Changes vs Freo

[rjay 24,887]

23 minutes ago, Undeeterred said:

Recognise that (1) there is no easy solution, (2) Dawes had one fairly average game, is often at least serviceable and does what we need him to do (3) we will just need to suck it up and wait for his replacements to come through and (4) Trengove ain't the answer.

 

5 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

There's no right answer with the tall forwards. Hasn't been all season. So in the slippery Darwin conditions why play any of them?

Time for Michie to have a run in the midfield. He's been the best clearance player all season at Casey. He'd still know a bit about Freo players from his time there and he's usually good with a slippery pill.

Petracca to spend more time closer to goal. Vanders to play at half forward. 

Out: Dawes
In: Michie

Dawes, Hulett and Pedersen (if fit) can all play at Casey and compete to come back in next week.

 

We can't just suck it up and Dawes is rarely serviceable.

Trengove is one that can mark the ball and kick straight...but it doesn't have to be him.

I like that 'DeeSpencer' has throw up another option that could also work.

At a point of time Kenny Hinkley realised that Lobbe was a liability, Beverage worked out that Minson was a liability and that so far this year Boyd was also a liability. They didn't suck it up, they came up with a solution...the best they could think of. Hinkley is not sitting there waiting for Ryder to return and Beverage is not waiting for Boyd to play like the $1m man...

6 minutes ago, mongrel said:

 

I definitely think Dawes has had enough games to put together consistant performances and it just isn't happening. I thought his positioning was terrible yesterday. Lead into congested, out numbered areas and second efforts were just not there.

Pederson if fit is much more dynamic and I hope he comes back in soon. 

 

His leading patterns are often poor 'mongrel', one of his party tricks is to lead away from the ball carrier forcing him to try and kick beyond a reasonable distance and creating an intercept mark.

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, DeeSpencer said:

Roos has been playing the kids since his very first game at Melbourne - JKH. 

He's been faced with the reality that so many of the senior players he inherited just haven't been up to it.

And already this year we've seen guys who were regulars in previous years in Garland and Dunn make way, just as Grimes did last year. 

Dawes might be next. I'd go without him this week, but probably have him favourite to be back in against the Saints. From then on it's 6 weeks left and if he's not performing it's the right time of the year to trial Weeds and Hulett. The only other consideration is probably Casey finals and working out who qualifies and who we'd like to have down there.

He's pretty clearly tried to set up a culture of competition for spots, and there was way more of that in the previous 2 years, this year we've gone back to the "talent" style of selection. I'm worried that it will undo a lot of the good work already done.

Garlett comes back in without doing much at VFL level. Grimes more than deserves a shot but doesn't get a game. OMac has had a couple of really poor games, still there. Some players get 1 game to prove themselves, others get half a season. It's all over the place this year.

Picking a 22 based on draft position and talent is what created this mess and we've gone back to it somewhat this year.

 

[DeeSpencer 25,477]

15 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

You cant afford to be one man down In defence (or anywhere really) In today's game. Frost would have to be the luckiest bloke In the AFL atm on recent efforts.

If they pick him again this week I will run naked around Goschs with a pair of  red socks on In protest!

 

Frost makes mistakes. But keeping Jenkins to 2 goals and limited impact when he had kicked 38 goals in 13 games before yesterday is a solid job. 

His speed and agility make him a possible defensive weapon as his gets more experience and it also means he has the ability to get out of trouble if he can just find a bit more composure. Unlike Tom McDonald who needs space to out run an opponent Frost has the speed and strength to break the lines. 

I'm not going to say he'll be a star or make it long term but what's the point of being a 6 win 8 loss team and not playing a guy with Frost's potential?

[bing181 9,194]

Pedersen is still injured/has missed a string of games and isn't a possibility. Too early for Hulett and Weidermann (who has also missed a few through injury).

Dawes had a bad day, but in the absence of a replacement ...

[rjay 24,887]

1 minute ago, stuie said:

He's pretty clearly tried to set up a culture of competition for spots, and there was way more of that in the previous 2 years, this year we've gone back to the "talent" style of selection. I'm worried that it will undo a lot of the good work already done.

Garlett comes back in without doing much at VFL level. Grimes more than deserves a shot but doesn't get a game. OMac has had a couple of really poor games, still there. Some players get 1 game to prove themselves, others get half a season. It's all over the place this year.

Picking a 22 based on draft position and talent is what created this mess and we've gone back to it somewhat this year.

 

It's a difficult one this 'stuie', I would think all the top teams really pick on talent.

You rarely if ever see Hodge or Mitchell coming back earning their place through the 2's....and a talented player like Hill gets more time to be out of form etc...

I would also bet money that if the indiscretion last week was Stringer and not Boyd then Stringer wouldn't have been suspended.

I do believe as you say it can cause some discontent and that is alway louder the further down the ladder you are.

Grimes does deserve a run, whether he gets it or not who knows...

 

[old dee 23,781]

10 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

Thought you'd chime in, od.

Still needed to protect Hogan and Watts.

He had a bad day....that's all.

Sorry to harp on jr but his good games are rare, his ok games are occasional but his bad ones are often

[brendan 3,434]

Not fussed about on field changes, but I think now is the time to get Goodwin in the coaches seat and move roosy down to the bench to speak with players as they come on and off, I think we have nothing to lose by letting goody take a bit more responsibility for rest of the year,  I would even let him do a post match press conference or 2 I think the experience will be the best thing going forward 

[Lucifers Hero 39,599]

15 minutes ago, stuie said:

He's pretty clearly tried to set up a culture of competition for spots, and there was way more of that in the previous 2 years, this year we've gone back to the "talent" style of selection. I'm worried that it will undo a lot of the good work already done.

Garlett comes back in without doing much at VFL level. Grimes more than deserves a shot but doesn't get a game. OMac has had a couple of really poor games, still there. Some players get 1 game to prove themselves, others get half a season. It's all over the place this year.

Picking a 22 based on draft position and talent is what created this mess and we've gone back to it somewhat this year.

Well, I am glad we use talent as a criteria!  Not the only criteria mind you but one of many.

As for picking on draft position.  Really?  From yesterdays team I count 3 taken top 10 (incl Hogan) another 10+ that were taken pick 45+/rookies.  Most of the rest are from other clubs.

And still on draft position.  How long did Petracca have to wait for a debut game?  Where were Oliver, Brayshaw, Trengrove, Weideman? Where did Salem go when he wasn't performing?  All top 10 picks. 

I think that last sentence is well off the mark!

Edited July 4, 2016 by Lucifer's Hero

[stuie 7,374]

2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Well, I am glad we use talent as a criteria!  Not the only criteria mind you but one of many.

As for picking on draft position.  Really?  From yesterdays team I count 3 taken top 10 (incl Hogan) another 10+ that were taken pick 45+/rookies.  Most of the rest are from other clubs.

And still on draft position.  How long did Petracca have to wait for a debut game?  Where were Oliver, Brayshaw, Trengrove, Weideman? Where did Salem go when he wasn't performing?  All top 10 picks. 

I think that last sentence is well off the mark!

Yeah maybe draft position isn't correct, but I stand by the talent part.

We've gone from building culture and aiming for finals to "playing the kids" for the future no matter how they perform (in some cases).

[DeeSpencer 25,477]

4 minutes ago, stuie said:

He's pretty clearly tried to set up a culture of competition for spots, and there was way more of that in the previous 2 years, this year we've gone back to the "talent" style of selection. I'm worried that it will undo a lot of the good work already done.

Garlett comes back in without doing much at VFL level. Grimes more than deserves a shot but doesn't get a game. OMac has had a couple of really poor games, still there. Some players get 1 game to prove themselves, others get half a season. It's all over the place this year.

Picking a 22 based on draft position and talent is what created this mess and we've gone back to it somewhat this year.

 

I'm not fully convinced of that. Garlett was a bit of special exemption, but it was right. Who else do we have on our list who's ever kicked 4 goals in a game? Watts, Hogan, Kent is that it? Hogan the only one who's kicked 40 goals in a season.

Grimes has been unlucky, but when Matt Jones is coming in ahead of you I don't think that's a choice for the future. The next 8 weeks will tell the story with Grimes but when he gets his chance I expect the coaches to be vindicated. 

Michie, ANB and Newton all got limited chances but Harmes, Vanders and Kennedy are in their spots and we aren't exactly welded on to those guys. Harmes and Kennedy in particularly received outstanding reviews for the games they were dropped for. 

Oscar's mistake prone games have also featured some very good positioning and the willingness to work off the ball. Dunn didn't do that and has had injuries. Garland, was just as bad as Oscar and last week was his only good VFL game, he even came back in after just some ordinary performances.

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, DeeSpencer said:

I'm not fully convinced of that. Garlett was a bit of special exemption, but it was right. Who else do we have on our list who's ever kicked 4 goals in a game? Watts, Hogan, Kent is that it? Hogan the only one who's kicked 40 goals in a season.

Grimes has been unlucky, but when Matt Jones is coming in ahead of you I don't think that's a choice for the future. The next 8 weeks will tell the story with Grimes but when he gets his chance I expect the coaches to be vindicated. 

Michie, ANB and Newton all got limited chances but Harmes, Vanders and Kennedy are in their spots and we aren't exactly welded on to those guys. Harmes and Kennedy in particularly received outstanding reviews for the games they were dropped for. 

Oscar's mistake prone games have also featured some very good positioning and the willingness to work off the ball. Dunn didn't do that and has had injuries. Garland, was just as bad as Oscar and last week was his only good VFL game, he even came back in after just some ordinary performances.

I'm in no way defending those players. I was glad Jeff came back in, I'm not a Grimes fan, and I really don't want Michie and Newton on our list, but I also recognize how important culture is and that for us to keep improving we need to keep having that genuine competition for spots. It's a delicate balance, but I feel like this year we've started to go with the talent and "future" angle more and more and I hope it doesn't wreck all the good work already done.

 

[DeeSpencer 25,477]

3 minutes ago, stuie said:

Yeah maybe draft position isn't correct, but I stand by the talent part.

We've gone from building culture and aiming for finals to "playing the kids" for the future no matter how they perform (in some cases).

I don't see those goals as mutually exclusive. I also think our best forward line and midfield have played almost every week. We haven't tossed out older guys to fit younger ones in, we just have very few experienced players in those parts of the ground. 

We've certainly sidelined a few older defenders, but I see that as a response to the drastic change in game style and also injuries. Had Dunn and Lumumba been fit and playing the entire preseason and on to now then they might be in the side. They were both in the side in round 3 and since then have both had injuries.

[jumbo returns 6,740]

11 minutes ago, old dee said:

Sorry to harp on jr but his good games are rare, his ok games are occasional but his bad ones are often

I know what you're saying, but he's required to play his bit.

And don't say as a statue....

He may well get dropped, but that will put enormous pressure on Hogan and Watts. Dawes commands a tall and has a role to play. I don't think he'll be out of the side this week.

[old dee 23,781]

1 minute ago, jumbo returns said:

I know what you're saying, but he's required to play his bit.

And don't say as a statue....

He may well get dropped, but that will put enormous pressure on Hogan and Watts. Dawes commands a tall and has a role to play. I don't think he'll be out of the side this week.

Sadly neither do I jr.

Next week there is no real alternative.

I hope to God Pedersen is able to resume soon.

[DeeSpencer 25,477]

1 minute ago, stuie said:

I'm in no way defending those players. I was glad Jeff came back in, I'm not a Grimes fan, and I really don't want Michie and Newton on our list, but I also recognize how important culture is and that for us to keep improving we need to keep having that genuine competition for spots. It's a delicate balance, but I feel like this year we've started to go with the talent and "future" angle more and more and I hope it doesn't wreck all the good work already done.

 

Fair point. 

I think we signalled our intentions with the leadership group of Jones, Vince, Viney, T Mc and Gawn (and Garland). The culture and leadership is focused on players who perform now, not just those who work hard.

The young players have to follow Viney and Gawn now and fortunately those 2 guys have the performance on the board to demand respect. 

The Bailey days culture of hoping young kids would learn from flawed leaders wasn't any good, but the Neeld idea that the club would somehow improve on the basis of training hard without any leaders who could show the way on field was just as bad. 

The performance of the first 5 picked probably influences the club more than performance of the last 5 picked each week as long as the fringe guys at Casey feel valued and if they're winning each week they probably aren't too upset. Grimes is the only one who has a case to feel upset.

[dtrinh 71]

Hard to see what changes we would make for next week. In general the team played fairly well with the usual suspects making costly turnovers. 

Oscar McDonald: I guess there isn't anyone else to take his position. He gets pushed off the ball too easily. Garland would be the only one to replace him but after Garlands start to the season I'm not sure he's the one. Hopefully McDonald can develop and gain some mass very quickly

Tom McDonald: defensively was pretty good taking contested marks in the backline but his kicking going forward was ridiculous. Must have kicked it into the man on the mark at least 3 times. I think one or two turned into direct goals. I guess he's not getting dropped.

Dawes: Creates some contests and I guess when he plays he does create some structure to our forward line. Only person I see replacing him is Pedo but he hasn't played for a while. 

I think the others are pretty safe at this stage. Brayshaw probably needs a few more weeks. I think Matt Jones did enough to keep Grimes out. I think Kent/ Harmes/ Kennedy did enough to stay in the team. 

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,115]

These threads are always a great check as to whether I was at a different game, whether it looked different on tv, whether I have good or bad bias against certain players or whether I know nothing about the game.

Aside from the general call for Dawes out the calls for M Jones and Billy Stretch when they run all day and made good decisions is funny.

Calls for Frost when he played on arguably the in form power forward in the comp and kept him to 5 marks and 2 goals is funny.

I would play one less tall forward (due to Dawes form) and one less tall back against Freo (as not needed) and take in more run.

Out: Dawes, O-Mac

In: Grimes, Oliver

 

[picket fence 17,056]

7 hours ago, Soidee said:

Matt Jones and Dawes out.  

Inns Grimes, Either Hullett Or Weeds , Clarry Choo Choo

Outs Dawes, O Mac, Vanderberg or Kennedy

Also I thought Matt Jones was good early!!

[Red and Bluebeard 2,083]

3 hours ago, old dee said:

Sadly neither do I jr.

Next week there is no real alternative.

I hope to God Pedersen is able to resume soon.

Bringing in Pedersen or Spenser for Dawes would mean Watts wouldn't have to ruck. That makes us look a lot better up forward IMHO.

[Demons11 6,915]

11 hours ago, Nasher said:

Honestly I think it'll be a no-change, pending injuries. The players I see in our side that could be improved upon are: Dawes, one of Frost or OMac, Bugg and possibly vandenBerg or Matt Jones.  

Dawes has never been dropped in his whole time at the MFC, so I assume the status quo will be maintained there.  Hulett may be progressing, but I don't see an urgency in bringing him until we're sure he's ready.    

We might leave out OMac (Frost is the better of the two IMO) - for who though - Garland?  I'm not against it but I don't see it as a huge improvement.

I thought Vanders stepped up in the second half when he was put on the ball; didn't get too many damaging possessions but it at least got him tackling again.  We persist, I think.  Matt Jones besides one pretty ordinary fumble was passable.

The players I see out of the side who may be considered are Lumumba, Trengove, Brayshaw, Oliver, Garland, Michie, Hulett, Grimes and Neal-Bullen.  Besides Brayshaw and Oliver, I don't see much opportunity to improve our side given the players in question and the players available to replace them. I expect the club to be as conservative as practicable with Brayshaw given the horror year he's had, and I can't see the point of playing selection ping-pong with Oliver; let him settle one way or the other.

O Mac was good again yesterday 

[monoccular 17,413]

4 hours ago, bing181 said:

Pedersen is still injured/has missed a string of games and isn't a possibility. Too early for Hulett and Weidermann (who has also missed a few through injury).

Dawes had a bad day, but in the absence of a replacement ...

Spencer????

[Tessaract 66]

Surely Max King deserves an opportunity? Can he be upgraded?

[CHF 2,720]

I like the idea of giving Spencer a run in the side instead of Dawes. this would give a good rest to Max and would ensure that we had Watts playing his position 100% of the time he is on the ground. these two rotating through the forward line would make life interesting for the freo defenders and i can imagine it would be a bigger headache when max is on the ball and drifts down there.

With the midfield, I am sure that there is a plan in place for the next few weeks to cover 6 day breaks and travel...... I am sure there is... there is isn't there?

[gOLLy 401]

I can't understand how there is no heat on N.Jones.....

His disposal has been poor for quite some time.

[goodwindees 2,488]

Having just read that some fools think Stretch should be dropped after yesterday, I'll turn off and watch the tennis.  Besides playing well, he has what we don't have much of and that's genuine leg speed.