39 minutes ago, Return to Glory said:

Did our former tunnel baller, Jack Fitzpatrick, offer more?

absolutely not

2 hours ago, Maldonboy38 said:

We could have Dawes who drops marks, with the ball tumbling along the ground for oppositon backline smalls to op up.

Or, we could have Pederson who plays 5 great games a year, 5 howlers, and the remainder where we can't even remember if he plays. 

Or Frost, whose possession count is about as high as a football journalist's integrity, but he gets to a lot of contests and makes a physical impact that allows Kent, Garlett to crumb ( which happened a few times against GWS). 

Out of those three, it is Pederson for mine,  as limited as he can be. But I reckon we will see Weideman, Hulett or rookie Joel Smith slot in there by season's end. 

 

1 hour ago, nutbean said:

Just need to ask why when Dawes drops marks it goes along the ground to opposition backman to mop up but when Frost makes a physical impact and doesn't mark it allows Kent and Garlett to crumb. Are you suggesting that Dawes drop his marks to opposition advantage ?

nutbean - you beat me to the punch.  Though perhaps whilst Dawes offers a bit more physicality, Frost offers more leg speed so I guess they are not quite one for one. 

Whilst I could maybe see Weideman or Hulett getting a game by season's end, depending a bit on just how we are situated and where we are headed (and of course injuries)  I suspect (though not ever having seen him) that Smith is more of a long term project. 

If watts continues to play deeper like he did on the weekend then our fwd line is too tall, it only started functioning once pedersen went back. 

So it comes down to Pedersen v Frost v Dunn now that Oscar is out. As a fwd and backup ruck I think Pedersen has Frost covered. As a back I think Dunn is the clear choice 

4 hours ago, nutbean said:

Just need to ask why when Dawes drops marks it goes along the ground to opposition backman to mop up but when Frost makes a physical impact and doesn't mark it allows Kent and Garlett to crumb. Are you suggesting that Dawes drop his marks to opposition advantage ?

On Saturday, a number of times (Kent goal a specific example) Frost got to a contest, didn't get a possessioin but knocked the ball to another Dees player for our advantage. Dawes continually drops balls that hit his hands on the lead, bounce 20 metres away, and get swept away by the quarterback-type players from other teams. Murphy, Suckling, etc... 

Yes, I am suggesting that Dawes continually drops easy marks so badly, they end up an advantage to the opposition. I don't have video evidence, nor the ability to compile it, but I am fairly sure this is the majjor fault in his game. 

Edited March 29, 20169 yr by Maldonboy38

14 minutes ago, Maldonboy38 said:

On Saturday, a number of times (Kent goal a specific example) Frost got to a contest, didn't get a possessioin but knocked the ball to another Dees player for our advantage. Dawes continually drops balls that hit his hands on the lead, bounce 20 metres away, and get swept away by the quarterback-type players from other teams. Murphy, Suckling, etc... 

Yes, I am suggesting that Dawes continually drops easy marks so badly, they end up an advantage to the opposition. I don't have video evidence, nor the ability to compile it, but I am fairly sure this is the majjor fault in his game. 

...that he drops marks the same as Frost, but that they bounce away toward the opposition more than the ones Frost drops...

I think Frost will become an asset for us. I agree that perhaps he's being used as a 'coaching concept' player at the moment but when that's done and dusted I suspect he'll be found in his rightful niche, as a tall defender, the spot he filled at GWS when he was detected by the Demon radar brains thrust, a brains thrust now worth trusting.

Whilst Chris "Cement Hands" Dawes does spill far too many, he at least does get in the correct positions and (occasionally) bring others into the game around him.

If he manages to overcome the calf injury, it would be interesting to see how he goes with better quality delivery from our mids and half-backs.

I suspect Hogan prefers having a CHF upfield who knows what he is doing as opposed to someone like Frost who would give a headless chook a good run for his money.

19 minutes ago, Maldonboy38 said:

On Saturday, a number of times (Kent goal a specific example) Frost got to a contest, didn't get a possessioin but knocked the ball to another Dees player for our advantage. Dawes continually drops balls that hit his hands on the lead, bounce 20 metres away, and get swept away by the quarterback-type players from other teams. Murphy, Suckling, etc... 

Yes, I am suggesting that Dawes continually drops easy marks so badly, they end up an advantage to the opposition. I don't have video evidence, nor the ability to compile it, but I am fairly sure this is the majjor fault in his game. 

I'm not a Dawes fan but that is a massive exaggeration. At least Dawes can read the ball to get into position to mark. The reason why Frost was knocking the ball away from his opponent, despite being the forward, is because he's poor at reading the flight of the ball. Classic case in point was the goal which Harmes kicked from a Frost spoil.

Pederson is a far better option up forward than Frost.

7 minutes ago, mo64 said:

I'm not a Dawes fan but that is a massive exaggeration. At least Dawes can read the ball to get into position to mark. The reason why Frost was knocking the ball away from his opponent, despite being the forward, is because he's poor at reading the flight of the ball. Classic case in point was the goal which Harmes kicked from a Frost spoil.

Pederson is a far better option up forward than Frost.

In fairness to Frost his spoil was actually a smart option as he had a GWS player in front of him. He knew Harmes was front and center so his spoil set him up beautifully.

Watts, Vanders and Petracca can provide the marking and goal kicking. 

Frost can bring the defensive pressure and he found a few marks late in the game on Saturday. He's 22, played 25 career games and missed most of last year. 

I'm not saying he should be an automatic pick each week but zone defending will suit the McDonald's to a tee and if Frost can make it as a consistent forward he'll do some special things with his pace.

There's no point being a young developing team if you aren't going to roll the dice with some high risk/high reward talent!

I think the biggest threat to his spot in the team is needing Pedersen to take some of the ruck duty against teams with 2 strong rucks. McKernan goes ok as a 2nd ruck but isn't really a  true ruckman and is of similar height to Frost. So this week I'd leave Pedersen out and give Frost a go in the ruck as well as letting him loose forward. 

Vanders takes Pedersen's spot. Frost keeps his. We then bring in an extra midfielder - Stretch or Brayshaw - to fill the wing spot that Vanders was playing and isn't really suited to.

I am 50/50 on Frosty.
Love him on our list, I know he has been touted as a defender but I don't think he has the boot to be a damaging rebounding backman.
Meanwhile as someone up forward, I feel like he poses the same issue...Boot is okay, not great.
I love that he is an athlete and can pull the decoy for Hogan but how long can that last before we get figured out?

I don't really know too much about the bloke apart from what I have observed which is above stated.

If anyone can shed some more light on the bloke for me that would be great.

He's a defender. And should be used as one. 

However if he develops into a useful swingman due to being needed in other rolls then great. He hasn't set the world on fire yet, but he's putting in. I prefer to invest in what we might get from him, rather than what I know we'll get from Dawes. 

 

As for Pedo, also a useful swingman, and he's smashing bodies at the moment which I like. He stays in until he polaxes someone and misses a couple of weeks. 

Frost has that Swiss army knife quality that coaches love. I don't know where to play him, and I'm not confident in his ability to nail a key role in the side just yet.

He is worth rolling with for another 3-4 weeks to see if he finds his niche. If he doesn't Dawes probably locks down that forward role when back from his calf injury.

I'm not surprised he doesn't make many tackles. If I had the pill and he was coming at me I'd get rid of the [censored] thing ASAP, regardless of how!!

Edited March 29, 20169 yr by FireInTheBelly
Spelling

22 minutes ago, Adzman said:

Frost has that Swiss army knife quality that coaches love.

Cuts up the oranges for 3/4 time?

Agree - Frost caused a number of errant kicks from the Giants that resulted in turnovers.  Like Garlett, his defensive skills only work when the rest of the team is 'on' and playing their role - if we have everyone manned up / covered with our zone then the defenders running it out need a bit more time to assess the options and dispose of the ball. It's in these moments that Frost gets them as they don't expect someone of his size to get to them that quickly and they sh!t themselves!  If he can kick a goal or two here and there and keeps up the pressure efforts then he is more valuable than the stats would say.

15 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

The Brains Trust have got this badly wrong.  From the highlights of Frosts time at GWS he is a natural defender so put him back there.  Plus we are desperately in need of another Tall in the backline - someone to take on the 195-200 cm forwards. Lobb was virtually marking at will during the game, lucky for us his kicking was off. 

Let's say he goes back, who doesn't play then?  Can't have all of Dunn, Tmac, Frost and Garland.

16 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Frost gives us a lot of flexibility. I wouldnt overlook that. The footy department know what he is tasked with and I guess we will know when he keeps getting selected. Seems like a smart player and his come from behind punch down to Kent for a goal in the 1st was smart football.

It's only his 4th game for us....

 

I watched that passage of play again today when watching the replay of our goals, he did well after initially misreading the flight of the ball.

I can see why people think he would work better as a defender, considering he would have immense closing speed and he is a big fella, but his attributes point towards him developing well as a forward and the only way he can do this is by being given time to improve in the role.

With the way football is being played the defenders need to be able to use the ball really well, make sound decisions by hand and foot or be exceptional in their ability to intercept mark and negate. Frost moving into a key defensive post would mean we would be relying on him only to defend and the problem with this is that he becomes a liability down back. Whilst people have their issues with our defenders, Frosts deficiencies in his game will be found out much more in our back half than in our front half.
As one of the better athletes at our club, with great speed and being able to compete well in the air he can have a positive impact in our forward half in numerous ways. Firstly with pressure, as we keep setting up to create earlier turnovers, pressure from the forward half needs to be strong in order to prevent the ball going out the back, thus his speed plays an important role. He can compete well in the air and with much better smalls at the fall of the ball if he doesnt mark which is likely if it spills we can maintain possession and also prevent the intercept mark which is often a catalyst for attack. Finally with the side looking to take advantage of the turnover, his speed will provide him with the ability to get out the back of the opposition, which I think can result in him actually being an offensive threat.
He will learn to play this role better as he gets more time on the field and can be a long term option down there with Wiedman, Hogan, Watts and Frost.

I can see why people think he would work better as a defender, considering he would have immense closing speed and he is a big fella, but his attributes point towards him developing well as a forward and the only way he can do this is by being given time to improve in the role.

With the way football is being played the defenders need to be able to use the ball really well, make sound decisions by hand and foot or be exceptional in their ability to intercept mark and negate. Frost moving into a key defensive post would mean we would be relying on him only to defend and the problem with this is that he becomes a liability down back. Whilst people have their issues with our defenders, Frosts deficiencies in his game will be found out much more in our back half than in our front half.
As one of the better athletes at our club, with great speed and being able to compete well in the air he can have a positive impact in our forward half in numerous ways. Firstly with pressure, as we keep setting up to create earlier turnovers, pressure from the forward half needs to be strong in order to prevent the ball going out the back, thus his speed plays an important role. He can compete well in the air and with much better smalls at the fall of the ball if he doesnt mark which is likely if it spills we can maintain possession and also prevent the intercept mark which is often a catalyst for attack. Finally with the side looking to take advantage of the turnover, his speed will provide him with the ability to get out the back of the opposition, which I think can result in him actually being an offensive threat.
He will learn to play this role better as he gets more time on the field and can be a long term option down there with Weideman, Hogan, Watts and Frost.

Edited March 29, 20169 yr by Mad_Melbourne
weideman is a weird name

23 minutes ago, Mad_Melbourne said:

I can see why people think he would work better as a defender, considering he would have immense closing speed and he is a big fella, but his attributes point towards him developing well as a forward and the only way he can do this is by being given time to improve in the role.

With the way football is being played the defenders need to be able to use the ball really well, make sound decisions by hand and foot or be exceptional in their ability to intercept mark and negate. Frost moving into a key defensive post would mean we would be relying on him only to defend and the problem with this is that he becomes a liability down back. Whilst people have their issues with our defenders, Frosts deficiencies in his game will be found out much more in our back half than in our front half.
As one of the better athletes at our club, with great speed and being able to compete well in the air he can have a positive impact in our forward half in numerous ways. Firstly with pressure, as we keep setting up to create earlier turnovers, pressure from the forward half needs to be strong in order to prevent the ball going out the back, thus his speed plays an important role. He can compete well in the air and with much better smalls at the fall of the ball if he doesnt mark which is likely if it spills we can maintain possession and also prevent the intercept mark which is often a catalyst for attack. Finally with the side looking to take advantage of the turnover, his speed will provide him with the ability to get out the back of the opposition, which I think can result in him actually being an offensive threat.
He will learn to play this role better as he gets more time on the field and can be a long term option down there with Wiedman, Hogan, Watts and Frost.

Come on MM, don't you know that Hogan is a sook, Watts is a superstar, Tyson is a spud and Frost will never make it....? Demonland has already decided all this after the big sample size of 1 game so far this year...

 

14 hours ago, Garbo said:

If watts continues to play deeper like he did on the weekend then our fwd line is too tall, it only started functioning once pedersen went back. 

So it comes down to Pedersen v Frost v Dunn now that Oscar is out. As a fwd and backup ruck I think Pedersen has Frost covered. As a back I think Dunn is the clear choice 

How about Frost v Garland?

Edited March 29, 20169 yr by Bombay Airconditioning

Its fine to discuss Frost's role but boy there are some quick judgements around here.

4 games and he is being written off. It must be a record.

It's never black and white guys. We never have our full team on the park. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and you can't simply bin a player because he drops a mark etc. We have a limited list.

21 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Its fine to discuss Frost's role but boy there are some quick judgements around here.

4 games and he is being written off. It must be a record.

It's never black and white guys. We never have our full team on the park. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and you can't simply bin a player because he drops a mark etc. We have a limited list.

Also, Tyson is a spud, Dunn has been delisted and Watts is a superstar apparently...

21 hours ago, jackaub said:

 Our inside 50s' for at least 2 quarters were  high bombs to pack marks made it very easy for Davis et al to defend

A lot of our inside 50s during that period were actually pinpoint passes to opposition defenders.