2 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

well a lay-down misere hasn't helped us much the last few years

Unfortunately we've been the lay-down the last 7 years.

37 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Would we be better with an ace or two Kings?

Well with Gawn, Spencer and Pedesen, that would give us a full house.

4 hours ago, Good Times Grimes said:

On somewhat of a side note, I was reminded of this tackle when replying:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUG3EzY8UQE 

I remember this well. Funnily enough if you watch it to the end you will see that in the same passage of play the player he rag dolls (no.56) gets up runs on and finishes off the play by kicking the goal.

This has gone a bit off topic, but anyway, I was at a talk given by the Bulldogs recruiter Simon Dalrymple last week and he said ruckman are super hard to find. Apparently Port were willing to pay heaps for Jamar had they been given a top up player. The Bulldogs wanted a look at an 18 year old but the TAC club said that they didn't want to put their forward structure out on the eve of finals. 

It's very hard to find physical, competitive, athletic (endurance, speed and agility) and skilled big men. 

Spencer is 0/10 in skills but with a good run at it potentially better than average in the other categories. Max King has lovely skills but needs to work on the other 3 aspects. Mitch King is just a baby for a ruckman but I like his game sense and his skills are ok for an 18 year old ruck. 

I wish we had the spare cash to have an international prospect developing. Maybe it's something we will get to next year.

9 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

This has gone a bit off topic, but anyway, I was at a talk given by the Bulldogs recruiter Simon Dalrymple last week and he said ruckman are super hard to find. Apparently Port were willing to pay heaps for Jamar had they been given a top up player. The Bulldogs wanted a look at an 18 year old but the TAC club said that they didn't want to put their forward structure out on the eve of finals. 

It's very hard to find physical, competitive, athletic (endurance, speed and agility) and skilled big men. 

Spencer is 0/10 in skills but with a good run at it potentially better than average in the other categories. Max King has lovely skills but needs to work on the other 3 aspects. Mitch King is just a baby for a ruckman but I like his game sense and his skills are ok for an 18 year old ruck. 

I wish we had the spare cash to have an international prospect developing. Maybe it's something we will get to next year.

I'm quietly very excited about Max King. It may not even be justified excitement, but someone of his size with his skills is a rare thing. Strength and endurance can be developed.

1 hour ago, mo64 said:

If Spencer wasn't under contract, I reckon we would have delisted him, and rookie listed a mature aged ruckman (24yo +) from the state leagues. I'm sure that there are some out there with a better skillset than Spencer.

He signed a 2 year contract mid-season 2015 - we had every opportunity to ditch him and elected not to.

42 minutes ago, Nasher said:

He signed a 2 year contract mid-season 2015 - we had every opportunity to ditch him and elected not to.

Mid-2014 I believe is when he signed the extension.

Regardless of when he did sign an extension, I'm glad the club showed a bit of faith in him. I do enjoy watching him throw his frame around and occasionally rag doll the opposition.

He didn't have a bad game either in our win over the Cats when Hogan was out.

Edited February 22, 20169 yr by Ethan Tremblay

1 minute ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Nasher I believed he signed an extension mid-2014 at the same time as Dunn which tied him up until the end of 2016.

You're right.  My mistake.

23 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Mid-2014 I believe is when he signed the extension.

Regardless of when he did sign an extension, I'm glad the club showed a bit of faith in him. I do enjoy watching him throw his frame around and occasionally rag doll the opposition.

He didn't have a bad game either in our win over the Cats when Hogan was out.

That made sense at the time because Jamar was injury prone and nearing the end, whilst Gawn had question marks due to his injury history and lack of fitness.

Gawn is the number 1 option by the length of the Flemington straight. If Frost shows something as a 2nd ruck, I wouldn't be surprised if he and Pedersen assume ruck duties if Gawn gets injured.

 

It would cost twice Spencer's salary to bring in a mature player that's better than he is.

I'm disappointed that we didn't have a crack at Callum Sinclair though. He would have complimented Gawn and Hogan perfectly.

1 hour ago, Brayshaw Self said:

It would cost twice Spencer's salary to bring in a mature player that's better than he is.

I'm disappointed that we didn't have a crack at Callum Sinclair though. He would have complimented Gawn and Hogan perfectly.

True Sinclair would have been a good get. A ruckman who actually can take a grab up forward.

5 hours ago, daisycutter said:

well a lay-down misere hasn't helped us much the last few years

I would think it more like lie down misery. 

22 hours ago, Good Times Grimes said:

I don't see him as a list clogger in that he provides us with some very important backup. Like I said, I don't think he's a world beater, but I see his value to the club. He's a free agent this year and it will be interesting to see what the club decides to do with him.

Of course he does. But that is exclusively because we have nobody else on the list who can play a full AFL game in the Ruck. Clearly both King boys are underdeveloped and Frost and Dawes are not Ruckmen.  

It's like saying Jordie McKenzie was a valuable depth over the last few years. We had nothing else to compare him to, so of course he was valuable depth. 

 

21 hours ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

Spencer is huge, aggressive, dirt cheap and if he was required to play during the year, while not a match winner, he wouldn't be smashed in the ruck.  We have talls on our list to develop and Spencer is a bit of protection until they emerge.

The only issue is that if he and Gawn go down we're in a bit of trouble.

Surely you jest. You are reducing the role of a Ruckman and limiting the influence and importance they can have on and in a game by making a statement like that. Are you purely talking about a stoppage situation? If that's the case, yes kudos to Jake for his competitive spirit during stoppages. 

He doesn't kick goals, he doesn't take contested marks, he doesn't understand where to run as a Ruckman, he doesn't tap to advantage and he certainly doesn't limit the influence of opposition Ruckmen in these areas of the game. So in the broader context of the role of a Ruckman, he does get smashed 'in the ruck'. 

Gone are the days where Ruckmen were solely on the field to 'compete' at Ruck stoppages.

I'll deal with it this year and hope that Max King can make some inroads as a forward/ruck at VFL level. But if Gawn gets injured this year and Spencer plays any more than a handful of games on his own, we're in big trouble for the reasons I've expressed.

We don't yet have the midfield strength, forward potency or backline capability to cover for Spencer's glaringly obvious weaknesses in so many areas of the game.

If we are to improve this year and stay competitive during games, Max Gawn will be a significant contributor to it. 

Edited February 23, 20169 yr by stevethemanjordan

Id like to get excited about Max King especially when i saw him kick a bag in a practice match for the bushies. But reality is he has missed a fair chunk of this pre season and im worried that will really hinder him.

Edited February 23, 20169 yr by dazzledavey36

45 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Of course he does. But that is exclusively because we have nobody else on the list who can play a full AFL game in the Ruck. Clearly both King boys are underdeveloped and Frost and Dawes are not Ruckmen.  

It's like saying Jordie McKenzie was a valuable depth over the last few years. We had nothing else to compare him to, so of course he was valuable depth. 

Yes but it's not that simple is it?

If you want a second A grade ruckman then they need to be able to play in the best 22 along with Gawn and that means play ruck-forward.  Clearly that is a very desirable outcome - but they don't grow on trees and you have to pay heavily to get one.  Even then many prefer to be the #1 ruck option and will go to a club where they can fill that role.  It's more likely that we'll find a forward who can ruck enough to relieve Gawn - Frost, Weidemann, Max King.  That means if Gawn gets injured then we need a reasonable replacement at Casey like Spencer.

1 minute ago, Fifty-5 said:

Yes but it's not that simple is it?

If you want a second A grade ruckman then they need to be able to play in the best 22 along with Gawn and that means play ruck-forward.  Clearly that is a very desirable outcome - but they don't grow on trees and you have to pay heavily to get one.  Even then many prefer to be the #1 ruck option and will go to a club where they can fill that role.  It's more likely that we'll find a forward who can ruck enough to relieve Gawn - Frost, Weidemann, Max King.  That means if Gawn gets injured then we need a reasonable replacement at Casey like Spencer.

I'm not saying we need two A-grade Ruckmen. 

I'm saying that I wish we would have addressed this over the off-season. Especially after losing Jamar. The gap between Gawn and Spencer is enormous. Gawn is not A-grade yet. But he has the potential to be for the attributes he possesses. 

Spencer is literally a standing tree-stump. It would be nice if he provided even a little bit as an AFL backup Ruckman. But he doesn't. And he won't. 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Of course he does. But that is exclusively because we have nobody else on the list who can play a full AFL game in the Ruck. Clearly both King boys are underdeveloped and Frost and Dawes are not Ruckmen.  

It's like saying Jordie McKenzie was a valuable depth over the last few years. We had nothing else to compare him to, so of course he was valuable depth. 

I don't think we disagree about our ruck situation. I think it's inevitable that Gawn will miss at least a couple of games this year, which means Spencer's health is important so that we're not left blooding one of the Kings too early or putting Frost or Dawes in the ruck for extended periods of time. I'm sure that if King² do not come on as hoped in 2016, we'll be addressing the ruck stocks in the offseason. 

2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I'll deal with it this year and hope that Max King can make some inroads as a forward/ruck at VFL level. But if Gawn gets injured this year and Spencer plays any more than a handful of games on his own, we're in big trouble for the reasons I've expressed.

Of course it would be a big blow for us if Gawn gets injured as he's just coming into his own and will be hard to combat.

....but if it happens we don't necessarily have to go with Spencer or an underdeveloped King. The Doggies last year played a lot of footy without a recognised ruck and still played finals. There are options and it won't be the end of the world, it might also mean the Kings need to step up and with the load on them one or both just might.

2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I'm not saying we need two A-grade Ruckmen. 

I'm saying that I wish we would have addressed this over the off-season. Especially after losing Jamar. The gap between Gawn and Spencer is enormous. Gawn is not A-grade yet. But he has the potential to be for the attributes he possesses. 

Spencer is literally a standing tree-stump. It would be nice if he provided even a little bit as an AFL backup Ruckman. But he doesn't. And he won't. 

We differ on Spencer's capability - he's not a starting AFL ruckman but he's not as hopeless as you make out.  The problem is that players that are good enough to be starting AFL ruckmen are in that role and don't want to move to be Gawn's understudy.  The difference is that you think Spencer is light years off and I think he's closer than that.

2 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

Yes but it's not that simple is it?

If you want a second A grade ruckman then they need to be able to play in the best 22 along with Gawn and that means play ruck-forward.  Clearly that is a very desirable outcome - but they don't grow on trees and you have to pay heavily to get one.  Even then many prefer to be the #1 ruck option and will go to a club where they can fill that role.  It's more likely that we'll find a forward who can ruck enough to relieve Gawn - Frost, Weidemann, Max King.  That means if Gawn gets injured then we need a reasonable replacement at Casey like Spencer.

Well said.

And let's not forget that Spencer carried the ruck when we beat the Dogs early in the season and partnered Gawn in the win down at Geelong.

Clearly he's number 2 in the pecking order, but he's a capable fill in.  I also reckon his actual ruckwork is underrated and often maligned without a lot of foundation.

10 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Surely you jest. You are reducing the role of a Ruckman and limiting the influence and importance they can have on and in a game by making a statement like that. Are you purely talking about a stoppage situation? If that's the case, yes kudos to Jake for his competitive spirit during stoppages. 

He doesn't kick goals, he doesn't take contested marks, he doesn't understand where to run as a Ruckman, he doesn't tap to advantage and he certainly doesn't limit the influence of opposition Ruckmen in these areas of the game. So in the broader context of the role of a Ruckman, he does get smashed 'in the ruck'. 

Gone are the days where Ruckmen were solely on the field to 'compete' at Ruck stoppages.

No, not jesting.  

While not the ideal situation, having a big bodied ruckman who can make a contest and negate the influence of the opposition ruckman is a reasonable option should plan A be unavailable.  Jake Spencer is not anybody's first choice, but I (non-jestfully) believe that if Gawn was injured and Spencer was called up, we would not be smashed by the opposition ruckman.  However, if Spencer was delisted and we called up King instead, then we would be destroyed by the oppostion ruckman; whether it be at stoppages, forward line, backline or anywhere in between.

I think Spencer is more than adequate backup but he isn't 2nd ruck material in a best 22 lineup because he isn't mobile enough. 

Still makes him valuable on the list as you must have a ready to go ruckman should your first option become unavailable. And given Gawn's injury history, we need one more than most. 

9 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Spencer is literally a standing tree-stump. It would be nice if he provided even a little bit as an AFL backup Ruckman. But he doesn't. And he won't. 

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pg-melbourne-demons--jake-spencer

I don't think the stats back you up.  His first few games last year when he was our sole ruckman he did well and when looking at the stats remember that Gawn didn't play until round 10 last year.  Spencer was also very good against Geelong.

Your description of him as a "standing tree-stump" is insulting and clearly wrong.  I don't recall anyone saying Gawn is not clearly our first pick ruck but Spencer is a good backup.

Your assertion that he doesn't involve himself past the ruck work is not born out by his tackling stats.  He gets involved in stoppages, chases and competes.  Just for the record he had more tackles in his 7 games than Gawn did in 13.  And if you think being a negating ruck is worthless you only need to see last weeks practice match.  It was only when Spencer went off that Gawn took control and gave is mids an easy ride.

Gawn is clearly no 1 but Spencer is a worthwhile backup.

A couple of things you can say about Spencer is that firstly, despite his limitations, when he plays he gives his all and secondly, that he has the size and enough attributes to make him handy as your alternate ruckman to fill in when your main man is unavailable.

And don't underestimate the first point because the sport is littered with players with far more talent than the Jake Spencer's of this world who don't achieve  and aren't consistent because they're simply not willing to put in the effort or give 100%. We've had an abundance of those sorts of players at our club in the past decade.

My concern with Jake Spencer is that he seems to be constantly suffering different injuries which doesn't help his cause.

6 hours ago, Baghdad Bob said:

http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/pg-melbourne-demons--jake-spencer

I don't think the stats back you up.  His first few games last year when he was our sole ruckman he did well and when looking at the stats remember that Gawn didn't play until round 10 last year.  Spencer was also very good against Geelong.

Your description of him as a "standing tree-stump" is insulting and clearly wrong.  I don't recall anyone saying Gawn is not clearly our first pick ruck but Spencer is a good backup.

Your assertion that he doesn't involve himself past the ruck work is not born out by his tackling stats.  He gets involved in stoppages, chases and competes.  Just for the record he had more tackles in his 7 games than Gawn did in 13.  And if you think being a negating ruck is worthless you only need to see last weeks practice match.  It was only when Spencer went off that Gawn took control and gave is mids an easy ride.

Gawn is clearly no 1 but Spencer is a worthwhile backup.

Well stated, BB.

One thing that really pi55e5 me off is posters  labelling and listed player a 'spud' or a 'dud', and especially one who puts in 100% every time like Spencil (and Jordie McK for that matter.  Not all players are ultimately up to AFL standard, but if they get listed and make the effort it is insulting and disrespectful to vilify them.   Very few of those posting on this forum have ever been AFL (or old VFL) listed, and I doubt if you would see them vilifying our players.