Not your best work BB. The highlighted players either pre-dated the draft, were zone players, father/sons, or were part of trade deals.

you might want to back that up

pre draft ? draft goes back to 81... there was a hiatus... 83 -85 just saying

Heaps of misses with key forwards at the first round. But still:

N Riewoldt, J Riewoldt, Kennedy, Franklin, Roughead, Daniher, Lynch, Stringer, Pavlich, McCarthy, Darling, Schulz

Father son's who would've gone first round: Cloke, Hawkins, Waite

Mini draft/undrafted: Cameron, Hogan

Even if it's a 50% strike rate if you get it right you've got a great player. That's the reality with key forwards, they are either boom or bust.

If our recruiters don't rate Weideman and Curnow that's fine. But if they do I'd almost live with a bust knowing that we had a crack. They don't have to be superstars either. Taking the extra pick a year earlier, having Dawes and Pedersen who both aren't great but at least provide some depth, the extra interchange spot and mainly the Hogan factor mean we have much better development circumstances than the Lucas Cook debacle.

Add Jonno Brown as a F/S to Bris & Daniher to the F/S list.

Bound For Glory have their thoughts on the draft.

http://www.boundforglorynews.com.au/who-will-the-demons-draft/

Just for you Ben

some handy names

Decent forwards not taken in round 1 of a draft

Richard Osborne

Warren Tredrea a SA zone selection..would he have gone 1st round ? maybe...doubt it

Dermott Brereton

David Neitz

Daniel Bradshaw

Jack Riewoldt outside (the top 10 )

John Longmire

Alastair Lynch

Wayne Carey for a paltry $10000 transfer back in the day

Fraser Gehrig

Barry Hall pick 19...not first round eh

Matthew Richardson yes father /son....but would he have gone first round ?

Brendan Fevola

Peter Sumich

Matthew Lloyd

Steve Johnson

Cam Mooney

Adam Goodes

Some of those are ancient...

Hawthorn have Roughead, and Gunston.

Freo have Pavlich and Taberner? Mundy kicked 10 goals... Mayne 28 as a 188cm HF.

WCE have Kennedy and Darling.

Sydney have Franklin and Tippett.

Richmond have Riewoldt and Vickery.

NM have Petrie, Brown, and Waite.

Dogs have Stringer and Crameri. Dickson plays a great deal taller than 184cm...

Adel have Walker, Jenkins and Lynch.

Gunston, Kennedy, Franklin, Waite, and Crameri are trades/FAs at ND29, 4, 5, FS, and a Rookie.

Roughead, Pavlich, Taberner, Mundy, Mayne, Darling, Tippett, Riewoldt, Vickery, Petrie, Brown, Stringer, Dickson, Jenkins, and Lynch are 2, 4, Rookie, 19, 40, 26, 32, 13, 8, 23, 47, 5, 57, Rookie, and 13.

Run the gamut a bit there...

Also interesting how some teams trade in their talls, or get by without high end talent there.

Just wanted to say. Parish adresses our need for outside speed. While he has an inside game to. We already have 2 bull mids. Their names are Angus Brayshaw and Jack Viney

Weideman at 3 and Oliver (or best mid available) at 7 sounds fantastic.

I've got bad memories of "bruise-free football" and Jack Watts is still on the list.

Just wanted to say. Parish adresses our need for outside speed. While he has an inside game to. We already have 2 bull mids. Their names are Angus Brayshaw and Jack Viney

Not giving young Billy much credit here.

Some of those are ancient...

Hawthorn have Roughead, and Gunston.

Freo have Pavlich and Taberner? Mundy kicked 10 goals... Mayne 28 as a 188cm HF.

WCE have Kennedy and Darling.

Sydney have Franklin and Tippett.

Richmond have Riewoldt and Vickery.

NM have Petrie, Brown, and Waite.

Dogs have Stringer and Crameri. Dickson plays a great deal taller than 184cm...

Adel have Walker, Jenkins and Lynch.

Gunston, Kennedy, Franklin, Waite, and Crameri are trades/FAs at ND29, 4, 5, FS, and a Rookie.

Roughead, Pavlich, Taberner, Mundy, Mayne, Darling, Tippett, Riewoldt, Vickery, Petrie, Brown, Stringer, Dickson, Jenkins, and Lynch are 2, 4, Rookie, 19, 40, 26, 32, 13, 8, 23, 47, 5, 57, Rookie, and 13.

Run the gamut a bit there...

Also interesting how some teams trade in their talls, or get by without high end talent there.

The gamut indeed possibly but it's purpose was simply to show there are not just more yhan one way to skin a cat. Some good forwards are indeed taken as draft picks but it's no guarantee. Some very good forwards can come from a number of sources.

Indeed many positions on the paddock can be filled in a number of ways.

Roos has been wary of placing too much faith in drafts. Im inclined to agree. So as such you want to be careful of putting too much hope into it

I think in Nick Vlastuin's interview with the club, he told our recruiter's in no uncertain terms that he had no interest in playing for a club that had tanked.

Good thing he didn't end up at Carlton or Collingwood.

If you were a mid looking forward and saw Dawes there you would hardly feel inclined to bang it forward.

...anyway, appreciate your opinion on this, as you probably guessed mine is different. Be a boring forum if we all agreed on everything.

Cheers 'jnrmac'

Rjay for Dawes faults, if you have the pill you look long. You see a target you try and hit it with the pill. To suggest we sit at the bottom end of those curves because our fun mids don't think much of Dawes, well you know.

Just for you Ben

some handy names

Decent forwards not taken in round 1 of a draft

Richard Osborne

Warren Tredrea a SA zone selection..would he have gone 1st round ? maybe...doubt it

Dermott Brereton

David Neitz

Daniel Bradshaw

Jack Riewoldt outside (the top 10 )

John Longmire

Alastair Lynch

Wayne Carey for a paltry $10000 transfer back in the day

Fraser Gehrig

Barry Hall pick 19...not first round eh

Matthew Richardson yes father /son....but would he have gone first round ?

Brendan Fevola

Peter Sumich

Matthew Lloyd

Steve Johnson

Cam Mooney

Adam Goodes

That list is awful. It doesn't support your point at all because your have been disingenuous with which names you included.

For example you included Matthew Richardson, a father son prospect who was 197cm, ran like the wind, and took 21 marks in a single Teal Cup match! You also included midfield/forward Stevie J, Matthew Lloyd, who was a 16 year old pre selection and was considered to be the 2nd best 16 year old in the country behind Steven King, Fraser Gehrig (who was a first round selection), Sumich (a WA pre selection), Carey and Longmire (NSW 16 year old zone selections .... drafted in the 1980s!), Tredrea (ha!), zone selections Neitz and Brereton, Richard #^*#ing Osborne (a 182cm small forward/midfielder recruited in an era without drafts in 1981!!!), Alistair Lynch (drafted in the first draft pick in 1986, when nobody knew how to draft).

The only names you could use to argue your point are Daniel Bradshaw, Cam Mooney, Brendan Fevola and Adam Goodes (whose draft placing was artificially low given that clubs could only draft one 17 year old at the time, but I grant you that he wouldn't have been a first rounder).

Four names, two of whom were 'workmanlike', one was a nutcase and the other a superstar.

Edited November 19, 20159 yr by Axis of Bob

Just wanted to say. Parish adresses our need for outside speed. While he has an inside game to. We already have 2 bull mids. Their names are Angus Brayshaw and Jack Viney

Parish isn't quick. He'd give class on the outside. Intelligent runner, yes, and a quality ball user, but he hasn't got high end speed on the outside.

Gary Buckenaras Phantom Draft is up on HeraldSun, but need to be a subscriber to access.

Anybody a subscriber that can post his Phantom Draft?

BUCKENARAS PHANTOM DRAFT TOP 30

1. Carlton Jacob Weitering

Defender, 195cm, 91kg, Dandenong Stingrays/Mt Eliza/The Peninsula School

Gary Buckenara says: This is a really important pick for the Blues and it will deliver a key-position defender in Weitering who can also play a forward role. He will predominantly be that key defender and should play senior footy in 2016. Hes a potential captain.

2. Brisbane Lions Josh Schache

Forward, 199cm, 96kg, Murray Bushrangers/Seymour

Buckenara says: Schache will be a really good pick for Brisbane because hes exactly what they need hes exactly what every club needs because this type of player is so hard to find. Hes a forward/ruckman with agility, reasonable pace and a reasonable leap to be able to go into the ruck when needed. Hes a beautiful kick on goal and hardly ever misses inside 50.

3. Melbourne Darcy Parish

Midfielder, 181cm, 74kg, Geelong Falcons/Winchelsea

Buckenara says: Melbourne could bid for Swans Academy midfielder Callum Mills but I think theyll go straight for Darcy Parish instead. Parish to me is the quality midfielder of this years draft pool. Hes got good pace, can win his own footy, is a good decision-maker and kicks the ball very well. Even though Melbourne has a lot of midfielders already, hes the type of player who has proven in the Under-18s he can play a defensive role behind the footy and be a smart set-up player or go into the midfield and play as a ball-winner with pace and outside run.

Draft hopeful Darcy Parish. Picture: Peter Ristevski

4. Sydney Swans Callum Mills

Midfielder, 186cm, 80kg, Sydney Swans Academy/North Shore

Buckenara says: An in and under midfielder, Mills is a competitive animal who is super fit, dedicated, has an elite kick and is a potential captain material down the track. Hes a class act.

*I expect Essendon to bid for Swans Academy player Callum Mills and the Swans will match it by using a combination of draft picks that equal pick 4.

5. Essendon Aaron Francis

Forward/defender, 191cm, 92kg, West Adelaide/Woxton North

Buckenara says: Francis is a bit of a Josh Gibson type. Hes a tall defender who can come third man in because he reads the play really well but can also go forward and take a mark and kick a goal. Potentially, he could be a bigger-bodied midfielder, so hes very adaptable in where he can play. There are question marks on his endurance, so I suspect hell play a defensive third-man role given the Bombers lost Jake Carlisle.

6. GWS Giants Jacob Hopper

Midfielder, 187cm, 88kg, GWS Academy/North Ballarat

Buckenara says: Hopper is very similar to Mills but probably needs to work on his kicking a little bit. Hes a competitive in-and-under player who makes good decisions with the ball.

*I also expect the Bombers to bid for Jacob Hopper and the Swans will match it again by using a combination of draft picks that equal pick 6.

7. Essendon Charlie Curnow

Forward/midfielder, 191cm, 95kg, Geelong Falcons/Torquay

Buckenara says: For the size factor I think the Bombers should go with Curnow. He can be a power forward but because hes so athletic he can also play as a big-bodied midfielder and win the ball a bit, just like Jarryd Roughead. He can actually also do what Roughead does and thats go into the ruck, but he can also go in and not ruck but win clearances. To me, that fits a need at Essendon. When the key-position players are there, its very hard not to pick them instead of midfielders because its a bit easier to find them.

Charlie Curnow at Jan Juc beach. Picture: Nigel Hallett

8. GWS Giants Matthew Kennedy

Midfielder, 187cm, 88kg, GWS Academy/Collingullie

Buckenara says: A nice size, Kennedy can play as a high half-forward. Hes very clever, reads the play well, has a great pair of hands, makes good decisions and is a beautiful kick..

*I expect the Suns to bid for GWS Academy player Matthew Kennedy and the Giants will match it by using a combination of draft picks that equal pick 8.

9. Gold Coast Sam Weideman

Forward, 196cm, 94kg, Eastern Ranges/Vermont

Buckenara says: Sam has been injured but I liken him to a young Matthew Pavlich. He has very similar traits to Pavlich in that he competes really well, kick the ball well, hes very athletic, is a nice size and is a potential key-position player. He does need to put a bit more of a body on and needs to get his injuries right, but hed be a good fit. When the key-position players are there, clubs would be mad to bypass them.

10. Melbourne Kieran Collins

Defender, 194cm, 100kg, Dandenong Stingrays/Langwarrin/Haileybury College

Buckenara says: Given that Melbourne gets Parish at pick 3, Id go Collins here even though a lot of people have him going a bit further down the order. I still think hes going to be a beauty as a key defender. Hes a Brian Lake type, hes going to be a really big, strong man down back who is able to play on those strong forwards like Tom Hawkins. Sometimes its hard to find guys who are capable on playing on those big forwards, so when youve got a guy like Collins, who makes good decisions with the footy, is a good kick, reads the play quite well, hed be an excellent pick and good fit for what Melbourne needs.

Kieran Collins had an outstanding year as a key defender. Picture: Colleen Petch

11. Carlton Darcy Tucker

Half-back, 184cm, 80kg, North Ballarat/Horsham Saints

Buckenara says: Tucker is a beautiful left-foot kick, he has good endurance, reasonable pace, makes good decisions with the footy and adds a touch of class. Hes a bit of a ball carrier hes not afraid to take players on. Hes actually not too dissimilar to Kade Simpson and the Blues need another player like that. Hes also potential captain material going forward.

12. Adelaide Wayne Milera

Half-forward, 185cm, 75kg, Central Districts/Ingle Farm

Buckenara says: A really clever player with good leg speed, makes good decisions with the footy and can play forward and midfield. Hes another type who can add class and polish to the Crows.

13. Carlton Harry McKay

Forward, 200cm, 95kg, Gippsland Power/Warragul

Buckenara says: Given Ive got them taking Tucker and most of the other key-position players are gone, a guy like McKay would be a nice addition. Hes only been playing footy for four or five years, hes been more of a basketball guy so he came into the program late but really improved and gained a lot of confidence out of his performances in the Under-18 championships. Hes a tall, agile forward who can probably go into the ruck because he can jump. He does need to put a body on but hes a perfect key-position size.

14. Richmond Rhys Mathieson

Midfielder, 186cm, 82kg, Geelong Falcons/Bell Park

Buckenara says: Mathieson racks up the possessions, hes a hardworking in-and-under player who makes good decisions with the footy. Hed be a really good pick-up for the Tigers to add some quality to their midfield depth.

15. Adelaide Riley Bonner

Half-back, 191cm, 85kg, West Adelaide/Goodwood

Buckenara says: A tallish rebounding defender, Bonner is an Adelaide boy with a beautiful left-foot kick and provides a lot of drive off half-back because he loves to get the ball and run. His ball use is very good and similar to the way Grant Birchall distributes the ball. The go-home factor has probably hurt them a bit in the past so the fact hes from Adelaide adds a bit of weight here.

16. Brisbane Lions Eric Hipwood

Forward/defender, 199cm, 84kg, Brisbane Lions Academy/Aspley

Buckenara says: Hipwood is interesting. He can play as a key defender or key forward but is still very raw so the Lions will need to be patient with him. He is a good size and when he puts on a body, he will be a big boy and a fantastic addition. Hes a thumping kick.

*I expect the Saints to bid for Brisbane Academy player Eric Hipwood and the Lions to match it by using a combination of draft picks that equal pick 16.

17. St Kilda Ben McKay

Forward/defender, 199cm, 95kg, Gippsland Power/Warragul

Buckenara says: The twin brother of Harry McKay, Ben does have similar attributes to his brother in his size and shape and he came into the system a bit later this year. At this stage, Ben probably plays a little bit harder than what Harry does and his form at the back end of the year was really good. He would fit well in the St Kilda playing model.

18. Hawthorn Jade Gresham

Midfielder, 178cm, 77kg, Northern Knights/South Morang

Buckenara says: Given a few of the Hawks midfielders are getting older, Gresham would be a good addition. He was prolific in the TAC Cup and Under-18 championships, has good leg speed, good endurance and uses the ball well. Hes only small in stature but he does win his own ball and has the pace outside, not dissimilar to Billy Hartung who likes to take them on and break the lines. That type of player really goes well with Alastair Clarksons game plan.

Just wanted to say. Parish adresses our need for outside speed. While he has an inside game to. We already have 2

bull mids. Their names are Angus Brayshaw and Jack Viney

You don't need to say.. you have already mentioned 83637937 times how much you want Parish. We get it now.. and FWIW Parish isn't as quick as you think. Will add the outside class but not speed.

I think in Nick Vlastuin's interview with the club, he told our recruiter's in no uncertain terms that he had no interest in playing for a club that had tanked.

And yet Wallace is the only coach to have publicly admitted to tanking (for Cotchin).

Interesting that Buckenara doesn't have Oliver in top 18 and my Recruiting mates at both Geelong & Hawthorn tell me that both Clubs rate Oliver in the 15 to 20 range.

Hawks rate Gresham higher than Oliver and Cats rate Curnow as 3rd best player in the Draft.

You seriously think that our low clearance numbers and low Inside 50s are due to the fact that our players aren't 'inspired' to kick it to Dawes? Or were you simply being flippant to avoid the valid point?

I would argue to get off the Dawes Is To Blame For All Our Forward Woes Bandwagon and think about what jnrmac is saying about our midfield.

It should naturally improve with the young talent getting more exposure, but it is still bottom 4 in the league and our 'barely functioning' forwardline has done quite well to score as much as they have with the lack of supply.

I think our midfield is well set now and adding another kid this year will only strengthen it. Surely you can see this.

The defence is ok and there seems a bit of talent there to build on.

My valid point is our forward line is not well set at all. We only have Hogan as a legit key forward and Jeffy to pick up the crumbs...we are way off the mark here.

Of course Dawes is not to blame, we don't have any better than him or Pedders and it's not enough. It's not his fault. Neither offer enough to be good role players, there are too many limitations on their games.

Buckenara obviously doesn't rate Oliver?

Buckenara lost me when he had us take another key defender. Defence is the last thing we need to shore up at this point. We need mids, another forward and probably another ruck in that order.

Buckenara lost me when he had us take another key defender. Defence is the last thing we need to shore up at this point. We need mids, another forward and probably another ruck in that order.

Buckenara loves Kieran Collins ALMOST as much as Olisik loves Oliver.

I think our midfield is well set now and adding another kid this year will only strengthen it. Surely you can see this.

It's all talk and promise.

I no longer take the 'word' of supposed experts on here and out there - I want to see it before I believe it.

Viney and Brayshaw.

They are the proven long term answers without question marks of injury or whether they can play in the midfield at AFL level.

They are the only ones.

It's all talk and promise.

I no longer take the 'word' of supposed experts on here and out there - I want to see it before I believe it.

Viney and Brayshaw.

They are the proven long term answers without question marks of injury or whether they can play in the midfield at AFL level.

They are the only ones.

...but apart from Hogan, who is the talk and promise in the forward line?

Edited November 19, 20159 yr by rjay

Interesting that Buckenara doesn't have Oliver in top 18 and my Recruiting mates at both Geelong & Hawthorn tell me that both Clubs rate Oliver in the 15 to 20 range.

Hawks rate Gresham higher than Oliver and Cats rate Curnow as 3rd best player in the Draft.

If we go for 2 mids, I'd love Gresham at 7 after Parish at 3. Unfortunately, most recruiters are "heightest", so Gresham will slide.

Oliver is a scrub compared to Gresham.

...but apart from Hogan, who is the talk and promise in the forward line.

I don't know if you realise what Hogan is.

He is a bonafide star and fulcrum of a functioning forward line that will make lesser players play above themselves.

The Forwardline doesn't need a plethora of talent to run through it like a midfield does. In todays game there is about 10 mids going through at any one game.

Hogan will be everpresent as one of 6 and, as much as I love Viney and Brayshaw, in a different class altogether.

Clubs can manipulate personnel in the forward line to create a working forward line, like the Hawks did when they lost Franklin and Freo have done with only Pavlich, like Geelong did with Mooney and a less dominant Hawkins, like the Saints did with Riewoldt.

But if that midfield doesn't bat deep, it's all moot.

And the experience of teams is that they haven't reached for talls and if they felt bereft - they found them later in the draft or in trades or in the rookie draft.

Edited November 19, 20159 yr by rpfc