Precisely my point

A) We picked a guy who clearly was not ready

B) Why did we pick a guy who clearly was not ready

Picket mate you've flogged this for 2 years now. Lets all move on together from Ollie Wines.....

100% incorrect.

Watch it again. Another melbourne player (I believe it was Viney) let Jack Steven run from the centre to that forward flank without chasing.

The Toump got stages towards the play as they had an overlap - Stevens ran past and got the ball to bomb it forward.

When Toump tried to cover the loose man, Montagna, being the player he is, made position elsewhere. No other melbourne player was ready or willing to help and Montagna was left free. In fact, Viney was jogging a few meters away from Montagna at the time of the right angle bounce.

It was his team mate who didn't run hard enough first up, nor did he pick up the spare opposition player who effectively ran past him in our D50.

I had never watched it closely before and I just accepted that prevailing view that Toumpas made a mistake resulting from his inexperience.

I've watched this play quite a few times since your post Deanox. I completely agree with you. Toumpas did nearly everything right. He had no choice than to leave Montagna and try to tackle Lonie when he got the ball in the forward line and ran towards Toumpas. Lonie passed the ball to Stevens who ran by without Viney anywhere near.

Toumpas then did the right thing and ran towards the fall of the ball to support Newton who was against Bruce.

And you're right, it was Viney who was Stevens man at the centre bounce. Stevens got the ball and ran off leaving him for dead. Stevens then followed up his kick and got the ball again with no Viney in sight - at least on camera.

Toumpas has been completely unfairly attributed with the mistake which resulted in Montagna kicking that goal.

Finally of course, the awkward bounce of the ball in front of MacDonald made an implausible goal possible.

Montagna gets great credit, but really it was Stevens who made that goal.

I had never watched it closely before and I just accepted that prevailing view that Toumpas made a mistake resulting from his inexperience.

I've watched this play quite a few times since your post Deanox. I completely agree with you. Toumpas did nearly everything right. He had no choice than to leave Montagna and try to tackle Lonie when he got the ball in the forward line and ran towards Toumpas. Lonie passed the ball to Stevens who ran by without Viney anywhere near.

Toumpas then did the right thing and ran towards the fall of the ball to support Newton who was against Bruce.

And you're right, it was Viney who was Stevens man at the centre bounce. Stevens got the ball and ran off leaving him for dead. Stevens then followed up his kick and got the ball again with no Viney in sight - at least on camera.

Toumpas has been completely unfairly attributed with the mistake which resulted in Montagna kicking that goal.

Finally of course, the awkward bounce of the ball in front of MacDonald made an implausible goal possible.

Montagna gets great credit, but really it was Stevens who made that goal.

Who is Stevens?

I had never watched it closely before and I just accepted that prevailing view that Toumpas made a mistake resulting from his inexperience.

I've watched this play quite a few times since your post Deanox. I completely agree with you. Toumpas did nearly everything right. He had no choice than to leave Montagna and try to tackle Lonie when he got the ball in the forward line and ran towards Toumpas. Lonie passed the ball to Stevens who ran by without Viney anywhere near.

Toumpas then did the right thing and ran towards the fall of the ball to support Newton who was against Bruce.

And you're right, it was Viney who was Stevens man at the centre bounce. Stevens got the ball and ran off leaving him for dead. Stevens then followed up his kick and got the ball again with no Viney in sight - at least on camera.

Toumpas has been completely unfairly attributed with the mistake which resulted in Montagna kicking that goal.

Finally of course, the awkward bounce of the ball in front of MacDonald made an implausible goal possible.

Montagna gets great credit, but really it was Stevens who made that goal.

Much like it wasn't Houli's fault Richmond lost to Freo, it wasn't Toumpas's fault we lost to St Kilda. It was a collective team failure. From coach, trainer, to all players it was a team failure.

The fact that Toump played probably his best game that day needs to be the prevailing memory.

Picket Fence: There is no point harping on about that question. We can go back through just about every draft and say "why didn't we take....." and yes I know you'll say Todd Viney should've had the inside word but it is totally pointless to this discussion on whether we should be re-signing Jimmy.

We got Jimmy, they got Wines. That's the way the dominos fell, next time you see Todd and Co why don't you go up to them in person and ask the question.

I was hard on Viney at the start of the year, I thought he only had ONE pace - flat out. Clearly he rectified any shortcomings and improved upon them. Whoever worked with Viney - needs to start working with Jimmy Toumpas. Get this kid in the gym, he looks small to me, and looks stiff. I think he needs to strengthen up, and loosen up. What would I do? I would lock the kid in the gym, strength work, plyometrics, and I would make him join a martial arts class - Choy Lay Fut, or even ballet. He needs to loosen his limbs. Somehow I don't think I'd have to offer my opinion on what our players should do - if Dave Mission was actually competent. That bloke is an absolute joke. I still remember when Trengove appeared on the footy show a few years back, he was captain, he looked dreadfully out of condition, like I would've been appalled to rock up like that to a local ressies game. Was about that time when I started wondering WTF was going on down at the club.

Precisely my point

A) We picked a guy who clearly was not ready

B) Why did we pick a guy who clearly was not ready

Hawkins wasn't ready either, or arguably Ablett Jnr, wouldn't mind having either of them in the team.

Hawkins wasn't ready either, or arguably Ablett Jnr, wouldn't mind having either of them in the team.

Chris at the risk of getting you fired up!

Young Jimmy is not even in the same street as that duo.

I suspect a lot of his problem is between the ears and as a result I doubt he will ever be better than average on his best day.

and yes I know you'll say Todd Viney should've had the inside word but it is totally pointless to this discussion on whether we should be re-signing Jimmy.

If I recall, Jack Viney, when interviewed pre draft, said given the choice he would take Toumpas over Wines. And Wines was his best mate.

Chris at the risk of getting you fired up!

Young Jimmy is not even in the same street as that duo.

I suspect a lot of his problem is between the ears and as a result I doubt he will ever be better than average on his best day.

I think Hawkins had similar issues tbh. He was very ordinary for a long time. Having said that, hard to relate a KPF to a midfielder in terms of development.

I still think Jimmy can be a good player, or at least a solid contributor. Just needs to get it right in his own mind. Then the improvement can be rapid.

Fingers crossed that he isn't just going to languish on the list for another couple of years.

Chris at the risk of getting you fired up!

Young Jimmy is not even in the same street as that duo.

I suspect a lot of his problem is between the ears and as a result I doubt he will ever be better than average on his best day.

I agree completely, my point though was that players who aren't quite ready are sometimes worth recruiting as when they are ready they can be absolute stars, which was in reply to a comment about not recruiting players who are not ready, sometimes it can pay off big time.

Re-signing Toumpas is logical.

At the end of the season Bail, Fitzpatrick, M.Jones, Riley, Jamar, McKenzie, Terlich will most probably go. That's 7 spots to fill with VDB to be elevated. Howe and Garland may leave 2 more spots.

If Toumpas were not re-signed, his replacement pick would be in the 80-100+ range. In last years draft only 2 players were taken with picks over 80, across every club!

What would be the better option? A pick at that range in a weak draft or a kid who has been injured for a substantial part of his 2 years at the club?

Trading him and offering big bucks for an established elite player.

Trading him and offering big bucks for an established elite player.

Trading him for what, a third rounder? He's got far more upside than anyone picked at that range would, in an extremely shallow draft to boot.

He wouldn't be on big money so if we traded him it's hardly likely to free up a war chest to throw at an "established elite player" either.

So many on here seem to post without thinking.

Edited September 1, 201510 yr by Members' Wing

Interesting. I went back to 2012 posts, and there was a thread on Jimmy Toumpas well before the draft. Basically members of this board had Toumpas, Wines and Stringer as the pick 4 choice, with Toumpas being the majority choice. How time changes things.

Picket Fence had the same opinion as he shows now, so he has been consistent on the Toumpas issue, right from the start.

Don't worry, we'll just cut all our duds AND all our developing young players who haven't immediately dominated games and just replace them with A-graders from the magical A-grade player tree. Makes sense, right?

If I recall, Jack Viney, when interviewed pre draft, said given the choice he would take Toumpas over Wines. And Wines was his best mate.

What would Jack Viney know? Is he a recruiter?

Best mates eh? Hnmm pondering the significance of this!

Anyway we have him and I can see some sense in keeping him on minimal money!

I'm not expecting too much but BUT if he turns it around it would be a reasonably good outcome for him and the MFC

Still would not discard a trade if one were to be offered.

Edited September 1, 201510 yr by picket fence

Our game style doesn't suit Toumpas...

Does that condemn us or him?

What would Jack Viney know? Is he a recruiter?

Best mates eh? Hnmm pondering the significance of this!

He played with and against both Wines and Toumpas and his old man was charged with looking at both...

Hindsight is great but more people had Toumpas ahead at the time than vice versa, even if you have been consistent all along.

Trading him and offering big bucks for an established elite player.

So the logic is:

Step 1: Trade Toumpas

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Trade for Established Elite Player

Jimmy Toumpas is more likely to become an elite player than be apart of a trade to get an elite player, and in terms of money - he would be on less than the average salary.

The Case Of Giving Jimmy Toumpas Another Contract is irrelevant to any trade for an elite player.

Our game style doesn't suit Toumpas...

We have one?

Trading him and offering big bucks for an established elite player.

Can't trade him if he's not re-signed, And if I am not mistaken you cant trade them in the first year of a contract? Or is that only for new draftees?

Picket mate you've flogged this for 2 years now. Lets all move on together from Ollie Wines.....

The ignore button is a wonderful tool.

Can't trade him if he's not re-signed, And if I am not mistaken you cant trade them in the first year of a contract? Or is that only for new draftees?

i think you can. contracts don't end until just after trade time

Can't trade him if he's not re-signed, And if I am not mistaken you cant trade them in the first year of a contract? Or is that only for new draftees?

They are available for trade until after the trade period, that's why the players pushed for free agency because even if you were out of contract the departing player needed to play ball with his current club to get to his club of choice. If we re-sign him now he is off the table until the next trade period.

I could see an idea of trading him for a top quality player as a sweetener if it was necessary.

Can't trade him if he's not re-signed, And if I am not mistaken you cant trade them in the first year of a contract? Or is that only for new draftees?

I think you can. giants traded Boyd to the dogs after just one year

You can trade if all agreeable