3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

He didn't say that all Saty.. i dont speak for him but i agree that at the moment we are still all too reliant on Nathan Jones as our go to man and someone who is just going to win us games. We are NOT going to be playing finals if that is still the case. For us to become a good finals team we need the likes of Viney Brayshaw Tyson and Salem over the next few 'years' to really step up to the point where they are getting hard tags instead of Jones.

Remember Shane Crawford? For some many years he was always their number 1 midfielder during those first couple of years of Clarkson era. He was the inspirational skipper that was always getting the number 1 tag and Towards the end of his career in fact 2008, Hawthorn had a good spread of up and coming A graders in Mitchell Hodge Lewis that they were able to take more control of the midfield leaving Crawford to play more on a half forward and rotating off the bench and still able to make a contribution. This is the dream scenario for me in 3 years time when we are playing finals that Tyson Viney Brayshaw Oliver Salem and Petracca will be all borderline A graders and starting on ball line up that they are able to push Jones out to playing more up forward rotating off the bench and still having an influence exactly like Crawford did.

Crikey Dazzle Man I find myself agreeing with you again! Must find those angry pills again......... Not!

Go Dees!

2 hours ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

I'd take Jones. Jones game has improved where as Cotchins has stalled. Plus I believe Cotchin has had better support around him. 

Jones for me. 

Delidio is another story. 

Delidio and Cotchin were dreadful in last years finals! As leaders they should be seething with their inept displays

I could never in my wildest dreams imagine Chunky Jones playing so poorly in a final!

Give me the goer anyday in a final! Is Jones that different to Todd Viney, who was superb in our finals campaigns

Deledio and Cotchin ?? Meh.. If you cant produce in cut throat finals boys, go play tiddlywinks with grandma around the corner!

Cotchin has better skills than Jones, but he goes to pieces under pressure.  Jones has far more fight to him which is why he's so valued in our club.  He will always put up a fight. 

3 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Well put Mr. Leg

jonesy is an excellent Blue Collar worker not a star. 

Gets tagged out of games too often. He must learn to break tags. 

Maybe this is why he is being pushed to run harder. 

I guess most are or should be hoping for the day that Nathan doesn't get the best tagger because others do : then he may become white collar. 

But if I recall, this is a Clayton Oliver thread : one an hope, reasonably, that Clayton may become one of those who take the tag away from Nathan

Edited January 24, 20169 yr by monoccular
addendum

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

I was in two minds as to whether I responded or not, but I can't let it go.  Selwood is unquestionably a couple of classes above Jones.

Selwood has won 3 B&F's in a far superior team and alongside champions of the game.  

He has 4 AA.  Jones has never made the squad.

He's been named best captain in the AFL.

Four times he's been named the AFL's most courageous player.

He also won the Rising Star award in 2007.

I appreciate it's harder to play well in a poor team, but on no level is Jones the equal of Selwood as a player and I find it one of your more baffling suggestions.

Also, in 3 more games Selwood has 350 more tackles.  You don't have to be a star to tackle.  It's just that Selwood is driven to do everything well.  

And tackling is just one more area where he's superior to Jones.

At our club, Brayshaw is more of the class of selwood. Jones has become one of my all time favorite players for the club purely through his hard work and heart. A very good player, yes , and as important for the MFC as selwood has been for geelong, but Jones is not in the same class as a footballer. For pure effort and heart then i say they match up very well.

1 hour ago, picket fence said:

Delidio and Cotchin were dreadful in last years finals! As leaders they should be seething with their inept displays

I could never in my wildest dreams imagine Chunky Jones playing so poorly in a final!

Give me the goer anyday in a final! Is Jones that different to Todd Viney, who was superb in our finals campaigns

Deledio and Cotchin ?? Meh.. If you cant produce in cut throat finals boys, go play tiddlywinks with grandma around the corner!

I think Jones and T.Viney is a good comparison as far as influence on the team goes. Jones more skilled but both of their main attributes was their ticker. 

3 hours ago, ProDee said:

The team aspect won't be quantified unless Jones plays alongside him at Geelong.  

My eyes tell me he's clearly a better player and stats and peer recognition suggest the same.

You don't win B&F's playing alongside premiership players in Scarlett, Enright, Ablett, Bartel, Taylor, Kelly, Corey, Johnson, etc. unless you're a star.

Selwood isn't just skilled and tough, he's also a superb reader of the game and decision maker.  It took Jones a long time to improve these aspects of his game. 

Selwood won a B&F in his 4th year.  It took Jones until his 6th season to play decent footy. 

There's no comparison.  Unless of course you're a biased Melbourne suppoerter with blinkers on.

I think we saw exactly what Selwood would have been like in a crappy team last season - he regularly lost his rag and was soundly beaten multiple times, notably by Viney in our win down there

He has been great, but has had a significant advantage on others of similar quality.

4 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

I'm almost certain none of Selwood, Pendles or Fyfe would have been able to drag us over the line for a win in any of the years from 2011-13 such was the state of our list and club.

Draft an 18 year old Selwood to the MFC in his draft year and I can guarantee he wouldn't be seen as the player he is today. Draft Nathan Jones to Geelong at the top of their power and I can guarantee he'd be valued more highly as a player amongst wider AFL community.

Regardless of all of that, the 'star' debate is a waste of time. It's like arguing on the best Ice Cream flavour. Everyone has their own flavour. It's subjective. Not only that, many other variables come to play. For example, the Selwood Vs Jones debate. Selwood will obviously possess the better stats in almost every category due to playing in such a successful team during such a successful era. Jones the complete opposite. His stats even during his best years individually will suffer due to playing in a far less successful and competitive side over such a long period. That is one example.

Geelong have suffered since the departure of Ablett and ageing and retirements of midfielders Bartel, Johnson, Kelly and Corey. Without them, Selwood hasn't been able to win games off his own boot and his form really wasn't that consistently good this year.

Selwood and Jones are in my mind very similar in playing style, attributes as well as height and weight and if we're isolating them as players, I don't think it's fair to say that Selwood is better than Jones or vice versa. 

However if we were comparing Fyfe to Jones, or Pendlebury to Jones then it's a different story. They're very different players.

Finishing on Oliver vs Jones - Comparing the two from the age of 18 I'd say that it's obvious Oliver has more to offer in terms of attribute diversity, however it remains to be seen whether he has the application and will to get the best out of himself in the way that Jones has been hellbent on doing his entire career.

Like ProDee, I'd hope and expect under our now rock-solid environment and development team that Oliver will be better player than Jones.

Don't worry about Selwood's stats when you discuss him. It would be fair to say he has played under worse ruckmen than Jones and it is not his team mates giving him the ball, that sees him starring, but rather his grabbing it himself and taking the game on.

Selwood is a true star of the game and would be one, playing for any team.

I don't think Pro Dees post is really about whether Jones is as good as Selwood, but rather that we need our young mids to kick on, with some of them becoming stars.

7 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

 

Trent Cotchin is the most overated playerin the AFL. His leadership is putrid and hasn't even gotten a kick in last 2 years finals. It was an absolute joke that he got air time in last months superstar segment on Fox Footy.

Please.. Give me the lion hearted Nathan Jones every day.

EDIT: Why is that everytime i open up to comment the last reply i quoted is still there and it won't go away. Happens all the time. Friggen frustrating.

Edited January 24, 20169 yr by dazzledavey36

Yeah, but he's the captain of one of the "big 4," so like it or not he (and countless other thoroughly average players at Richmond, Essendon, Collingwood and even Carlton) gets plenty of media attention. 

Marc Murphy and Brice Gibbs aren't fit to tie Jonesy's shoelaces, but you can guess who receives more PR fellatio every year.

Edited January 24, 20169 yr by SaberFang

27 minutes ago, SaberFang said:

Yeah, but he's the captain of one of the "big 4," so like it or not he (and countless other thoroughly average players at Richmond, Essendon, Collingwood and even Carlton) gets plenty of media attention. 

Marc Murphy and Brice Gibbs aren't fit to tie Jonesy's shoelaces, but you can guess who receives more PR fellatio every year.

I know its an absolute joke. 

5 hours ago, stuie said:

Wow.

You started out at least trying to use reason, now it's just getting silly.

 

I knew it wouldn't be long before the gadfly popped up.

The facts are Cotchin's best season is better than Jones' best season.  Cotchin made AA in 2012 and he did it in a team that finished 12th.

Cotchin averages more disposals, marks, goals and rating points (90 to 79) throughout his career with 50 less games (numbers usually go up as one's career progresses).

Cotchin has also won 3 B&F's; and in a team that has been superior to Jones'.

Cotchin has had one A-grade year and Jones has had one A-grade year.

Cotchin is naturally a more talented and skilled player.

I've already said Cotchin has been disappointing over the last 3 years, as I expected him to become a superstar, even then he's averaged more possessions, goals and ratings points than Jones.

If Melbourne supporters prefer Jones that's great, but for you to utter the words "wow" and "silly" only confirms that you have an iq bordering on you know what.

7 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

I'm almost certain none of Selwood, Pendles or Fyfe would have been able to drag us over the line for a win in any of the years from 2011-13 such was the state of our list and club.

Draft an 18 year old Selwood to the MFC in his draft year and I can guarantee he wouldn't be seen as the player he is today. Draft Nathan Jones to Geelong at the top of their power and I can guarantee he'd be valued more highly as a player amongst wider AFL community.

Regardless of all of that, the 'star' debate is a waste of time. It's like arguing on the best Ice Cream flavour. Everyone has their own flavour. It's subjective. Not only that, many other variables come to play. For example, the Selwood Vs Jones debate. Selwood will obviously possess the better stats in almost every category due to playing in such a successful team during such a successful era. Jones the complete opposite. His stats even during his best years individually will suffer due to playing in a far less successful and competitive side over such a long period. That is one example.

Geelong have suffered since the departure of Ablett and ageing and retirements of midfielders Bartel, Johnson, Kelly and Corey. Without them, Selwood hasn't been able to win games off his own boot and his form really wasn't that consistently good this year.

Selwood and Jones are in my mind very similar in playing style, attributes as well as height and weight and if we're isolating them as players, I don't think it's fair to say that Selwood is better than Jones or vice versa. 

However if we were comparing Fyfe to Jones, or Pendlebury to Jones then it's a different story. They're very different players.

Finishing on Oliver vs Jones - Comparing the two from the age of 18 I'd say that it's obvious Oliver has more to offer in terms of attribute diversity, however it remains to be seen whether he has the application and will to get the best out of himself in the way that Jones has been hellbent on doing his entire career.

Like ProDee, I'd hope and expect under our now rock-solid environment and development team that Oliver will be better player than Jones.

another factor is the propaganda factor. The media/commentators talk about the gun players of the bigger clubs like they are deities and never, ever do our players get shown the same type of worship. This happens because there are simply more supporters n the media of the bigger clubs and they know that the best thing for them to do in their job is to pander to the bigger supporter bases. Because we have been a pathetic wasteland for so long, nobody is bothering to pander to us. This influences public opinion because basically the public are stupid and can be easily influenced. Absolutely if Jones was at Hawthorn or Collingwood he would have a much better reputation from the public.

i don't see jones as in selwood's class either.

 

viney is the one who i think can get there - he has the same offensive / defensive mindset, and sheer will to win every contest in which he competes.

 

i am hoping oliver (and petracca, for that matter) can become more like rockliff than like jones - high possession mids who also work well defensively in addition to hitting the scoreboard regularly.

5 hours ago, picket fence said:

go play tiddlywinks with grandma around the corner!

 

2 minutes ago, Curry & Beer said:

 

theres got to be websites for that stuff. unless I'm mistaking the game of tiddly winks

7 hours ago, Curry & Beer said:

another factor is the propaganda factor. The media/commentators talk about the gun players of the bigger clubs like they are deities and never, ever do our players get shown the same type of worship. This happens because there are simply more supporters n the media of the bigger clubs and they know that the best thing for them to do in their job is to pander to the bigger supporter bases. Because we have been a pathetic wasteland for so long, nobody is bothering to pander to us. This influences public opinion because basically the public are stupid and can be easily influenced. Absolutely if Jones was at Hawthorn or Collingwood he would have a much better reputation from the public.

Hogan got plenty of wraps last year for kicking 44 goals and being third for contested marks in his first season.

 

If Jones was at Hawthorn he would be regarded as solid contributor in a team full of guns.

 

 

14 hours ago, ProDee said:

I was in two minds as to whether I responded or not, but I can't let it go.  Selwood is unquestionably a couple of classes above Jones.

Selwood has won 3 B&F's in a far superior team and alongside champions of the game.  

He has 4 AA.  Jones has never made the squad.

He's been named best captain in the AFL.

Four times he's been named the AFL's most courageous player.

He also won the Rising Star award in 2007.

I appreciate it's harder to play well in a poor team, but on no level is Jones the equal of Selwood as a player and I find it one of your more baffling suggestions.

Also, in 3 more games Selwood has 350 more tackles.  You don't have to be a star to tackle.  It's just that Selwood is driven to do everything well.  

And tackling is just one more area where he's superior to Jones.

Yes.

You're pointing out what the stats say and the accolades he's received.

I'm arguing that much of this is to do with the environment he found himself in once drafted, the group of leaders he played under from a young age, the quality coaches that developed him and the immediate success that surrounded him at Geelong which brings about an increase at every emotional and feeling level. Confidence and motivation. Two things he would never have had to think twice about from his development years at Geelong.

Yes he was a higher pick than Nathan and perhaps he is a bit better than Jones in some areas. But the gap isn't as big as what you make out.  

Put them head-to-head in a couple of training drills and it'd be more even than you think.

Nathan Jones struggles with a tag and that is something he desperately needs to work on, i personally think he's a better player than cotchin but for him to go to the next level he needs to close the gap between games he is tagged in and games he isn't, find a way to have more of an impact when he's being closely watched.

1 minute ago, Peter Griffen said:

Nathan Jones struggles with a tag and that is something he desperately needs to work on, i personally think he's a better player than cotchin but for him to go to the next level he needs to close the gap between games he is tagged in and games he isn't, find a way to have more of an impact when he's being closely watched.

Nathan is not Robinson Crusoe there; the 2 players mentioned in recent posts, Cotchin & Selwood are putrid when tagged.

8 hours ago, DemonAndrew said:

i don't see jones as in selwood's class either.

 

viney is the one who i think can get there - he has the same offensive / defensive mindset, and sheer will to win every contest in which he competes.

 

i am hoping oliver (and petracca, for that matter) can become more like rockliff than like jones - high possession mids who also work well defensively in addition to hitting the scoreboard regularly.

I'm hoping they're much better than that or we're going nowhere.

I'm sure if you applied the 'schoolyard' test and lined them up against a wall Selwood would be picked before Jones......

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Yes.

You're pointing out what the stats say and the accolades he's received.

I'm arguing that much of this is to do with the environment he found himself in once drafted, the group of leaders he played under from a young age, the quality coaches that developed him and the immediate success that surrounded him at Geelong which brings about an increase at every emotional and feeling level. Confidence and motivation. Two things he would never have had to think twice about from his development years at Geelong.

Yes he was a higher pick than Nathan and perhaps he is a bit better than Jones in some areas. But the gap isn't as big as what you make out.  

Put them head-to-head in a couple of training drills and it'd be more even than you think.

You do realise there's a reason for those stats and accolades ?  

At the age of 22 in 2010 Selwood won Geelong's B&F.  It was in the middle one of modern AFL history's greatest dynasties.  Have a look at the names in that side and how many games they played for the season.

Jones was a chump for the first 5 years of his career.  Yes, it didn't help playing for a rabble devoid of a strong senior group.  But I don't know in what parallel universe you can claim Jones to be Selwood's equal.  It's utter nonsense.

9 hours ago, Curry & Beer said:

 This influences public opinion because basically the public are stupid and can be easily influenced. 

Ive seen you say this many times on here.

I've been saying for years, that the world is full to the brim, with incredibly stupid people. Try working in a coal mine, where the average income, is around twice the average i.q of the workers. If you want to fit in, just add "ay" to the end of every sentence.

 

As for the argument about Jones/Cotchin, haven't people, since the beginning of time, been saying that the greats should be judged by their influence in finals?

Compare Cotchin with Hodge. Sometimes raw talent cant overcome whats lacking inside the head. Thats not to say that Cotchin isn't more talented than Jones. I just dont think the gap is all that big.

 

1 minute ago, faultydet said:

...As for the argument about Jones/Cotchin, haven't people, since the beginning of time, been saying that the greats should be judged by their influence in finals?

Compare Cotchin with Hodge. Sometimes raw talent cant overcome whats lacking inside the head. Thats not to say that Cotchin isn't more talented than Jones. I just dont think the gap is all that big.

Yep.  If you can't perform in finals you're as useful as a cold pie.

Cotchin should get more chances to redeem himself and Jones will get another taste of finals action, if not this year then next.

10 hours ago, ProDee said:

I knew it wouldn't be long before the gadfly popped up.

The facts are Cotchin's best season is better than Jones' best season.  Cotchin made AA in 2012 and he did it in a team that finished 12th.

Cotchin averages more disposals, marks, goals and rating points (90 to 79) throughout his career with 50 less games (numbers usually go up as one's career progresses).

Cotchin has also won 3 B&F's; and in a team that has been superior to Jones'.

Cotchin has had one A-grade year and Jones has had one A-grade year.

Cotchin is naturally a more talented and skilled player.

I've already said Cotchin has been disappointing over the last 3 years, as I expected him to become a superstar, even then he's averaged more possessions, goals and ratings points than Jones.

If Melbourne supporters prefer Jones that's great, but for you to utter the words "wow" and "silly" only confirms that you have an iq bordering on you know what.

As usual you take a simplistic look at things that will suit your agenda.

The fact is there's not a big enough difference in their key stats to clearly say one is way better. And no, numbers don't "usually go up", especially if you're talking about a 28 year old.

But aside from that, you're forgetting about context, as usual. As you said, Cotchin was in a "superior" team, meaning he had far more support, help with tags, better structures and coaching, more wins, all things that would help you perform better. Jones has almost identical stats over a longer period of time in a team where he has been the sole target of opposition midfields, has had 0 support, terrible coaching and far less wins.

On top of that, Cotchin (as many others have mentioned) is not much of a leader and there's no way in hell he would have been able to carry a club every week the way Jones has/does.

Also, you seem to be changing your argument to Cotchin is more "talented". No one will disagree with that, but that's not what you were saying. You were saying you would take him ahead of Jones, and there is no way in hell Cotchin would have done anywhere near as much in the red and blue as he has for the Tigers.

You yourself say Cotchin has been "disappointing over the last 3 years" which at 25 is the peak of his career, and at a time the Tigers were meant to be challenging. Clearly he has struggled with leadership impacting his game, whereas Jones has elevated his game since becoming captain.

Cotchin may be more naturally talented, but Jones has shown the type of leadership, heart, character and determination that you would want for a team in our situation.

But you know, if you're happy with a captain who by your own admission has been disappointing since becoming one then it shows how little understanding you actually have of the game.

 

Edited January 24, 20169 yr by stuie