THIS GLOOM & DOOM IS RIDICULOUS

[stuie 7,374]

No one is disputing that.

To me, that's where the "gloom & doom" is coming from. Not from the results, but from the same things we've seen for years and haven't changed.

[Samael 560]

Yet after the Richmond game everyone was praising our hardness and effort. Or were they not? That was less than a month ago.

We showed it against Richmond and Adelaide, but not against Hawthorn.

I don't think we've seen enough one way or the other to warrant the top-end doom and gloom.

We are fans on the outside looking in so get frustrated when yoyu have the coach saying "we have improved" yet none of us with hand on heart can really say we can see it.

Side issue Just watching 360 on Fox and Fyffe is playing his 100th this week. FMD Watts just played his.

[MadAsHell 4,209]

Ludicrous is an appropriate comment. 1 player who's playing future is uncertain and another who hasn't played senior football at any level, are considered best 22. Yeah right.

And Jamar and Watts are out of the team due to form, and neither have demonstrated that they are consistent AFL players.

We've seen performances like last week every year for the past 8, and we haven't turned things around. What makes you think that this year is any different?

So does that mean that if a players future is in doubt due to injury, but is still on our list and working towards a recovery mean he's not in our best 22? So in the mid 90's the Ox was never in our best team? Hogan wasn't last year as who knows how his back was going to respond? He's on our list, hasn't retired, he's in our best 22.

Neither Brayshaw or Hogan had played a game at the start of the season, yet were both in our 22. Think you may find Petracca falls into the same category as those two.

I agree Jamar & Watts were dropped for form. That doesn't mean that they aren't in our 22 when in form which is what my post refered to. I said they weren't in the 22 for reasons other then injury. And Jamar making an AA team also shows at least at some point he has demonstrated some consistency at AFL level.

And yes we have seen performances like this before over the last 8 years. I'm confident things will improve due to less dead wood on the list then other years and you'll see even less dead wood again next year. We have some quality coaches, a CEO and stable board finally in place. At the moment we're still struggling on the park, but I believe things will turn. After 22 years of missing finals they turned once before and will do it again.

Saturday's performance was shocking. I can see the reasons for the shocking performance. It's not a good enough excuse, and they should have fought it out harder. They didn't. All part of the transition that's in effect.

[Henrietta Lumbago 331]

Viney and Jetta were crucial losses for us, given that they offer a tougher edge that so many of our players lack.

Remember that after the Richmond win the talk was about everyone's surprise at Melbourne 'out-muscling and out-working' an opponent. People joking about how they had to read that twice.

Somewhere in this team, the toughness does exist and the effort can be made. But we also all know that too many players just don't see the point once they feel like a loss is inevitable anyway.

We need to beat a few comparable teams to ourselves, and at some point sneak an unexpected win or two, if we are going to restore enough confidence to the players to get them out of the celler-dweller state of mind.

Hodge, Lewis Isaac Smith and Mccevoy were bigger outs than ours...

[Adam The God 29,328]

It's not the actual results people are upset about. It's the fact that all of the non-talent related issues (effort, spirit, footy basics) are STILL happening.

That is the bigger picture.

Inconsistency in performance was endemic of Geelong prior to it all clicking for them in 2007 too. I'm not saying we're on the cusp of a dynasty, but some perspective is still needed, mate. Let's reassess in a month's time.

Edited May 20, 2015 by AdamFarr

[Wiseblood 24,637]

The endless argument about who did and didn't play on Saturday highlights only one thing - Hawthorn's depth is a hell of a lot better than ours. They could cover the players who were missing, we couldn't. This is the crux of it, and until we change that with good draft picks and some frugal trading, we will always struggle when we are hit by a few injuries.

[Je Roos Salem 661]

It's naive to think things are gonna turn around quickly. As people have said, we lack the basics but I really don't get supporters who constantly adjust their standards

We've had two preseasons under Roos, we've recruited several players who were meant to top up our list, we had picks 2+3, if our list is crap now then it probably always will be. Is it insane to think we might have 30 or so players who are developed and mature enough to be inserted into the line up and give a hard contest or at least play with some co-ordinance?

[Mydee 288]

GORGORTH…….. an excellant report. I have supported the Dees for 50 years,No.1 Messiah Ron Barrassi won premierships with North and Carlton…. in 5 years at the helm he manged no finals and a wooden spoon.Messiah No.2 Paul Roos looks highly likely to

be a master under achiever, certainly lacks innovation. We may have recruited some good players in Garlett,Frost,Lumumba,Hogan,T.Mac,Salem,Kent,however the rest have vanished off the radar like the missing Malaysian airplane two years ago.

I wonder if the Dees are trying to make a point to the the AFL that we deserve a priority pick……..6 to 8 wins would be a fail for a coach who gets 1.6 Million per annum in his 2nd year. Did Barcelona win last week?

Players should stop shooting off their trap i.e Dawes stating the Hawks are for the taking…… I need a vomit bag a.s.a.p if not sooner. Dees players shut the F.ck up.

Barrassi set the basis for the successful Northey sides. He injected some professionalism into what had been a rabble. What I can't forgive is the reversion to a rabble after Daniher. But there is light at the end of this tunnel, with a good coach president CEO and injection (oops introduction) of better young players although in 2013 I didn't think so and expressed similar views to yours on this forum

[Red and Bluebeard 2,075]

given you are invariably wrong, bbo, i suppose i should be optimistic

but why do i feel so bitter?

Does that make you optimistic but bitter? What happens when you make alpacas run backwards?

[What 18,810]

Hodge, Lewis Isaac Smith and Mccevoy were bigger outs than ours...

No they weren't since they can be replaced with quality AFL standard players

Edited May 20, 2015 by hogans_heroes

[Henrietta Lumbago 331]

No they weren't since they can be replaced with quality AFL standard players

You know what I mean, their captain, no 1 ruckman and two of their best midfielders...translate that to our team means that N Jones, Tyson, Vince and our number 1 ruckman were out...

[Gator 17,224]

How hard is it to work out that young teams occasionally lack "effort" when they're overwhelmed and there's not the leaders to show the way. It has happened for time immemorial.

Michael Voss played in a wooden spoon team. Sam Mitchel played in a bottom team. As have countless others who went on to be stars.

We've got the most exciting key forward I've ever seen at Melbourne, an exciting key defender and one of the most exciting young mids I've seen join the club. Plus Petracca who will be a star.

It's a brilliant template.

[Adam The God 29,328]

It's naive to think things are gonna turn around quickly. As people have said, we lack the basics but I really don't get supporters who constantly adjust their standards

We've had two preseasons under Roos, we've recruited several players who were meant to top up our list, we had picks 2+3, if our list is crap now then it probably always will be. Is it insane to think we might have 30 or so players who are developed and mature enough to be inserted into the line up and give a hard contest or at least play with some co-ordinance?

Our list is ordinary at the moment, because the majority of our best players have yet to play 50 games. It means they struggle to impact games consistently now.

I know we've heard this sort of talk before, but there is tangible evidence that Salem, Hogan, Brayshaw, Tyson, Viney and Tommy Mac have the goods. It's just a matter of continually improving and gaining in match experience. Let's see Petracca next year, add whoever else we pick up next year and we could have a very solid core group to move forward with.

We are realistically another year or two away from being able to challenge for 7th or 8th position on the ladder. That's frustrating. Tell me about it, but to quote the OP, 'this gloom and doom is ridiculous'.

[Adam The God 29,328]

How hard is it to work out that young teams occasionally lack "effort" when they're overwhelmed and there's not the leaders to show the way. It has happened for time immemorial.

Michael Voss played in a wooden spoon team. Sam Mitchel played in a bottom team. As have countless others who went on to be stars.

We've got the most exciting key forward I've ever seen at Melbourne, an exciting key defender and one of the most exciting young mids I've seen join the club. Plus Petracca who will be a star.

It's a brilliant template.

With Roos and McCartney to nurture and develop.

[stuie 7,374]

How hard is it to work out that young teams occasionally lack "effort" when they're overwhelmed and there's not the leaders to show the way. It has happened for time immemorial.

Michael Voss played in a wooden spoon team. Sam Mitchel played in a bottom team. As have countless others who went on to be stars.

We've got the most exciting key forward I've ever seen at Melbourne, an exciting key defender and one of the most exciting young mids I've seen join the club. Plus Petracca who will be a star.

It's a brilliant template.

Rubbish.

Our average age is HIGHER than these teams:

West Coast

Port Adelaide

Collingwood

St Kilda

Brisbane

West Bulldogs

Gold Coast

GWS Giants

How many of those teams consistently put in a worse effort than us?

Sick of the excuses when the facts don't back it up.

[jimbo1982 94]

Watts

Gawn

McKenzie

Pedersen

Cross

MIchie

Hunt

Grimes

Jamar

Spencer

Bail

Jones

Terich

Fitzpatrick

King

I'd keep Watts, Pederson, Cross & Michie. If also add Dawes to the list to go.

[Gator 17,224]

Rubbish.

Our average age is HIGHER than these teams:

West Coast

Port Adelaide

Collingwood

St Kilda

Brisbane

West Bulldogs

Gold Coast

GWS Giants

How many of those teams consistently put in a worse effort than us?

Sick of the excuses when the facts don't back it up.

I don't care about our average age. Not yet anyway. Our older players are ordinary. They're the ones that effect your average age. This shouldn't be news to you. If you care about 'average age' then you have no clue about our club or its journey.

Clearly, our future success relies on youth. Youth, by nature, is inconsistent.

I back our core youth against any of the clubs you mention save GWS, Gold Coast and maybe the Dogs.

Your argument smacks of that ridiculous question that is often pondered in the media, "Who's closest to a flag". It's the silliest question you'll ever be asked.

[Je Roos Salem 661]

Our list is ordinary at the moment, because the majority of our best players have yet to play 50 games. It means they struggle to impact games consistently now.

I know we've heard this sort of talk before, but there is tangible evidence that Salem, Hogan, Brayshaw, Tyson, Viney and Tommy Mac have the goods. It's just a matter of continually improving and gaining in match experience. Let's see Petracca next year, add whoever else we pick up next year and we could have a very solid core group to move forward with.

We are realistically another year or two away from being able to challenge for 7th or 8th position on the ladder. That's frustrating. Tell me about it, but to quote the OP, 'this gloom and doom is ridiculous'.

Agree, although whether Tyson will want to stay on board remains to be seen. The other 5 I feel a bit better about future-wise. I just get the feeling that if certain players don't step up soon we're gonna have to completely re-mould our list. (Grimes, Mckenzie, Bail, Terlich, M.Jones for instance). Hopefully one of Michie and Riley can become a consistent complimentary midfielder. Trengove seems passionate about the club, but he needs a lot of improvement after he's healthy

[Adam The God 29,328]

Agree, although whether Tyson will want to stay on board remains to be seen. The other 5 I feel a bit better about future-wise. I just get the feeling that if certain players don't step up soon we're gonna have to completely re-mould our list. (Grimes, Mckenzie, Bail, Terlich, M.Jones for instance). Hopefully one of Michie and Riley can become a consistent complimentary midfielder. Trengove seems passionate about the club, but he needs a lot of improvement after he's healthy

I think the five you've named will be delisted next year. Over the next two to three years, we need to add two or three A graders to our crop of mids (think Prestia this year and someone of his calibre the following year). FA and trades will be make this viable anyway. We just need to show prospective players that we're not still a basketcase and that there is hope for the future. The following will help this cause: Hogan being continually lauded in the press as the next great KPF. Tommy Mac finally getting the credit he deserves and continuing to improve his game substantially. Tyson and Jones lifting their games. We get all this clicking and all of a sudden, we're marketable destination.

With regards to Trenners, I wouldn't expect much from him. I think of him as if he'll never play another game again. There's no point calculating him in our future A grade midfield, because the likelihood that he'll even play again is slim, not to mention, he's not actually the player we thought he was. He seems like a top bloke. A loyal kid and I love him for that, but he doesn't have the tools of a Salem and he was already so slow, this injury will only exacerbate the issue.

[Bobby McKenzie 2,321]

Ludicrous comments!

We were missing 7 first choice players through injury on the weekend:

Frost

Jetta

Hogan

Kent

Viney

Trengove

Petracca

Two others for other reasons:

Jamar

Watts

One of our first choice players injured themselves early on:

Salem

And one of the first players who would have come in to replace some of those injured, was also missing through injury:

Kennedy-Harris

Saturday was unacceptable, don't get me wrong, and yes Hawthorn were missing players also. However the A & B Grade players they had out were replaced by other B and C+ players. Given some of the B Grade players we had out were replaced by C-, D & E Grade players (and we had more out) then we feel their loss a lot more then Hawthorn felt the loss of their outs.

Our best 22 v their best 22. I tell you what I'd be more concerned about a 70 point loss to them then I was about our 105 point loss on Saturday. I expect a big improvement in our effort this weekend, however to disregard the circumstances of Saturday's loss is pure wrist slashing drivel.

A well measured answer to the illogical comments above.

Get serious. Hawthorn were missing A graders in Hodge and Lewis and B graders in Lake, Smith and McEvoy. We were missing C graders in Viney and Jetta, and good young players in Hogan and Kent. If both teams had their best 22, we would have lost by 130 points.

I wish people would stop making excuses. The only chance we had of being competitive on the scoreboard was if Hawthorn were complacent. After coming off a shock loss to GWS and Dawes shooting his mouth off, that was never going to happen.

Viney and Jetta are hardly C graders as you call them. You mark hard mate!

Edited May 20, 2015 by Bobby McKenzie

[nutbean 8,838]

My bias is showing! I actually struggled to think of a player for us who does it week in week out. And frankly that is an indictment.

Your namesake - was not particularly quick, disposal could be iffy - but brought it each and every week. The two closest we have is Jones and Cross. The best and worst efforts of most of our team is too wide. When most of the team bring the same effort the junior brought to the team on a weekly basis we will see a rise up the ladder.

[jackaub 1,402]

To me, that's where the "gloom & doom" is coming from. Not from the results, but from the same things we've seen for years and haven't changed.

That's exactly right Stuie. Nothing about the Team and leadership and intent has changed. If it had and we wern't good enough after putting in 4 quarters effort each game I could handle that and would continue to be optimistic about the future, and would support the team completely. But they don't and the intent and desire is missing and gloom comes from the fact alone

[nutbean 8,838]

I don't care about our average age. Not yet anyway. Our older players are ordinary. They're the ones that effect your average age. This shouldn't be news to you. If you care about 'average age' then you have no clue about our club or its journey.

Clearly, our future success relies on youth. Youth, by nature, is inconsistent.

I back our core youth against any of the clubs you mention save GWS, Gold Coast and maybe the Dogs.

Your argument smacks of that ridiculous question that is often pondered in the media, "Who's closest to a flag". It's the silliest question you'll ever be asked.

Average age - and the core of mature players is very important - unfortunately we have been unable to develop (or keep) our players so they are backbone of the club like they at Hawthorn and Sydney. These players are so important to take pressure off the youth and allow them develop.

Roos has recognised this ( as did Neeld) but we have bought our mature players at a garage sale so as you rightly point out they are fairly ordinary. Our youth is good and I hope they are not hampered by the lack of older talented players with experience, mentorship, leadership. A perfect example is Billy Hartung who is one of the Hawks mid rotation who can develop unseen behind the likes of Mitchell, Lewis, Hodge etc

[stuie 7,374]

I don't care about our average age. Not yet anyway. Our older players are ordinary. They're the ones that effect your average age. This shouldn't be news to you. If you care about 'average age' then you have no clue about our club or its journey.

Clearly, our future success relies on youth. Youth, by nature, is inconsistent.

I back our core youth against any of the clubs you mention save GWS, Gold Coast and maybe the Dogs.

Your argument smacks of that ridiculous question that is often pondered in the media, "Who's closest to a flag". It's the silliest question you'll ever be asked.

If you're going to use the age of our list as an excuse for effort then our average age is entirely relevant.

[Ungarie boy 233]

It's not all doom and gloom. The injuries to Jetta, Viney, Frost, Kent, Hogan, JKH, Salem, equates to one third of our likely starting 18, If you throw Petrecca and Trengove into the mix and that's nearly half the side. Note that this injury list consist of players where most of the teams significant improvement is going to come from (it's not going to come from the N Jones, L Dunns and D Cross, etc). No side can compete at the same level with such significant losses to their best 18 - How many of the Hawks team were out when they got beaten up by GWS. The dockers rest half a side leading into the finals and get beaten by the bottom side, Sydney rested players going into the finals and get swamped by Richmond. Yes Hawks were without 4 of there staring 18, but that's not even a quarter of the side and realistically, come team performance, they are coming from a far higer base.

It's not all doom and gloom. T MacDonald has been fantastic, L Dunn good (he should be used as the quarterback though, taking advantage of his long penertrating kicks which is far more effective breaking the lines than dinky 20 meter passes) C Garland servicable and provides great flexibility, I even saw J Grimes showed signs of returning confidence (midfield depth). Vanders has shown plenty of potential, Garlett adds spark and Brayshaw looks to be the real thing. That's another third of the starting 18 (grimes excluded) who gives you hope.

It's not all doom and gloom. You can build a team around N Jones, D Tyson, B Vince. Lumumba, Howe brings the intangibles that that seperate the good sides from the successful sides. Cross provides the leadership for development, and onfield coaching the very best sides haves. Again a third of our starting 18.

It's not all doom and gloom. It's not unreasonable to expect at least 3 of Stretch, ANB, Mitchie, Newton, Reilly, O MacDonald, Harmes, Toumpas, to develop nto strong AFL players. Histroy has also shown that at leat one of the likes of Fitzpatrick, Pedersen, Gawn, M Jones, J Watts, Dawes, etc will gain a new/second lease of life and fill roles in a team.

Note: every premiership team consist of players who I refer to as 'stealing a premiership' which are at best depth players think Steve Armstrong - West Coast, Mitch Morton - Swans. Depth is a requirement - the entire squad will not be all A grade or even B grade players.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Ungarie boy