put it together for longer periods, even close to whole games.

Putting it together game after game, week after week, is the next step. Currently, I'd suggest it's a step too far for a young team. I think we'll find that when a lot of these players (from Stretch to Viney, Petracca etc.) have 7 or 8 solid pre-seasons under their belt, those tail-off losses, whether it's within games (where we can't quite bring it home, even though we're in it at 3/4 time), or across games (the last 2 weeks, especially the Carlton game) won't happen so much (or at all).

I know that for many years we've been a victim of the "just give them time" approach. But now, we have both the players and more importantly, the coaches (Goodwin, McCarthy, 3 years of Roos under their belts) to make sure that it's more than just an empty expression. Just to hear Roos hammering on about the importance of these next 8-10 weeks when the players are "off" is a big change from anything we've heard in the past.

And then along came Jones.

Small burrowing Jones,

Short kicking jones,

Handballing Jones

Along came hard working demon Jones.

He's a Goa our Nathan,but he ain't no Dangerfield.

14 minutes ago, fndee said:

Roos has said on a number of occasions that Nathan Jones' leadership skills have greatly improved in the past couple of years. Obviously you would take his word for that but as a spectator I didn't see any leader type actions over the past couple of weeks when playing finals were on the line. 

Leadership goes a lot further than what happens for the few hours each week when the players are on the field. Jones is no Luke Hodge, that's for sure, but we don't really know what he'd doing/saying off-field, or even on-field for that matter. He's no AA star, but he does give his all most of the time, and takes responsibility for what he does.

Will be interesting to see the leadership group next year. Probably too early for Brayshaw to be included, but he's another who seems to have what it takes.

42 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Correct. If you get anywhere near top 6 with this rigged system if you arent one of the last decade's premiers you have done amazingly well. That's about as good as it will get apart from an expansion club who's been given so many early picks they will almost certainly snag at least one flag between them.

In the first 16 years of the AFL, a spread of 10 teams won a premiership (in a 16 team competition).

In the last 11 years, only 5 teams have won a premiership (Hawthorn, Sydney, Geelong, West Coast and Collingwood), with 3 of these teams making up this year's top 4 - the other being the AFL funded, concession-riddled GWS, given handout after handout to ensure success. This has also resulted in an 18-team competition, making the likelihood of premiership success even smaller for clubs at the bottom.

The AFL are directly responsible for this mess. They've created it with the introduction of expansion clubs and free agency at the same time; gutting struggling clubs of their access to talent, both via an inability to access the draft's best talent for 4 successive years, and the ability for expansion clubs to take other club's players without giving anything up (essentially free agency). And all to prop-up these plastic franchises, one of which is an unmitigated disaster after 6 years, the other struggling to even hit 10,000 members. Then, to top it all off, creating a mechanism of free passage for the competitions's best players to the "successful" clubs where they don't have to sacrifice any draft assets -- this was the key pillar of an equalised draft and trade period, now left in ruins.

Their laughable "equalisation policy," basically devised and signed off by the likes of Eddie McGuire (a bit like the dunderheads in Labor having miners sign off on their laughable mining tax), has been a complete failure that made no in-roads whatsoever in helping struggling clubs actually climb the ladder and realise success.

Considering Eddie's very own team have only achieved two premierships since 1958, maybe it's dawning on him that the system is fundamentally broken now. A sad state of affairs when the Collingwood president would be more aware of the state of this competition than the incompetent moron currently in charge.

6 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Most of the kids improved Whilst our leaders went backwards. 

 

Who is going to lead these kids?

Absolutely crucial Trade and Draft Period

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so maybe I have missed discussion on this.  If so, sorry for being repetitive. But I really agree with this. However, it needs explanation.

If we look at the improvement in Watts, Hunt, Wagner, Petracca  etc... we see that it is never a single straight gradient, in which every week there is a noticeable increase in effectiveness. Rather it is a trend of growth that includes great games, avergae games and absolute shockers.  But the overall result is improved footballers. 

I honestly did not see our leaders develop their game or develop their leadership qualities in  terms of a general trend across the season. Maybe TMac did show leadership improvement. Actually, other players went past the leaders in terms of influence and effectiveness. Gawn, Watts, Viney in particular. At certain times, and definitely in the last 2 games, I felt the leadership qualities of Jones and Vince went backwards. 

We need something or someone to develop in-game leadership that does elite and inspiring acts in key moments of the game. We will win more games next year but without leadership improvement we won't win a final. 

 

Wow.... this is the Demonland I like... vitriol and delusion

I'll start by saying the attack on our captain is unwarranted and pretty poor. At least go and do some reading on what leadership is before making it a final conclusion or even try to acknowledge that consistently through out the year Jones and Vince were our only senior leaders all year.

But anywho... don't let sense get in the way of a good ol whinge sessions.

Against my better judgement of not wanting to get in to a prolonged yawn fest - I am going to stick up for Nat.. Being the only real senor body to play in the team all year, take the Burdon of the captaincy, to not be Dangerfeild or Slean or Selwood and to play in positions to fill our teams needs rather then chasing his own stats I think is a pretty solid year.

I don't see him winning the Bluey this year, and I don't know his role(s) given by the coaches but he wasn't our worst and cleaned up Ruggles in the last game as well. It's hard to make an accurate judgement on Jones as I can't say I know exactly what role he played for the majority of the year. He seemed to switch from the middle to the HBF.

Yes we finished of the season poorly, but so did Viney, Garland and a few others who were leaders as well. I don't see them being critised for poor leadership. it's hard to know exactly his impact on the boys if you're not one but N Jones doesn't deserve to be scorned for his year

 

Edited August 28, 20168 yr by Unleash Hell

2016 leadership group 

Jones 

Vince 

Viney (learning)

Tmac (learning)

Gawn (learning)

Garland (can't get a game)

2015 leadership group 

Jones

Dunn (can't get a game this year)

Grimes (can't get a game this year)

Dawes (can't get a game this year)

H (injured but has been passed by others)

Cross (retired)

2014 leadership group

Jones (only one consistently having a crack)

Grimes (was out of his depth)

Trengove (was out of his depth)

Clark (no comment)

Garland (lack of other candidates)

Frawley (had already left the building)

 

Speaks volumes about where we're currently at.

 

 

 

 

 

 

18 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Leadership goes a lot further than what happens for the few hours each week when the players are on the field. Jones is no Luke Hodge, that's for sure, but we don't really know what he'd doing/saying off-field, or even on-field for that matter. He's no AA star, but he does give his all most of the time, and takes responsibility for what he does.

Will be interesting to see the leadership group next year. Probably too early for Brayshaw to be included, but he's another who seems to have what it takes.

Absolutely agree with that. As a mere spectator it is pretty much impossible to see leadership on the field aside from the overt and inspired "follow me boys" type that only a few can do. Nathan and the the other leaders no doubt teach, encourage and contribute to the group throughout the week but it would also be wonderful to see some dragging the team over the line stuff on occasions too.

 

Edit. Yes, way too early for Brayshaw 

Edited August 28, 20168 yr by fndee

I'd happily drop Jones and Vince at certain points next season.

38 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

Wow.... this is the Demonland I like... vitriol and delusion

I'll start by saying the attack on our captain is unwarranted and pretty poor. At least go and do some reading on what leadership is before making it a final conclusion or even try to acknowledge that consistently through out the year Jones and Vince were our only senior leaders all year.

But anywho... don't let sense get in the way of a good ol whinge sessions.

Against my better judgement of not wanting to get in to a prolonged yawn fest - I am going to stick up for Nat.. Being the only real senor body to play in the team all year, take the Burdon of the captaincy, to not be Dangerfeild or Slean or Selwood and to play in positions to fill our teams needs rather then chasing his own stats I think is a pretty solid year.

I don't see him winning the Bluey this year, and I don't know his role(s) given by the coaches but he wasn't our worst and cleaned up Ruggles in the last game as well. It's hard to make an accurate judgement on Jones as I can't say I know exactly what role he played for the majority of the year. He seemed to switch from the middle to the HBF.

Yes we finished of the season poorly, but so did Viney, Garland and a few others who were leaders as well. I don't see them being critised for poor leadership. it's hard to know exactly his impact on the boys if you're not one but N Jones doesn't deserve to be scorned for his year

 

No Attack on our captain mate,he's a great player,good captain,and his heart and soul are red and blue.

But when was the last time you saw him take the game by the scruff of the neck and bang a couple of goals,or 

do something that really lifted the team.He tries hard,all day,he's a fantastic soldier,a workaholic,but lacks the flair,

seldom does the inspirational things that actually get a team on the roll. Burden of Captaincy what are you on about?

 

On 27 August 2016 at 7:53 PM, biggestred said:

9 of last 11 flags won by the three teams that will probably finish 1 2 3.

And who will no doubt have the pick of the free agents.

Dees going ok considering

Make that 10 of the last 12 ... But Who's counting .  Afl equalisation policies working well!

Nathan Jones would the first picked in my team every week.

7 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

Nathan Jones would the first picked in my team every week.

and mine too.

1 hour ago, doc roet said:

No Attack on our captain mate,he's a great player,good captain,and his heart and soul are red and blue.

But when was the last time you saw him take the game by the scruff of the neck and bang a couple of goals,or 

do something that really lifted the team.He tries hard,all day,he's a fantastic soldier,a workaholic,but lacks the flair,

seldom does the inspirational things that actually get a team on the roll. Burden of Captaincy what are you on about?

 

I've gor no problem with your point or the discussion, i was just commenting about some statements.

I don't think anyone on our list is capable of what your asking at this stage (I've got hope one or two young blokes can step up)

I am still unsure why this makes n jones a bad captain. Do we expect him to be Selwwod or Judd to be a good captain?

I hear what you're saying though the onfeild leadership is lacking at the dees. But there is no instant fix. We have to go with what we have we cant subsitute in leaders and we have to develop our ownnwith what they have until better leaders emerge.

That's why I think (some.statements made in this thread) being critical is a bit over the top... We can only work with what we have.

Fwiw on Saturdays I did get some enjoyment of our lads taking to selqood and danger. And n jones taking out Ruggles.... at least that was something.

From the start of the game u could see the boys were off. I cant describe it but Viney juat seemed off in the centre bounces... it was a bad day all round

Edited August 28, 20168 yr by Unleash Hell

17 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

Not how I remember it being reported, I know many on Demonland decided this was the reason behind his poor form but I don't recall the club ever providing information along this line. Happy to be proven wrong if it did occur. 

From memory it was in a video interview with one of the coaches and they were discussing it. It was along the lines of 'he has been hit with this recently and it has probably been going on longer than we are aware, it took a while (a few weeks) to work out exactly what was happening but now we have we can get onto treating it.'. I'm not going to look through all the videos to prove it to you but words to that effect were said.

12 hours ago, bing181 said:

Leadership goes a lot further than what happens for the few hours each week when the players are on the field. Jones is no Luke Hodge, that's for sure, but we don't really know what he'd doing/saying off-field, or even on-field for that matter. He's no AA star, but he does give his all most of the time, and takes responsibility for what he does.

Will be interesting to see the leadership group next year. Probably too early for Brayshaw to be included, but he's another who seems to have what it takes.

Yes his disposal is even worse than Jones's.

We've had no consistency in our leadership group, i reckon it'll stay mostly the same over the next 4-5 years and should improve out of sight in that time.