Structure

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

At the centre bounces today we had no one within 40 metres of the goal in our forward line, if we win the centre clearance where are our forwards meant to lead to?

Around the ball we still have too many players go in and get it, leaving no one on the outside to receive the ball.

When we have the ball on a half back flank all of our players crowd the area down the line on the boundary, we don't use the width of the ground to create space to lead into.

I really struggle to see what our coaches are teaching our players if after two and half years of Paul Roos we have a worse structure than the Auskick kids at halftime.  This inability to maintain a strong attacking structure is one of the key reasons we tend to overuse the ball, kick sideways and backwards, continually kick under pressure and always look so indecisive with ball in hand. There needs to be a full overhaul of this part of our game if we are to improve at all, Simon Goodwin has an almighty job on his hands.

Watch Hawthorn next week effortlessly move the ball around, they will always have targets forward of the ball to kick to who in turn will have space to lead to into as they use the full width of the big MCG. They won't overcrowd the ball at stoppages and will always have a player on the outside for the quick release who can run and kick.

 

[Biffen 12,943]

Get rid of Jade Rawlings yelling at the backs-who were playing well.

That will improve our structure.

[Go the Biff 3,434]

30 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

At the centre bounces today we had no one within 40 metres of the goal in our forward line, if we win the centre clearance where are our forwards meant to lead to?

Around the ball we still have too many players go in and get it, leaving no one on the outside to receive the ball.

 

Agree. I think our forward structure has been horrid all season - including games we won.

We are just compressing the usable space into an area that's too hard for the likes of Hogan & Watts to work effectively in and which is easier for opposition to defend.

[jackaub 1,402]

Its been a problem for years

Must be addressed

Junior schoolboy football Its probably trust you dont need 4 mids diving on the one ball

 

[The heart beats true 18,128]

Clint, my take on it was that we pushed more players to the contest continually (which also impacted our ability to go forward with confidence as it allowed GCS to have a player dropped back in Jesse's space, particularly after half time). The theory would have been that we needed to win or halve the clearances given the height of their forward line on a relatively clear day. Everybody was high to push into a contest, and you could see that in our zone - we pushed up all day to get to, or create a contest. I reckon it's why we have so many bloody frustrating in tight handballs too.

Surprisingly I believe we got beaten in the clearances and contested footy yesterday - which was a real disappointment given the talent in and around that part of the ground, and the strain it put on our structure moving forward. 

[jnrmac 20,103]

I heard them say on the radio that GC had 7 fwds in the last quarter.....they nearly pinched the game, Don't recall seeing the 7 fwd set up but clearly our coaches didn't respond too quickly if that was the case

[sue 9,107]

5 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

I heard them say on the radio that GC had 7 fwds in the last quarter.....they nearly pinched the game, Don't recall seeing the 7 fwd set up but clearly our coaches didn't respond too quickly if that was the case

Roos talks about that in the press conference.

 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Good post.

I agree that we have too many players who gravitate to the contest purely out of instinct. I've banged on about the imbalance we have on our list in regards to inside/outside players.

We have too many who are purely insiders with a weakness in running power and kicking skills.

That will hopefully change over the course of the coming years but the theme at our club from day one has been to build our list up of tough ball winning machines. It's certainly what Roos loves and yes we know Grand Finals are mainly scrappy contested games of footy.

I'm just baffled that the Dogs and GWS are the only teams that have seemingly followed Hawthorn's lead in regards to injecting players with elite kicking skills and running power from all over the field but namely from the half backline through to the half forward line. 

The dogs and GWS, like Hawthorn, have a really great balance of inside/outside players through their midfield too.

The way we are building is certainly sustainable, but there are still major weakness areas that I'm hoping Goodwin will fix. 

 

 

[Deestar9 1,635]

This is the game I saw yesterday ....a young team that has had a horrendously hard 2nd half draw ....Darwin...Etihad...Perth....often on a six day break...we came up against a vastly different GC (3 wins out of 4 ) with a very impressive forward line & defence....yes Prestia & Ablett were missing but I disregard Swallow & o'meara as they haven't played) & for everyone who said they had a weak midfield ....nearly all their players are top 10 draft picks ...So back to the game....error riddled ...tired minds & bodies ...little impact from our key forward (injured) ...last week we should have won & didnt ...this week we should have won & did.....& at last we had a senior player (Watts) who dragged us over the line for a win ....that was a massive positive for me.  No nitpicking on individuals for me ...we are now seeing results from some of the lower teams that reflect the stage of the season we are at but I can't believe there are posters predicting a smashing by the Hawks who fell over the line to Carlton & weren't overly impressive....they will probably beat us (top of the ladder) but I will expect the same effort as I saw on Sunday but hopefully without the tired mistakes ....however 6 day break again

[Lucifers Hero 39,916]

One thing I regularly notice is our players in a pack try to take possession and kick or handball out nearly 100% of the time.  Then they are tackled or they put another player under pressure.  Viney, Tyson and Jones are the main culprits at always taking possession.

Other very good teams tap or kick it off the ground and always towards the forward line - their structures around the pack are set up accordingly.  We need to learn to do that and get the ball into space without taking possession.  I know young players can't learn everything at once but I hope they start to learn this before 'taking possession' becomes so instinctive that it will be difficult to 'unteach'.

[jnrmac 20,103]

9 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Good post.

I agree that we have too many players who gravitate to the contest purely out of instinct. I've banged on about the imbalance we have on our list in regards to inside/outside players.

We have too many who are purely insiders with a weakness in running power and kicking skills.

That will hopefully change over the course of the coming years but the theme at our club from day one has been to build our list up of tough ball winning machines. It's certainly what Roos loves and yes we know Grand Finals are mainly scrappy contested games of footy.

I'm just baffled that the Dogs and GWS are the only teams that have seemingly followed Hawthorn's lead in regards to injecting players with elite kicking skills and running power from all over the field but namely from the half backline through to the half forward line. 

The dogs and GWS, like Hawthorn, have a really great balance of inside/outside players through their midfield too.

The way we are building is certainly sustainable, but there are still major weakness areas that I'm hoping Goodwin will fix. 

 

 

Didn't we try that with James Strauss?

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

6 minutes ago, Deestar9 said:

This is the game I saw yesterday ....a young team that has had a horrendously hard 2nd half draw ....Darwin...Etihad...Perth....often on a six day break...we came up against a vastly different GC (3 wins out of 4 ) with a very impressive forward line & defence....yes Prestia & Ablett were missing but I disregard Swallow & o'meara as they haven't played) & for everyone who said they had a weak midfield ....nearly all their players are top 10 draft picks ...So back to the game....error riddled ...tired minds & bodies ...little impact from our key forward (injured) ...last week we should have won & didnt ...this week we should have won & did.....& at last we had a senior player (Watts) who dragged us over the line for a win ....that was a massive positive for me.  No nitpicking on individuals for me ...we are now seeing results from some of the lower teams that reflect the stage of the season we are at but I can't believe there are posters predicting a smashing by the Hawks who fell over the line to Carlton & weren't overly impressive....they will probably beat us (top of the ladder) but I will expect the same effort as I saw on Sunday but hopefully without the tired mistakes ....however 6 day break again

None of this explains our inability to set up at centre bounces in a way that will allow our forwards to kick goals.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

1 minute ago, jnrmac said:

Didn't we try that with James Strauss?

You know as well as anyone how many other problem areas the club faced during that time. The list was an absolute shambles.

Can you imagine someone like Hunt debuting during that time? He would have been played during his first or second year and would have been torched from the get-go.

Worlds apart.

There is no debating that our side majorly lack quality ball users. It's indisputable.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

17 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

One thing I regularly notice is our players in a pack try to take possession and kick or handball out nearly 100% of the time.  Then they are tackled or they put another player under pressure.  Viney, Tyson and Jones are the main culprits at always taking possession.

Other very good teams tap or kick it off the ground and always towards the forward line - their structures around the pack are set up accordingly.  We need to learn to do that and get the ball into space without taking possession.  I know young players can't learn everything at once but I hope they start to learn this before 'taking possession' becomes so instinctive that it will be difficult to 'unteach'.

In addition to this, good teams get the ball and immediately look to give themselves space with a few quick steps before trying to dispose of the ball. People keep saying Sam Mitchell is slow but his first few steps are as explosive as anyone's.

However,  having said this because their structure is so good when they get the ball they are often already in space in the first place.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Clint Bizkit

[John Crow Batty 8,871]

Would be interesting to see our forward structure if Hogan does miss this week. Last season when he missed against Geelong I thought our forward structure performed the  most effective and competent it's been for years

[Moonshadow 17,676]

3 minutes ago, america de cali said:

Would be interesting to see our forward structure if Hogan does miss this week. Last season when he missed against Geelong I thought our forward structure performed the  most effective and competent it's been for years

Would Spencer be an option to come in? He played quite well in that Geelong win last year. Two rucks, one resting in the forward line. 

 

[John Crow Batty 8,871]

3 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Would Spencer be an option to come in? He played quite well in that Geelong win last year. Two rucks, one resting in the forward line. 

 

Worth a try.  Frawley is not used to playing against beanstalks and their other tall defenders are inexperienced.

[mauriesy 7,299]

We are trying to move the ball quickly, wth the intent of getting our forwards one out. Unfortunately we overdo it, the movement is almost manic and beyond our current skill level. Either we need to slow down just a little and make better decisions, or get better at the skills to keep moving it faster. The speed is why the error level rises and why kicks and handballs miss their target..

I think this will come over the next year or two. We have so many players under 50 games who have such a lot of development left in them. I just wish supporters would be a little more patient with this team (previous years are irrelevant).

I'm totally over the nuffies who just yell out "kick it". Yes, you can overdo handball, but the aim is to keep possession and work your way out of trouble. At one stage yesterday, the crowd around me were yelling "just kick it" when we were handballing out of trouble then switching the play in the backline. The ball ended up going downfield with an overlap on the far side for a mark to Hogan (he missed). If "we'd just kicked it" it would have been to a contest with a 50% chance of losing the ball (or maybe more given they have a lot of tall marking targets who intercepted well at times), or worse still to a lone Suns player.

I can see what this side is trying to do, and it doesn't always (or often) come off. It will get better.

Edited August 1, 2016 by mauriesy

[george_on_the_outer 7,606]

45 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

None of this explains our inability to set up at centre bounces in a way that will allow our forwards to kick goals.

It's easy really.  The opposition sets up a defender 40m out, and suddenly there is no space to lead into for the forwards. 

At least with the forwards in the same location a contest is made. 

[inanunda 351]

1 minute ago, george_on_the_outer said:

It's easy really.  The opposition sets up a defender 40m out, and suddenly there is no space to lead into for the forwards. 

At least with the forwards in the same location a contest is made. 

 

Put a knee in the defenders back early and I bet you he won't stand there any longer!

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

14 minutes ago, george_on_the_outer said:

It's easy really.  The opposition sets up a defender 40m out, and suddenly there is no space to lead into for the forwards. 

At least with the forwards in the same location a contest is made. 

Our plan is to simply nullify the opposition in our own forward line?

That should win us a lot of games, reminds me of 2007 under Daniher.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Clint Bizkit

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

25 minutes ago, mauriesy said:

I'm totally over the nuffies who just yell out "kick it". Yes, you can overdo handball, but the aim is to keep possession and work your way out of trouble.

The point is, if you have the right structure then you should always have options for the player with the ball to clear it out easily. 

That's what the good teams like Sydney and Hawthorn do.

[poita 3,902]

I've said it constantly, Dawes and Hogan can't play in the same team. Hogan is getting frustrated because Dawes is camping out in his leading space, so Hogan ends up chasing kicks up the ground. That would be okay if Dawes would bother leading occasionally, but all he does is stand there and attract a crowd. If Dawes is going to play, he needs to play in the goal square and provide cover for Hogan as he leads out.

Pedersen and Hogan are a much better combination, because Pedersen is not so reliant on leading into space. Garlett is another who benefits from this, because Pedersen will at least make a contest and bring the ball to ground, whereas Dawes just falls in big heap when the pack forms around him.

As good as he has been inside 50, I think Watts' best role is starting at the 50 and leading up to the ball carrier. Being the best kick in the team, he is then more likely to hit Hogan or one of the smalls inside 50, rather than having blokes like Kent taking possession and kicking 50 metres sideways to a contest.

[The heart beats true 18,128]

8 minutes ago, poita said:

I've said it constantly, Dawes and Hogan can't play in the same team. Hogan is getting frustrated because Dawes is camping out in his leading space, so Hogan ends up chasing kicks up the ground. That would be okay if Dawes would bother leading occasionally, but all he does is stand there and attract a crowd. If Dawes is going to play, he needs to play in the goal square and provide cover for Hogan as he leads out.

I actually think with the 2 of them in the side we know that Jesse is going to get the best defender so he's working his arse off up the ground trying to burn them - but also taking away his opponents ability to go 3rd up. The shame is that Dawes isn't taking advantage of it, but I did feel like Vandenberg and Watts did yesterday. That may explain why VB seems like an automatic selection at the moment. We just need a more mobile player to come on and take Dawes role. I think the club is blooding those players quite well at Casey to be fair - they just aren't ready yet.

The idea is right, just don't have the cattle for it at the moment. 

[jnrmac 20,103]

2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

You know as well as anyone how many other problem areas the club faced during that time. The list was an absolute shambles.

Can you imagine someone like Hunt debuting during that time? He would have been played during his first or second year and would have been torched from the get-go.

Worlds apart.

There is no debating that our side majorly lack quality ball users. It's indisputable.

Not talking about any of that. Just saying that Strauss was recruited as an elite kick and we never saw it. Nothing to do with development,.

Salem's kicking is not about development. He actually is an elite kick and had that when he came to the club. Strauss was nowhere near that,.